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 Vector Strike wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

I know what the changes are, I was more wondering if it hurt the viability of things like Talonmasters, Black Knights, etc.

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With my current models, I wouldn't exactly be building ITC crushing lists but I have the scouts, bikes, and speeders to build a core around. Beyond that I might see what Combined Assault and a couple of units of DWK can do.

Generally I'd consider if going only DA is valid anymore. Having this extra range for 1 turn instead of backup from more effective sources... I'd rather pick something out side of DA which will give me more then rely on this additional range for 1 turn.

I don't think the bonus was never relevant outside of turn 1.
And remember, we never even had doctrines before, so having them is a huge bonus already

TirScath wrote:
Generally I'd consider if going only DA is valid anymore. Having this extra range for 1 turn instead of backup from more effective sources... I'd rather pick something out side of DA which will give me more then rely on this additional range for 1 turn.

Even prior to the Doctrine nerf, sticking with mono DA was not a huge boon as it was with other chapters. Our average doctrine and chapter tactics lends itself to mix with others well as we do lose very little in the scheme of things. Heck we are even somewhat encouraged to mix a wolf unit in.

I played in a team tournament last weekend. We each got 1k so I brought a Deathwing list with 3 Dreadnoughts backing them up. A Deredeo with the Autocannon Battery, Pavaise and then 2 Ven Dreads with twin las and close combat weapons beside them.

They took out multiple units of MSU Intercessors a turn. My buddy brought Space Wolves with Dreads and a Baneblade.

We had a blast. Lost badly to Thousand Sons and Tau team. Lost 2nd game only because the game ended on time. They outscored us but were going to get tabled. Was Aeldari and Genestealer Cult.

3rd game was against Necrons and Raven Guard. We beat the crap out of them.

As far as the new changes are concerned I am going to start running an alpha strike list setup around 3 Drop Pods with as much Plasma as I can load in. With Azrael, LT, and the Ancient there with them. 2 squads of Plasma Vets so even if they jump in front of a character to take a wound, on a 4 up they super charge their Plasma and rapid fire as they die.

I am going to run a Dark Talon and a Jetfighter to help with the initial strike and then 2nd turn Belial and 10 Deathwing Terminators land and wreck 2 squads.

Brothers, what do you think of running the following list?



It's certainly far from an optimized list but the Librarians ensure that 2 of your midfield scoring units won't be shot at, your black knights get into the enemy's face and keep them off objectives, the dark shroud goes where it's needed and keeps important things alive. The other HQs pick off enemy units and the DW Knights and Ancient provide a backfield distraction that demands attention or drops right into the opponents face and kills something you'd rather not deal with.

Are the libs casting anything specific? I would recommend bring one as terminator so he can cast righteous repugnance to buff the Deathwing Knights. I would also drop the 2nd lib for a Ravenwing Apothecary who can help drop the Deathwing Knights up close and provide heals or objective grabbing.

 Smirrors wrote:
Are the libs casting anything specific? I would recommend bring one as terminator so he can cast righteous repugnance to buff the Deathwing Knights. I would also drop the 2nd lib for a Ravenwing Apothecary who can help drop the Deathwing Knights up close and provide heals or objective grabbing.

I think I covered this in the Army List thread. If not feel free to poke me again.

I never understand how lists like yours function. Where's your units for holding home objectives? Where's your anti tank? Yes black Knights have plasma, but in my experience, black Knights die in the first 2 turns. You've got nothing else that can deal with T7+, unless the deathwing Knights are way more effective for you than they are for me

Zustiur wrote:
I never understand how lists like yours function. Where's your units for holding home objectives? Where's your anti tank? Yes black Knights have plasma, but in my experience, black Knights die in the first 2 turns. You've got nothing else that can deal with T7+, unless the deathwing Knights are way more effective for you than they are for me

I can drop scouts onto my backline objectives as easily as I can send them midfield.

Why do I need a ton of anti-tank? Anything that invests too much in armor probably can't beat me on objective control. Also, the Talonmaster + Sammael blob versus T7 3+ goes something like; 54 shots, 50 hits, 19 wounds, 9.5 unsaved wounds (12.67 wounds on T1). That's frightening to a lot of armor, even if I'd rather they shoot at tanks most of the time.

As for RW BKs and their survivability, I've seen them survive disgusting amounts of incoming fire when Transhuman Physiology is used on them and with my CP pool I'll have no issues dropping that on them as needed.

Are you running your DWKs down people's throats with 6" charges from reserves?

None of this is to say that there aren't counters to my list or that it doesn't need changes, I'm already cutting the Librarians for a RW Apothecary plus whatever else I can fit with the leftover points.

Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

I can tell you that 3 Typhoon speeders around Sammy and the Talonmaster can put out some pretty good anti tank.

The trick is to not leave them too exposed in the process because speeders are like paper bags against good anti tank firepower.

TirScath wrote:
Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

Agreed here, what does an Eldar player care when he has 3 Nightspinners, 3 Prisms, 3 Crimson Hunters etc (that's combined, not choose 3 of them?

 bullyboy wrote:

TirScath wrote:
Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

Agreed here, what does an Eldar player care when he has 3 Nightspinners, 3 Prisms, 3 Crimson Hunters etc (that's combined, not choose 3 of them?

In that case, I also put the bikes plasma talons into the tanks and play the objectives. The list has also evolved to have a Smash Master and RW Apothecary to help get the DW Knights where they need to be.

-----

After some initial feedback about my list I've come around to the following. I'm looking for feedback that will further help me refine this into something worth putting on the table.



DW Ancient gets Master of Maneuver for 1 CP so this list really has 11 CP to work with.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


After some initial feedback about my list I've come around to the following. I'm looking for feedback that will further help me refine this into something worth putting on the table.

I like the adjustments you've made for the most part.

Whats with the smash master? If hes supporting the knights I feel like a termie librarian casting righteous and aversion would help the DWK a lot more. A smash cap might have trouble getting into combat effectively.

I dont think you have priced in the Watcher in the Dark on your DWK squad.

If you were to strip the scouts of their cloaks and the helix and downgrade the master to a termie lib, that leaves you with 70 points to get 2 more DWK or RWBK. Just food for thought.

Otherwise it seems to be a flavorful list as you can get while being as competitive as possible.

 Smirrors wrote:
I like the adjustments you've made for the most part.

Whats with the smash master? If hes supporting the knights I feel like a termie librarian casting righteous and aversion would help the DWK a lot more. A smash cap might have trouble getting into combat effectively.

The smash master is there as another anti-tank threat as well as another deep strike option that can start out on the table or in reserves based on the scenario. They also seem pretty popular in a lot of lists so I figured there must be something to having one. I'm also considering spending a CP to get him a master-crafted Thunder Hammer but I'll certainly try him both with an without and see if D4 is worth 1 CP over D3.

I dont think you have priced in the Watcher in the Dark on your DWK squad.

It seems you are correct. I was tweaking points at the end to reach 2,000 and must have miscounted. It's not essential

If you were to strip the scouts of their cloaks and the helix and downgrade the master to a termie lib, that leaves you with 70 points to get 2 more DWK or RWBK. Just food for thought.

I have the bikes to upsize the RWBKs so this is an option if the current form of my list feels a little off.

Otherwise it seems to be a flavorful list as you can get while being as competitive as possible.

That's the goal. Be competitive without just being a flier spam tournament list; be fluffy without giving up that competitive edge.

I have been thinking about trying a board control alpha strike list. It would look something like:

Master in Phobos armor
LT in Phobos
3 5 man Infiltrators
2 Invictors with Incendium Cannon

Azrael
Lt
Chapter Ancient
4 Plasma Vets
3 Plasma Vets
2 10 man Tactical squads with Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Sgt with Combi Plasma
10 man scout Snipers with cloaks
3 drop pods

General idea is that the Phobos characters, Infiltrators and Scouts hold objectives on my side of the board and help with Deep Strike denial.

The drop pods land on whichever flank that's needed with the Invictors sneaking in.

I am going to be proxying it over the next few weeks to see how it does but am pretty optimistic about it.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I have been thinking about trying a board control alpha strike list. It would look something like:

Master in Phobos armor
LT in Phobos
3 5 man Infiltrators
2 Invictors with Incendium Cannon

Azrael
Lt
Chapter Ancient
4 Plasma Vets
3 Plasma Vets
2 10 man Tactical squads with Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Sgt with Combi Plasma
10 man scout Snipers with cloaks
3 drop pods

General idea is that the Phobos characters, Infiltrators and Scouts hold objectives on my side of the board and help with Deep Strike denial.

The drop pods land on whichever flank that's needed with the Invictors sneaking in.

I am going to be proxying it over the next few weeks to see how it does but am pretty optimistic about it.

I can see what it's supposed to do it just seems like there are a few inefficient choices made along the way.

That 10 man Tactical squad with all of its upgrades and a drop pod costs 223 points. That's steep for both their survivability and their ability to kill other units. On top of it all, you've limited where you can drop to places where the pod and 10 marines can fit instead of just needing to fit 10 models that can get there without a pod.

Swapping them for two units of 7 infiltrators saves 138 points, which could get you a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons to make up for the plasma you lost in those tac squads. Those 7 infiltrators are also almost as survivable as the tacs against D2 weapons and more survivable against D1 weapons.

I've already been toying with a similar type of list, just going for ground control like that. Slightly inspired by a Blood Angels list run by a friend of mine, except DA don't get Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. The main thing I was thinking was double Batallion with Scouts in one and decent-sized units of Intercessors in the other, and a bunch of our special characters to buff them. Especially Asmodai for the +1A to give those Intercessors 4 attacks on the charge (5 for Sergeants, don't forget the hammers!). Azrael could give a bunch of them a 4++ and full rerolls to hit too. For dealing with larger targets, some Ravenwing characters could use Combined Assault to bring in a big unit of Deathwing Knights.

Just something I've been kicking around in my head for the last couple of weeks.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

The smash master is there as another anti-tank threat as well as another deep strike option that can start out on the table or in reserves based on the scenario. They also seem pretty popular in a lot of lists so I figured there must be something to having one. I'm also considering spending a CP to get him a master-crafted Thunder Hammer but I'll certainly try him both with an without and see if D4 is worth 1 CP over D3.

While he sounds good on paper, in practice I think you will find he wont be as effective as he is with other chapters. Other chapters have ways of buffing their captains ability to make a charge or buff their hitting ability all of which DA do not have. At best he is used as a counter charger as deep striking is really not a good enough option with only a 50% success rate. 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s rerolling 1's is really underwhelming against many high value targets particularly ones with invulns. You really have to commit to using the 3cp strat honor the chapter to get any mileage out of him. If you do bring him then you really need the relic upgrade as you are likely to only get 2 or 3 wounds through. The 12 damage (from 3 attacks) is likely to kill something light like a flyer but less likely to hurt a knight which is what you kind of want and need him to do (that is what a blood angels smash cap is capable of doing in comparison).

The Terminator Lib on the other hand really increases the value to your Knights for relatively cheap cost.

I also tested the Smash Master a few weeks ago and he was super underwhelming in my matches. I brought him as "Insurance" to protect and travel with 2 Executioners. Game 1, he killed an Impulsor (97pts) and died shortly after. Game 2, he babysat a backfield objective the whole game. Game 3 he died to Overwatch from 2 Centurions (thats what we get for not being able to deny overwatch). Obviously anecdotal but its about par for what you would expect to do on the table top.

Regarding Smash Master:
What you can do is:
- Give him the Stratagem “Inner Circle”, so he gets the DW Keyword
- Give him the DW Warlord Trait: Lay low the mighty
- Give him the Relic: Key of Archrabael

So, you get a Smash Master with Str.10, 6 Attacks re-roll ones to hit and re-roll wound rolls against Characters and/or units with a wound characteristic with 8 or more.

This isn’t bad.

Maxamato wrote:
Regarding Smash Master:
What you can do is:
- Give him the Stratagem “Inner Circle”, so he gets the DW Keyword
- Give him the DW Warlord Trait: Lay low the mighty
- Give him the Relic: Key of Archrabael

So, you get a Smash Master with Str.10, 6 Attacks re-roll ones to hit and re-roll wound rolls against Characters and/or units with a wound characteristic with 8 or more.

This isn’t bad.

It's not too bad, but there are generally better things to spend our warlord trait/relic slots on. If you really want a good Smash Captain, play BA instead.

Regarding the DW Knight blob, I got a chance to try it out in a friendly game last evening (at a friends's house; the FLGSs in town aren't hosting games due to COVID-19). He was playing Thousand Sons with Daemon allies. I was too cagey in my first couple of turns and so was out of position to effectively use the blob. Still managed to drop several characters with it, and survived a surprising number of mortal wounds thanks to the Pennant of Remembrance. Lost the game but I learned some things. That banner is a must-have for these guys to keep them alive. Didn't end up needing Transhuman Physiology, but I know it's also something to budget a couple of CP for. Also, a Ravenwing Apothecary is a pretty good delivery mechanism since he is generally useful even outside of using Combined Assault.

My current list idea. It's the same as before but without the Smash Captain and camo cloaks and with a Terminator Libby and 1 extra RW BK per unit.



DW Ancient gets Master of Maneuver for 1 CP so this list really has 11 CP to work with. The Librarian will likely take Aversion and Righteous Repugnance.

I am currently building a Dark Angels Phobos army.
Mainly because I think the Stealth theme fits the green colour and Primaris Dark Angels are going to be inevitable in the foreseeable future - I just hope we get Primaris deathwing Knights sooner than later.

My question is, about the Invictor tactical warsuit.
I think for dark angels it's a great unit if equipped with the flamer because of the +6 extra range turn one.
You get an effective 28" range considering its 10" move.
Therefore you don't have to deploy it right in the enemies face but can rather make use of some terrain in case you go second.

However, how does 2D6 autohit shots (=7 hits on average) compare to the Autocannon?
I know it's only 6 shots and if I move that equals 3 hits on average. But the damage and strength characteristics are much better.

What do you guys think about dark angels Phobos lists and the Invictor in particular?
I also plan to add an executioner and 2 Impulsors with 5 Hellblasters each (I know, not the tournament 10 man blob for weapons of the dark age, but this can be used on the executioner as well )

New tactics article featuring our favorite Green Marines:
https://www.theartofwar40k.com/home/faction-focus-dark-angels?fbclid=IwAR148Ejeua73tEaUpJBjI-P2d7TG6MQPYBR9iMinhlcsWiZA_wko5kqkBXE
By none other than Nick Nanavati!

Is there any reason why Dark Angels to use the Exhortation of Rage Litany over Litany of Hate.

Exhortation allows additional hit rolls on natural 6s whilst Litant of Hate allows full re-rolls.

Would like to know the consensus about these two Litanies.

elook wrote:
Is there any reason why Dark Angels to use the Exhortation of Rage Litany over Litany of Hate.

Exhortation allows additional hit rolls on natural 6s whilst Litant of Hate allows full re-rolls.

Would like to know the consensus about these two Litanies.

One thing I can think of is that if you want full rerolls in melee, have a Libby cast Righteous Repugnance on whichever unit is fighting.

If we have a detachment from another Space Marine army we lose the Super doctrine right?

Correct

If anyone hasn't noticed the new rules about putting stuff in Reserves and then coming in wherever you want that might help us out considerably.

Ravenwing flanks in, big blob of Deathwing Knights land 6 inches away from opponent, whatever they charge dies horribly...

Just a thought.