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Didn't read past traits due to time and all this has probably already been talked about a thousand time I guess but :

Jink : It's "meh" because you have it on shooty elements which can't shoot if they advance unless you pay 1CP. So it's ok to use on one unit per turn. Still nice to have of course if you need the extra resilience and don't need to shoot, like a dark shroud or if you need to grab an objective.

Inner circle : It's "meh" for small units because of grim resolve + ATSKNF. It's ok-ish on the big ones.

Grim Resolve : It's ok, nothing extraordinary. There is a lot of stuff in a marine/DA army that wants to move (maybe less now with bolter discipline). Losing max one miniature to moral is nice but it's also on top of ATSKNF. Kinda same issue than inner circle. It's not bad, it's just more of the same (some models have 3 moral mitigating rules...)

Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).

Master of Manoeuvre : I don't think DA is a stand & shoot army. And DA kinda has a decent amount of element able to use this trait (for some reason you want to deepstrike termies and charge ? Maybe you should have a master of manoeuvre nearby)

dhallnet wrote:

Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).

The problem with that one is the need for the warlord to charge, be charged or execute a heroic intervention

Brilliant Strategist does not grant a free CP. That's an Azrael-specific thing. The trait lets you gain a CP on a 5+, and it gives you a free reroll of a hit, wound, or save roll. Still the best trait in the book hands down.

And in the Stratagems, you can't forget one of the most useful ones Dark Angels have access to: Intractable. If you have a powerful unit like Hellblasters or a Land Raider that got locked in combat and had to fall back, being able to spend 2 CP to let them still shoot is cash money.

Now, as for LVO results:
Aaron Wisch had the highest finish of all the DA primary lists, coming in 68th. He faced a variety of opponents, including Drukhari, Marines, Tau, and Imperial Knights, and his only loss was to an Eldar Soup list with 3 Alaitoc flyers in it. He had one draw against Knights with Custodes Jetbike Captains and the Loyal 32 for a final record of 4-1-1. Not too shabby for a mid-tier army!

Shaun Sharp's DA Dreads with Guard Support was the next best DA list, with a 4-2 record. He finished 136th. His losses were to Eldar Soup and a weird Space Wolves list with a Falchion in it. Still a pretty strong showing to go 4-2 in the most competitive environment imaginable.

None of the other DA lists did better than 3-3, and most went 2-4. Alaitoc Flyers seemed to be the bane of most of the lists, as from what I could tell only one of the DA players who faced them won their game. This makes sense really, as our best damage dealers are plasma weapons and they don't like all the negative hit modifiers at all. I went through and took notes on what armies each DA player faced and which they won against to try to figure out what we consistently struggle against, but really the data was inconclusive other than the Alaitoc flyer thing (but let's be honest they give a lot of armies fits). I might also say we tend to do well against other Marines (loyalist and Chaos), but then Marines in general aren't the pinnacle of the game currently.

 Vector Strike wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).

The problem with that one is the need for the warlord to charge, be charged or execute a heroic intervention

Note that much of an issue when you're planning to make use of it but yeah, it's not an "always on" aura.

I am in the middle of a six-round Club Championships with forty players. My 2000 point list has:

Battalion: Azrael, Primaris Lt, 2 x Intercessor Squads, 1 x Scout Squad, 1 x Devastator Squad, 1 x Aggressor Squad and 1 x Hellblaster Squad (nine dudes)
Outrider (Ravenwing Attack Sqn) - Sammael, Talonmaster, Black Knigts x 9, Dark Shroud, Attack Bike

Game 1 vs Admech. He had a Knight and two Armigers; an Iron Hands Battalion with three squads and an Admech force with Cawl, two walkers and four Robots. The first game was for kill points and included random Ambulls appearing and attacking. I went first and dropped both of his Armigers with the Black Knights and Hellblasters. In Turn 2 I dropped his Knight but he brought it back with two wounds. I finished off the Knight in Turn 3 along with his tactical marines. After four turns I was nestled in a corner. He wounded my Hellblasters and Black Knights but both units were alive and I could play keep-away against his robots securing the win. The Ravenwing Stratagem from Vigilus was handy in allowing my Black Knights to supercharge without fear.

Game 2 vs Orks. He had three big Boyz (Evil Sunz), Bad Moons artillery and a massive unit of Lootas screened by Grots. This game ended on turn 1 when his Lootas wiped out both my Hellblasters and Black Knights. I hadn't met the new Lootas. They can put out an eye-watering amount of damage about which you can really do nothing. I have to rethink my list/strategy if I continue to face lists like this! You can't turtle behind terrain as you get swamped. You can't sit in the open either! Those Grots keep the Lootas alive. Ah well.

Game 3 vs Necrons. He had three battalions of Necrons with plenty of supporting characters. We were playing a mission with "supply crates" that you had to capture (and could move) over a snow-filled terrain that slowed movement by 2 inches. The first turn was a little ropey, but Sammael and the Talonmaster hit their stride and started deleting units.

The Hellblasters and Black Knights were great in the first game against high-wound targets but a bit of a liability against the more "hordey" lists I then faced. Sammael and the Talonmaster are great. I am eying a Supreme Command with Sammael and two Talonmasters...

Three more games tomorrow. The missions are really funky (one has a NPC Warhound Titan) and you don't really know what to expect. There are three other Dark Angels players in the tourney.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

None of the other DA lists did better than 3-3, and most went 2-4. Alaitoc Flyers seemed to be the bane of most of the lists, as from what I could tell only one of the DA players who faced them won their game. This makes sense really, as our best damage dealers are plasma weapons and they don't like all the negative hit modifiers at all. I went through and took notes on what armies each DA player faced and which they won against to try to figure out what we consistently struggle against, but really the data was inconclusive other than the Alaitoc flyer thing (but let's be honest they give a lot of armies fits). I might also say we tend to do well against other Marines (loyalist and Chaos), but then Marines in general aren't the pinnacle of the game currently.

That's why you can't rely solely on plasma for heavy duty for DAs. You have to figure hard to hit flyers will be present and plan accordingly.

So, I've seen people take supporting knights for their marine armies, but I haven't seen anyone take House Mortan. A simple Crusader with RFBC, Avenger Gatling (preferably Endless Fury) can play a 1CP strat that ignores all modifiers when shooting. So the often -3 to hit CHEs would still be hit on 3's. Same for Skyweavers etc. No Aeldari platform can take that many hits, not when they max at T6. Of course, you have the issue of Agents of Vect, which might just give them the time they need to take the knight down with haywire before that strat could be utilized. Other downside is that it is Imperialis instead of Mechanicus so has no defence vs the mortal wound output.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am in the middle of a six-round Club Championships with forty players. My 2000 point list has:

Battalion: Azrael, Primaris Lt, 2 x Intercessor Squads, 1 x Scout Squad, 1 x Devastator Squad, 1 x Aggressor Squad and 1 x Hellblaster Squad (nine dudes)
Outrider (Ravenwing Attack Sqn) - Sammael, Talonmaster, Black Knigts x 9, Dark Shroud, Attack Bike

Game 1 vs Admech. He had a Knight and two Armigers; an Iron Hands Battalion with three squads and an Admech force with Cawl, two walkers and four Robots. The first game was for kill points and included random Ambulls appearing and attacking. I went first and dropped both of his Armigers with the Black Knights and Hellblasters. In Turn 2 I dropped his Knight but he brought it back with two wounds. I finished off the Knight in Turn 3 along with his tactical marines. After four turns I was nestled in a corner. He wounded my Hellblasters and Black Knights but both units were alive and I could play keep-away against his robots securing the win. The Ravenwing Stratagem from Vigilus was handy in allowing my Black Knights to supercharge without fear.

Game 2 vs Orks. He had three big Boyz (Evil Sunz), Bad Moons artillery and a massive unit of Lootas screened by Grots. This game ended on turn 1 when his Lootas wiped out both my Hellblasters and Black Knights. I hadn't met the new Lootas. They can put out an eye-watering amount of damage about which you can really do nothing. I have to rethink my list/strategy if I continue to face lists like this! You can't turtle behind terrain as you get swamped. You can't sit in the open either! Those Grots keep the Lootas alive. Ah well.

Game 3 vs Necrons. He had three battalions of Necrons with plenty of supporting characters. We were playing a mission with "supply crates" that you had to capture (and could move) over a snow-filled terrain that slowed movement by 2 inches. The first turn was a little ropey, but Sammael and the Talonmaster hit their stride and started deleting units.

The Hellblasters and Black Knights were great in the first game against high-wound targets but a bit of a liability against the more "hordey" lists I then faced. Sammael and the Talonmaster are great. I am eying a Supreme Command with Sammael and two Talonmasters...

Three more games tomorrow. The missions are really funky (one has a NPC Warhound Titan) and you don't really know what to expect. There are three other Dark Angels players in the tourney.

Yes lootas are damn scary on an ork force now, especially vs our bikes. However i would suggest the following assuming you wish to keep with the theme...

Whirlwinds with castellen launchers (as in 2 or 3 of them). Putting out 4d6-6d6 shots at str 6 will do some work thanks to no los and range vs orks/hordes.
Bikes. Regular bolter bikes. Squad of 8 comes in at 184, 186 if you give the srg a storm bolter. They will put out 36 shots, rerolling thanks to sam, at 24".

Between the 2 options you kill the grots first with one (whirlwinds eat grots alive) then the bikes can get up 24" from the lootas and unload. Between them and Sams attacks thats 36 str 4, 12 str 6 ap-1, and 6 str 5 ap-1 hits. If that doesn't kill the lootas then i don't know what will, they dont have good armor. And honestly lootas lose a lot of effectiveness once they lose boys. 12 lootas = needs to die. 4 lootas = they can die later.

Alternatively you could try flaming biker missiles..... squads of 3 bikers with flamers / combi flamers. 89 pts for 3d6 auto hits, that should do some work vs grots.

Or trip land speeder heavy flamers, moving 20"+d6 for advance and putting out 6d6 str 5 ap-1 auto hits (speed of the raven) could wipe the grots off as well, as well as the toughness of 3 t5, 6w, 3+/4++ speeders sitting infront of the lootas, but thats really expensive for what it does and is basing units of index which may not be very smart going forward.

But either way, kill the grots then kill the lootas, it doesnt get more direct than that

Azuza001 wrote:
But either way, kill the grots then kill the lootas, it doesnt get more direct than that

This. There are a few things to know about the grot shields.

Grot Shield 1CP
Use this Stratagem after a <CLAN> INFANTRY unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time a model from that unit loses a wound if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <CLAN> GRETCHIN INFANTRY models within 6" of it, and the GRETCHIN unit is closer to the attacking model than the target. On a 2+ the original model does not lose that wound but one model in that GRETCHIN unit (your choice) is slain. Otherwise, the model loses the wound as normal.

* The grot that is being used to shield must be a member of the same clan as the loota. A lot of ork players will bring multiple clans, and make sure they are not shucking off wounds to invalid grots.
* The grots have to be closer to your shooter to be used as shields. Normally this is not a problem as the ork player will line the lootas up on the back edge of the board and screen the board with lootas. Also make sure that your opponent does not pull grots from a squad that's within 6" but is actually further than your intended target.
* This stratagem can only be used once a turn. If you go first and the lootas have not mobbed up, you can target the 10 man squad, let him pop grot shield, then switch your shooting to the 15 man loota squad.
* The grots will likely be screened out. In order to use a KFF, the entire unit must be within 9" of the big mek. If even one grot is out of range, the KFF won't protect the unit. They will probably have that grot be the first casualty, but still...
* Grots have a 4LD. Unless there is a warboss around to 'break eads', to kill a 10 grot unit, you need to kill 7 of them. They lowest they can roll is a 1, which would wipe the rest casualties. As the loota trick devours CPs, your opponent will likely have lots of 10 grot squads.
* If you shoot the lootas, you are facing a T4 target and possibly a 5++. While 1/6 of the shots will pluck off a loota, a T4 weapon is wounding grots on a 2+. 15 bolter shots (2/3 to hit * 5/6 to wound * 5/6 failed save) = 7 dead grots. If you are using intercessors, and you stood still you will need roughly 12 bolt rifle shots to hit your magic number of 7 dead grots. When bolter discipline becomes an official rule, intercessors will be pure gold.

Thanks for the tips regarding the Grots and Lootas fellas! I focused on the Boyz when I should have at least tried to dent the Lootas.

Finished the six-round Tourney today.

Game 4 - Custodes. He had a squad of Dawn Eagles, a Captain dude on a Dawn Eagle a Hover Tank, a Dread, Vexilla, three squads of Custodes and Wardens. We played a mission where two objectives appeared each turn that also dished out Mortal Wounds...I won the roll-off to go first and hammered one flank. I used the Signal the Attack Stratagem after Sammael inflicted two wounds on the Dawn Eagles. Nine super-charging/WFtDA Black Knights did the rest. The Devastators got the Hover Tank to one wound. He laid everything into my Black Knights over the next two rounds and wiped them out, but in the meantime I killed everything except two Custodes dudes. Result - Win. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation and Stratagem from Vigilus was game-changing for this battle. I have faced plenty of Custodes over the past year and I have to admit that I have thought long and hard about how to kill them - should have invested some of those thoughts into how to deal with Ork Lootas...

Game 5 - Imperial Guard with Custodes. This was a Kill Points mission and my opponents Astra Militarum (Cadian) Brigade with a Custodes Supreme Command Detachment (three Dawn Eagle Captains and a Vexilla) and a small Black Templars Battalion with Scouts and Techmarines with Conversion Beamers. He had something like 33 units which was a liability in Kill Points. By the end of the first turn I had killed enough small units to vritually guarantee a win. His Dawn Eagle Captains raced up alone to deal with my Black Knights. One Black Knight escaped and my army wiped out the exposed Dawn Eagles on Turn 2. After that it was mopping up. Result - Win.

Game 6 Death Guard/Nurgles on a crazy Daemon World mission. He had Mortarian, some character dudes, cultists, a nine-man Terminator Squad, three PBCs and a Daemon Prince. He also had that tree thing. I went first and piled everything into Mortarian. He rolled saves very well, but it was his Disgustingly Resilient saves that left me facing an uphill battle (a total of five unsaved wounds). He wiped out my Black Knights. I was able to kill Morty on turn 2, but by then I was behind on Kill Points. In the end I killed Morty, the Demon Prince and the Terminators but he had killed twice that in units. Result - loss.

So I went 4-2 and was playing the final round against the guy who won the battle points portion of the tourney - not bad! I came 8th overall out of 40 - my painting is good, but not nearly as good as the folks in the top! I will play a different list next time (maybe Deathwing?), but if I ran this again tomorrow I would likely drop three Black Knights (to six man from a nine-man Squadron) and get a little more dakka. The nine-man Squadron could really put out the pain, but it was a little unwieldy and actually quite vulnerable. The list dealt with Knights both in the tourney and in practice matches. The Aggressors surprised almost every opponent. Working with Azrael they are quite useful for the points. We used the Beta Bolter rules and I really like Intercessors now.

Anyhoo, thanks for reading!

Hi all!
I’m planning to go with the following list to a tourney and it would be great to get some feedback.
There are no tactical missions (cards) in use but to score it is important to be on different places on the board at the end of each round.

Total pts.: 1499
Power level: 96
CP: 9
Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment – 342 Pts. (PL 24)
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Bolt pistol, Force stave -> 8 Pkt.
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Mind Wipe -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 120 Pts. (PL 7)

Techmarine [WARLORD]
+ Storm bolter, Chainsword, Servo-arm -> 2 Pkt.
+ Warlordtrait: Brilliant Strategist (DA) -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 47 Pts. (PL 4)

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 55 Pts. (PL 4)

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 55 Pts. (PL 4)

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 65 Pts. (PL 5)

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 1157 Pts. (PL 72)
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - - - > 183 Pts. (PL 10)

*************** 6 Fast Attack ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - - - > 138 Pts. (PL 7)

3 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - - - > 114 Pts. (PL 7)

4 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 152 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

The Outrider detach. Will be the RW Attack squadron.
Thx in advance!
Regards

So, there was a leak of the enw psy=powers from Shadowspear: https://www.facebook.com/hexfleetvirules/photos/a.406250459567598/1061316354061002/?type=3&theater

The buffs can only target Phobos characters, thus limiting their effect.

- Shrouding makes a unit only targetable for shooting if it's the closest and visible. This will probably be good with Infiltrators flanking a position and taking an objective while other things (like a Knight or bikes) zoom towards the enemy, or Eliminators when you'll need them alive in your next turn.
- Scryer's Gaze lets ranged weapons to re-roll hits and ignore cover. This is quite good on everything from Shadowspear - but especially Eliminators; however, the main target would be Infiltrators, because you want those saucy 6s!
- Temporar Corridor is basically Warptime, but you HAVE to Advance (at 3d6, discard 2 lowest). Perhaps for Linebreaker or catching an objective (no Phobos weaponry is Assault, so wouldn't be able to shoot anyway)

The debuffs are quite awesome!
- Hallucination makes the enemy lose 1 Ld and you roll 2d6 against its Ld; if you roll higher, it has -1 to hit. This goes REALLY well with Aversion and Darkshroud. We can make a Castellan to hit only on a 6, muhahaha! The icing on the cake is following it with Mind Wipe.
- Tenebrous Curse only works on non-Fly units. They suffer a mortal wound and halve their movement/charge/advance. Great against melee folks like GSC and Orks. It's very situational.
- Mind Raid does a mortal wound and, if you target an enemy character, you get 1 command point if you roll 3D6 (yes, THREE) and surpass the model's Ld. Goes nicely with Brillaint Strategist WT and, again, Hallucination.

So, what are your thoughts?

(Sadly, Suppressors don't have PHOBOS)

Maxamato wrote:
Hi all!
I’m planning to go with the following list to a tourney and it would be great to get some feedback.
There are no tactical missions (cards) in use but to score it is important to be on different places on the board at the end of each round.

Total pts.: 1499
Power level: 96
CP: 9
Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment – 342 Pts. (PL 24)
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Bolt pistol, Force stave -> 8 Pkt.
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Mind Wipe -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 120 Pts. (PL 7)

Techmarine [WARLORD]
+ Storm bolter, Chainsword, Servo-arm -> 2 Pkt.
+ Warlordtrait: Brilliant Strategist (DA) -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 47 Pts. (PL 4)

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 55 Pts. (PL 4)

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 55 Pts. (PL 4)

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 65 Pts. (PL 5)

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 1157 Pts. (PL 72)
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - - - > 183 Pts. (PL 10)

*************** 6 Fast Attack ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - - - > 138 Pts. (PL 7)

3 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - - - > 114 Pts. (PL 7)

4 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 152 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

5 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon
+ , Corvus hammer -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 190 Pts. (PL 12)

The Outrider detach. Will be the RW Attack squadron.
Thx in advance!
Regards

Most tournaments right now limit datasheets to 3 of the same type (i.e. you could only take 3 units of Black Knights). I would check with your tournament if they are following that rule. You could reorganize the black knights into 3 units, since the unit limit is 9 knights/unit.

Argh, thx for the hint!
Totally forgot, Rules of 3 apply.

I've tried to sift through the Shadowspear info but have not been able to determine how or if Dark Angels will be able to use the new Primaris. Anyone been able to find something out? Does the Mini Codex in the box give something about how to use the new models in non Codex Adeptus Astartes forces?

Focus article from Tuesday showed the infiltrators in SW, BA, and DA paint schemes. You probably just take them like any other unit in the codex.

For even more lolz, combo the new -1 to hit power with not just Aversion but the similar Space Wolves power from an allied Rune Priest! I already love the DA/SW debuff combo, and it just got even better.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
For even more lolz, combo the new -1 to hit power with not just Aversion but the similar Space Wolves power from an allied Rune Priest! I already love the DA/SW debuff combo, and it just got even better.

"Hey, that Castellan of yours, what's it good for?"
"Well, it has a Volcano Ca-"
"It was a rethoric question. It now shoots at 7+ against anything near this Darkshroud."
"We are now enemies for life!"

Just played in a 10-man tournament yesterday, using the Adepticon Championship missions. I ended up going 1-1-1, losing to a list with Drukhari and Alaitoc, getting a draw vs. Orks, and soundly crushing an Ultramarines all-Primaris list (with Bobby G). My list was the typical Azrael Hellblaster gunline, with 19 Hellblasters surrounding Azrael, a Lieutenant, a Primaris Ancient, and a Darkshroud. I also had a Talonmaster, 2 Dark Talons, some Ravenwing bikers and scouts as troops. The Ravenwing units were in an Outrider detachment for which I did spend the CP to make it a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. It only really came in handy against the Orks when I used the +1 to hit strat for my Talonmaster to counteract the penalty for moving with heavy weapons. He mulched a lot of Boyz before he went down in that game. In the first game I did take the Monster Slayer of Caliban on my Talonmaster and it did come in handy when he charged a couple of different vehicles (a Razorwing and a Venom). +1 to wound is nice vs. vehicles.

My takeaways from the day:
-I know I seem to flip-flop on my opinion of the Azrael bomb, but it is actually solid. Its main weakness is the lack of mobility, which is what cost me in the first game and probably the reason DA struggle against Eldar a lot. The Hellblasters melt a lot of stuff if they get the chance.
-Dark Talons continue to be amazing. I ran two of them for the first time, and they absolutely performed (less so in game 1, but even then they weren't a total flub). Just stay away from anything with strong auto-hit weapons, as they will wreck a Dark Talon fairly easily.
-The Eye of the Unseen may be a hidden gem in our codex. It really didn't accomplish anything in the tournament this time, but things like Harlequin Solitaires or Assassins would hate to get caught by it (forced to hit last when in the middle of some somewhat annoyed Hellblasters...)
-Speed of the Raven was probably my strat of the day, even more so than Weapons from the Dark Age. Being able to advance and still shoot and charge with a Ravenwing unit is huge. Really increases the threat range of a Dark Talon or Talonmaster.
-The Ravenwing Attack Squadron specialist detachment is good, but not a must take. I'll probably skip it next time and use the CP (and change some stuff in the list) to stick in an Assassin instead. If you are running more Ravenwing than I was, it's worth it though.
-When choosing a character to take a relic, it is worth taking your free relic on something other than a Talonmaster. That way if you have the RAS detachment you can spend a CP to choose which sword you want him to have. Monster Slayer > Heavenfall Blade vs. a vehicle/monster heavy list, but not as good vs. hordes of regular joes. Of course if you are running multiple Talonmasters you should probably take both relic swords!

Nice work ZergSmasher.

I'm painting up a second Dark Talon for an upcoming tournament so glad to read it can still perform.

Agreed on Speed of the Raven - so much utility!

Thanks for sharing

Is there a reason for not running Sammael in Sableclaw? In my games he combo'ed really well with the Talonmaster. Sammael, Talonmaster, Dark Shroud and Dark Talon are basically must takes for me.

 Crimson_ wrote:
Is there a reason for not running Sammael in Sableclaw? In my games he combo'ed really well with the Talonmaster. Sammael, Talonmaster, Dark Shroud and Dark Talon are basically must takes for me.

In the Index days it was more sensible to take Sammael on Corvex. With the change to Sableclaw in the Codex there is not really a reason to take Corvex. If you are spending that many points spend a little more for some real firepower!. Surround Sammael in Sableclaw and a Talonmaster in cheap troops and let their firepower do the heavy lifting.

@Zergsmasher,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also keep coming back to the Azrael/Hellblaster/Ancient list. I've spent a few months also using Black Knight squads to gain mobility and hard hitting firepower. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron is a nice counter to those dreaded -1 to hit armies out there that make us hesitate to Supercharge our plasma. The Black Knights are a little unwieldy when you run nine in one squad, but at least they can manoeuvre.

I've had good success with Eye of the Unseen on a Ravenwing Champion. Made at least two Smash Captains cry in a tourney last spring (different games) that were trying to assasinate Sammael.

I tried out a Deathwing-heavy list on Saturday against Eldar soup (Drukhari with Alaitoc). I regret to report that they are still not getting it done. The DW Knights were tanky and killy, but they couldn't be everywhere! Terminators need a redesign.

Does anyone have experience running a Forgeworld Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought? On paper he seems to pair well with Deathwing Knights (+1 strength means wounding Knights on 3's) and has the benefit of being a character with less than 10 wounds. He also has a WS of 2 so arming him with the twin Lascannons can be strong.

abyrn wrote:
Does anyone have experience running a Forgeworld Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought? On paper he seems to pair well with Deathwing Knights (+1 strength means wounding Knights on 3's) and has the benefit of being a character with less than 10 wounds. He also has a WS of 2 so arming him with the twin Lascannons can be strong.

I don't have experience running him with DA but he tends to be a melee monster that either forms a terrifying roadblock that keeps the enemy from wanting to close, or as a rear line fighter than hops in wherever the melee is worse and start wailing away. You are paying a lot of points for all that melee potential just to get the BS2 for lascannons. Might be better of saving the points and having a normal venerable dreadnought or even springing for one of the other relic (forgeworld) dreadnoughts.

I thought about using normal venerable dreadnoughts but there is a guy in my local meta that tends to run 6 to 9 talos with haywire blasters... so any vehicle that pops it's head out gets destroyed immediately. It is expensive and I would rather bring more lascannons but the character keyword is tempting me.

ranged weapons on chap dread is a trap. keep it melee-focused

Got a question for the group. Now that shadowspear is out I think the DA have some secret tech around trepidation power. I struggling to build a list around this combo involving trepidation. Phobos Libby with the hallucination and temporal corridor powers, a DA libby with mind wipe and trepidation, a Int. Chaplin with eye of the unseen and a squad of reivers. With this combo and assuming all powers go off the enemy unit is -5 leadership going into trep. The tricky parts of this is getting the reivers and chaplin within 3" of the target. Any suggestions on what to build around this?

Combo with Mind Wipe, maybe take a third Libby for the strat for +2 to cast? The Chaplain can take a jump pack to get in range, as for the Reivers, they might be a trap in this case, I don't know how to get them close.

Mind wipe was already factored in. Reivers are easy to get into range thanks to the temporal corridor power. you get to move them even if they deepstrike in. I totally forgot about that +2 to cast stratagem. so what do you build around this to make it viable in a competitive setting? standard ravenwing list or Azrael castle?

I don't think you can cast Temporal Corridor on a unit that used deepstrike, per the FAQ for Warptime. Other than that, I think that Ravenwing would be better because they can keep up with the rest of the force, but the Azrael bubble will provide better fire support.

I feel like that's a gimmick with too many moving parts to work well. That being said, if you skip the Reivers and the Chappy and just go with the -1 leadership powers and then cast Trephination, it should still work well enough.

Personally, I want to try running the Phobos libby with a regular DA libby and a SW Rune Priest for the combo of Hallucination, Aversion and Tempest's Wrath (potential -3 to hit on one unit or -1 on three different units). Throw in a Darkshroud and maybe the Mind Wipe power and you can really stack up the negative hit modifiers.