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 Reivax26 wrote:
You think that they are better than Black Knights?

There much better than black Knights 3 wounds each can drop in when you need them so they won't get shot of the board turn 1 more shots (if you roll well)

 Reivax26 wrote:
You think that they are better than Black Knights?

Yes. Double damage output in average, now +1W and are safe in space before engaging.

Hmm. So running a big squad of Inceptors being led by our Smash Captain with a relic mace might not be a bad setup.

Interesting

 Reivax26 wrote:
Hmm. So running a big squad of Inceptors being led by our Smash Captain with a relic mace might not be a bad setup.

Interesting

I like two squads of 3 myself drop 1 unit in following turn drop the other unit in

The inceptors are also infantry with Fly so they don't get stuck behind terrain and models. While the 20" max move of the bikes is nice, it's rare you get to use all 20" since you have to go over/around terrain and around other units.

And they can fall back and shoot w/o spending CP.

 Reivax26 wrote:
You think that they are better than Black Knights?

Ever one-rounded a Forgeworld Tantalus with Black Knights? Becuase I've done it with a Plasma Inceptors. Taking 400 points off the table during a deep strike is a pretty high bar to pass.

Black Knights look cooler, but bikers aren't great this edition - with their speed mititgated by all the deep striking units and their weapons often driving up the per model cost to silly levels given the actual damage output.

Black Knight (not a big fan, personally) have a 20" move with aa 4++ whilst hitting on 4+ with plasma and being able to charge for 1 CP (and, with Vigilus detachment and more CP, retreat before retaliation and shoot/charge again next turn).

It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).

 Cybtroll wrote:
Black Knight (not a big fan, personally) have a 20" move with aa 4++ whilst hitting on 4+ with plasma and being able to charge for 1 CP (and, with Vigilus detachment and more CP, retreat before retaliation and shoot/charge again next turn).

It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).

BKs will be hitting on 3s with SotR strat, and will get full rerolls because Sammy, rather than reroll 1s for Inceptors (due to drop captain). We can still use the Phobos Lt for +1 to hit on Inceptors but it will get changed at some point like regular marines, just a case of when.

I have 6 Inceptors to build for my DAs and will look forward to trying them out with a Deathwing drop too. However, Black Knights also got a slight buff with Shock Assault which is almost the same as a free Ravenwing Ancient (nice savings of 112pts).

Black Knights will nearly always be your opponent's first target. Can't shoot Inceptors if they're not on the board.

That said, against armies without a lot of long range shooting, it's best to start them on the board and screen with literally everything else in your army. If your Inceptors and a Captain are your last units alive, you can still win. They're that good.

Maybe... But deep strike still means losing a turn, subjecting yourself to the opponent positioning (and with half of your range already lost in deep strike you will have to fight nail and there to create an opening towards juicy target), plus risking some intercept stratagems...
(BK have a threat range of 38" and can stay 1" of a screen hitting on 4 without any stratagem or support, but with a riskier overload. And they still have better stratagems and synergies).

Inceptors have the same exact range, more point for model (the recent extra wound probably keep them more in line with what they should be) random shots with the same profile, almost half the movement (albeit with Fly) and no invulnerable save (unless Azrael maybe?).

There are marginal situation (Planet Bowling Ball, Cities of Death, specific missions) and armies (all Space Marine with the new Doctrines) where I can see the usefulness of Inceptorsand their Deep Strike.
But since Dark Angel have the Black Knight, I think it's more of a rhetoric question which is better.

And, by the way, with the recent changes to Marine I suppose a squad of Plasma Gun Veteran in a Drop Pod is probably better for a plasma strike with Damage 3 (higher range, lesser price, more shot, pod protect against intercept and they now arrive on Turn 1).

Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.

Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.

Auspex Scan and the stuff like them can only shoot the Pod, not the squad. That was in one of the FAQs

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.

Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.

Speed of the Raven and no more problems with taking an additional penalty for overcharging after advancing.

It's probably not optimal, but had anyone determined how many BKs can be protected by Azrael's bubble? At least during deployment that seems like a good idea. With not needing to get into rapid fire range, maybe pairing them with Sammael is a red herring.

Zustiur wrote:
It's probably not optimal, but had anyone determined how many BKs can be protected by Azrael's bubble? At least during deployment that seems like a good idea. With not needing to get into rapid fire range, maybe pairing them with Sammael is a red herring.

I expect you could get a whole squad of 10 into his bubble. All each model has to do is touch the 6" range, so you could probably form a circle of them surrounding Azzy if necessary. That's only really good for protecting them on the first turn though, as if you keep them next to Azzy you might as well take Hellblasters since you're throwing away their maneuverability, and Hellblasters are cheaper and have better guns. Sammael is still the way to go with BKs if you want the rerolls (and trust me, you do!).

On the subject of Inceptors, how much did their cost drop in the new Codex: Space Marines? I'm hoping that GW remembers that the non-Codex chapters should get the same updates for the same units and gets around to amending our points costs for everything, so I'm curious as to what will change on that front.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.

Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.

Speed of the Raven and no more problems with taking an additional penalty for overcharging after advancing.

Ooooh yeah. Reading the FAQ FTW

 Cybtroll wrote:
It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).

Most, if not all, of those intercept-like abilities are limited to 12". Inceptors can fire at 18".

 ZergSmasher wrote:


On the subject of Inceptors, how much did their cost drop in the new Codex: Space Marines? I'm hoping that GW remembers that the non-Codex chapters should get the same updates for the same units and gets around to amending our points costs for everything, so I'm curious as to what will change on that front.

Only the bolter ones became cheaper. They're a bit more than 120p now.

With any unit that Deep Strike you always have to subtract 9" to have a realistic idea of the effective threat range.
So, it's irrelevant if you can intercept at 12" and Interceptors shoot 18"... unless you are able to Deep Strike near to your primary target (which is more an exception than the rule).

Deep Strike is a defensive ability, not an offensive one.

I might disagree with the idea that Deep Strike is defensive. A big squad of Deathwing Terminators landing and using Deathwing Assault is very offensive in nature.

Or so my opponents seem to think as they are taking heaps of minis off the board

Any thoughts on what new Psychic powers our Librarians might get?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Any thoughts on what new Psychic powers our Librarians might get?

None whatsoever would be my guess. I could see them improving a couple of ours (for instance, vanilla Marines now have a straight-up better version of Trephination). And we will probably keep access to the Obscuration ones for the Phobos libby.

It would be nice if we could have Ravenwing Librarians who could throw out a cloud over a squad that would make them harder to hit. That way we wouldn't have to take Darkshrouds in every Ravenwing list.

 Reivax26 wrote:
It would be nice if we could have Ravenwing Librarians who could throw out a cloud over a squad that would make them harder to hit. That way we wouldn't have to take Darkshrouds in every Ravenwing list.

Or at least group around a single shroud

I was looking through the NOVA Open lists to see if anyone was running pure Dark Angels, and it looks like there are a few (no names I recognize though). Some of the lists weren't showing up in the BCP app, though. If people are interested I could post them tomorrow afternoon or something.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I was looking through the NOVA Open lists to see if anyone was running pure Dark Angels, and it looks like there are a few (no names I recognize though). Some of the lists weren't showing up in the BCP app, though. If people are interested I could post them tomorrow afternoon or something.

Please do zerg allways interesting to see what people run

Alrighty then, here are the lists I could find for Dark Angels in the NOVA Open GT:

Andres Benitez:

This is an interesting list, and could actually be pretty good. With the recent changes to Inceptors (namely the extra wound), they are cash money, especially if they can get rerolls. Eliminators are really good for Dark Angels too, as since they generally don't move they'll benefit from Grim Resolve and thus not need a Master to reroll 1's to hit, and they can pressure key enemy characters (like Wierdboys, various GSC guys, etc) even out of LOS.

Brian Wilson:

This list, while fun and cool, doesn't seem like a top tier contender to me. It has the Deathwing Party Bus (Land Raider full of Deathwing Knights and support characters), but if that vehicle ever survives turn 1 it will be a miracle, as there's literally only one other big thing on the board to shoot at (the Dread, and it's not very scary). Not sure why you'd want a Smash Captain in Dark Angels either, and Azrael doesn't seem very necessary in this list. I'm sure it looks awesome and would be fun to play, but it really isn't competitive.

Chase Garber:
No list found in BCP

Greg Chiasson:

Classic Azrael Gunline build, with added air support. Normally I prefer to run two Hellblaster units, but since only one can get Weapons from the Dark Age it isn't strictly necessary. I would definitely take a third Dark Talon over the Nephilim though; the Nephilim is generally far inferior. Points could probably also have been saved by dropping the special melee weapons and plasma pistols and stuff and taking a couple more Vets, with a couple of Storm Bolters in that unit. But that's really just nitpicking.

Jason Harriger

Someone actually taking Dark Angels in a soup list! I'm not sure how he plans to get the Arco-flagellants into combat without a metal box to keep them safe, but once they get there, I can tell you that they can really ruin anyone's day thanks to their Trigger Word stratagem and the Missionary. I've been on the receiving end of that before. Also, I'm not sold on Land Speeders, although the Signal the Attack stratagem could help them stay useful, combined with Sammy and the Talonmaster. Keeping them from just dying when anyone points something bigger than a bolter their way is the tricky part.

Kyle Myers:
No list found in BCP

Unfortunately that's all I could find in the BCP app. Some interesting lists there for sure. After the event is over we'll see how everyone did and see if my expectations for them were borne out or if I'm talking out of my ass.

Thanks for that.
Unfortunatly Andres went to a 2-4 ratio.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Alrighty then, here are the lists I could find for Dark Angels in the NOVA Open GT:

Andres Benitez:

Spoiler:

Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Talonmaster
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
9x Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3x Ravenwing Bikers: 2x Flamer, Storm Bolter
Spearhead Detachment: Dark Angels
Librarian: Force Sword, Jump Pack
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles

This is an interesting list, and could actually be pretty good. With the recent changes to Inceptors (namely the extra wound), they are cash money, especially if they can get rerolls. Eliminators are really good for Dark Angels too, as since they generally don't move they'll benefit from Grim Resolve and thus not need a Master to reroll 1's to hit, and they can pressure key enemy characters (like Wierdboys, various GSC guys, etc) even out of LOS.

Brian Wilson:

Spoiler:

Battalion: Dark Angels
Asmodai
Azrael
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
Vanguard Detachment: Dark Angels
Belial
Deathwing Ancient: TH/SS
5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Deathwing Terminators: CML, Watcher in the Dark
Venerable Dreadnought: Heavy Plasma Cannon, DCCW with Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter
Supreme Command: Dark Angels
Ezekiel
Librarian in Phobos Armor
Master: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield

This list, while fun and cool, doesn't seem like a top tier contender to me. It has the Deathwing Party Bus (Land Raider full of Deathwing Knights and support characters), but if that vehicle ever survives turn 1 it will be a miracle, as there's literally only one other big thing on the board to shoot at (the Dread, and it's not very scary). Not sure why you'd want a Smash Captain in Dark Angels either, and Azrael doesn't seem very necessary in this list. I'm sure it looks awesome and would be fun to play, but it really isn't competitive.

Chase Garber:
No list found in BCP

Greg Chiasson:

Spoiler:

Battalion: Dark Angels
Azrael
Sammael in Sableclaw
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
10x Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators, Plasma Pistol
Darkshroud
Air Wing: Dark Angels
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Vanguard: Dark Angels
Primaris Lieutenant: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
3x Company Veterans: 3x Bolters, 3x Bolt Pistols
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Apothecary

Classic Azrael Gunline build, with added air support. Normally I prefer to run two Hellblaster units, but since only one can get Weapons from the Dark Age it isn't strictly necessary. I would definitely take a third Dark Talon over the Nephilim though; the Nephilim is generally far inferior. Points could probably also have been saved by dropping the special melee weapons and plasma pistols and stuff and taking a couple more Vets, with a couple of Storm Bolters in that unit. But that's really just nitpicking.

Jason Harriger

Spoiler:

Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
5x Scouts: 4x Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Tacticals: Combi-flamer
Darkshroud
3x Land Speeders: 3x Typhoon Missile Launcher, 3x Heavy Bolter
Super-heavy Auxiliary: Imperial Knights (House Krast)
Knight Crusader: Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Meltagun, Twin Icarus Autocannon
Battalion: Adepta Sororitas (Valorous Heart)
Canoness: Condemnor Boltgun, Power Sword
Missionary
5x Battle Sisters: 3x Storm Bolter
5x Battle Sisters: 3x Storm Bolter
5x Battle Sisters: 3x Storm Bolter
6 Arco-Flagellants

Someone actually taking Dark Angels in a soup list! I'm not sure how he plans to get the Arco-flagellants into combat without a metal box to keep them safe, but once they get there, I can tell you that they can really ruin anyone's day thanks to their Trigger Word stratagem and the Missionary. I've been on the receiving end of that before. Also, I'm not sold on Land Speeders, although the Signal the Attack stratagem could help them stay useful, combined with Sammy and the Talonmaster. Keeping them from just dying when anyone points something bigger than a bolter their way is the tricky part.

Kyle Myers:
No list found in BCP

Unfortunately that's all I could find in the BCP app. Some interesting lists there for sure. After the event is over we'll see how everyone did and see if my expectations for them were borne out or if I'm talking out of my ass.

Thanks Zerg that first list is the most interesting list a few outside the box lists which is allways nice to see I've got a pair of local torneys coming up in the next few months been playing around with a triple repulsor list.its done ok so far in play testing which I'm happy about hopefully won't be too long till we get a much needed new codex

I am going to be bringing a wacky list to an ITC tournament near me in about a month and a half. I am trying to bring an outside the box army that no one is going to expect.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am going to be bringing a wacky list to an ITC tournament near me in about a month and a half. I am trying to bring an outside the box army that no one is going to expect.

Do tell