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Zustiur wrote:
Getting the balance of the the wings right is going to be tricky. Troops are still important for the command points they effectively give, while also being a board control element. I feel like green status back to shoot while stationary, Raven takes and holds the middle while deathwing drop to take the enemy's side. But in what ratio and with which units exactly? Points don't stretch as far as they used to and it's always been tricky to have all three in one list.

Yeah, Ive never managed to pull all 3 at once off to my liking which is why I generally stick to two.

2 10man Devastator squads is awfully tempting now they have 2 wounds each though.

Currently I own no primaris but will be getting the bike chappy and really annoyed I cant put bladeguard in my crusader with a character..grrrrr any one use the jump pack plasma guys? are they any good?

I generally use lascannon/fist dreadnoughts for fire support and am happy they got the damage reduction thing.

After using almost only Greenwing and Dreadnought for the entirety of 8th edition (with the occasional Ravenwing) I feel like Deathwing is the way to go in 9th.

A full 10-man squad AND a 5-man Command Squad (with an Ancient) will probably be the cornerstone of any of my list until the Codex drop (around 400 points). With some Ravenwing taken from the Fast Attack selection.

They're pricey but got 30 wound that are extremely hard to remove and allows you to fill something like a 2000 point even in a Patrol (if you are willing to let go the Black Knight and the Vengeance Land Speeder, probably the only other Elite worth taking instead).
As for any other Deep Striking unit, the first turn will require finesse to avoid any bottleneck when you teleport (but, still, a 6" drop if you can will makes wonders), and after that you can stay even in the middle of a meat grinder without flinching.

In the end, it's about reliance and sturdiness once you are on the objective. Once you're there, it doesn't not matter what the enemy thrown at them: 50% of the time they will shrug off the wound roll, 33% (in the worst case scenario) the Invulnerability will enter in play, and even if that failed you have a 5+/6+ FnP. Plus of course the Watcher for the rare debuff that can really cripple you (I'm thinking about Doom or similar stuff).

Even with the most apocalyptic Titan weapon that you can imagine need, in order to cause a single 1 wound to a Deathwing Terminator, to cause a little over than 3 and half wound. That a 72% damage absorption, and even more important, it something that makes our Terminator both impervious to anti-infantry and to anti-tank. Their only real weakness are Mortal Wounds, but aside that they are really an army that doesn't care what weapons your enemy have taken.

The only possible counterplay I see are some ObjSec hordes in close combat, the they don't have enough attack to clean an objective fast. But even then, thanks to how ObjSec works in 9th, you only need to throw a 5 man Tactical squad nearby (or even a SINGLE model with ObjSec) to reduce this advantage.

What can I say... let's hope this lasts. It's good, once any decade, to be able to use my painted model

I generally use lascannon/fist dreadnoughts for fire support and am happy they got the damage reduction thing.

Unless the FW Index got some nasty news, I always suggest to use the Mortis variant (2 heavy weapons). With our chapter tactic, I've never ever once regret taking them over the standard mixed loadout.

I have a 10 man sqd but will always put in 2 SS/TH for that high AP fire (even starcannons wounding on 4s will put a hurt in them, especially if Doom does get cast Although a 4++ is not super reliable and you'll be losing a pricey terminator
. Hmmm. Finding the right mix sure is going to be fun though.

when going for 10 man squad note that blast weapons will do more shots against them

Bullyboy wrote:I have a 10 man sqd but will always put in 2 SS/TH for that high AP fire

Me too, but that was more for the 3++ and the Strat that required 2 SS in the unit (and also to taunt the other Marines that can't have mixed loadout).
With current rules, if you combine all the changes (not only the new Storm Shield change to 4++ and +1 Armor, but ALSO the new wound allocation and the fact that the Strat don't require Storm Shield anymore) I am inclined to believe that it's best to either go full Deathwing Knight or full Storm Bolter (plus heavies). We'll see I suppose.

The starcannon math anyway is pretty easy, you lose less than a single Terminator for any Starcannon without Storm Shield (2 hits, 1 wound that causes an average of 2 damage, 1,33_ unsaved wound, 0,88_ after the 5+ FnP). They are also very good against any 2 or d3 damage weapons because of the precious damage you waste to kill already wounded Terminator (that's in my opinion the usefulness of the 5+: lessen the lethality of 3 damage weapons).

The more I think about it, the more I believe that as long as you can keep the Ancient alive (and eventually have an Apothecary for a 6+ when needed) I feel they really don't fear anything.

Timur wrote:when going for 10 man squad note that blast weapons will do more shots against them

True, but we can still Combat Squad... right? Anyway I feel that 9 will perform equally good, their Heavy weapons are a little underwhelming in my opinion and one less isn't a big issue.

Played against orks today and i gotta say, Aggressors are still good even without double shooting:

Add azrael and they get 4+ vs shooting, and they dont have to be wholly within like before
Add in an Upgraded chaplain and buff them with two litanies: 1 to wound rolls agains closest unit and the other one that lets shoot as if you didnt move

these guys do wonders agains hordes, and they quite tough to kill, against any damage of 1 we can add +1 to save rolls
transhuman physilogy strat against heavy shooting

And finally, chief apothecary... this guy is so good give him the warlord trait and resurect aggressors without losing CP


Whirlwinds are also very usefull especiealy forgeworld scorpius types.
They dont need to move anywhere, so they will always benefit from our chapter tactic shooting on 2+

Need to blast someone from an objective and deny your opponent some victory points, scorpius will get the job done

Played two 1,000 point games today against Harlies. First match I took a Deathwing Vanguard led by Belial (Knights, Deathwing, Deathing Ancient and Deathwing Command) with a Devastator Squad. Deathwing Terminators with their Inner Circle, 3 wounds and their Ancient with the Banner of Repentance are super resilient. I am still adjusting to how the auras work, but at the end of day Belial with a Deathwing Squad can do some good work. That Inner Circle bit is, pure magic. While the Harlies flying transports were resilient against my Storm Bolters, weight of fire counts. The Deathwing were too tough to shift and murdered the Harlies once the transports were dead.

Took a more balanced list for the second: Captain, two Tacticals, a Razorback, a Devastator Squad, a Bike Squad, and Assault Squad and a Deathwing Squad. The Deathwing shone again, standing up to fire and dishing out punishing firepower and melee. The 2W Marines still melted under Fusion pistol fire, but those extra wounds were still handy. My Greenwing hung in there while the Deathwing went to work. The Assault Squad died but they did help score Deploy Scramblers and made him split his force at a critical time.

Its still early days, and some of the interactions between the Index and new Codex are taking some getting used to. As far as I can tell we've lost our unique Litany, and the Jink and Inner Circle rules don't seem to apply to units in the Codex that you think would. Probably need an Errata. I think our Chapter Tactic is a net positive.

I've been finding Deathwing good already in 9th, and the Codex/Index has made them even better.

This is pretty much what I have found too. Deathwing are second only to nurgly stuff in terms of sheer difficulty to remove off an objective.

I'm pretty certain we'll get our litany back in the supplement ( lets face it if they printed everything in the faq why would we buy the supplement? )

Hoping deathwing captains and ancients get the inner circle rule (maybe bladeguard as well, after all background wise entering the deathwing IS joining the first rung of the inner circle).

REALLY hoping they spice up Interromancy, its a nice idea but was decidedly "meh" in the last iteration.

My main fear with Deathwing (and even the list I posted earlier might have this trouble) is that they can get zoned out HARD by horde armies. Hence why I included both a Talonmaster and 3 Invaders with Gatling guns to hopefully clear them out a little bit. Outriders can also help with their shooting and insane number of melee attacks, and since they are a Ravenwing BIKE unit they are eligible to use Combined Assault to get the terminators in close for an easy charge.

Vehicle-heavy lists could be trouble though, especially fast, durable ones like Death Guard. I've got a buddy that likes to run a Poxmongers vehicle horde including 6 Myphitic Blight-haulers and 3 Plagueburst Crawlers, which are incredibly potent push threats. Deathwing can potentially wreck them with their fists and with the right buffs could even be just as annoyingly durable, but is it enough to close the deal against those things?

Another thing I've thought of that could be incredibly useful is stuff that can shoot out of LOS. The only units I can think of for this in the DA arsenal are Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons. I could have used them in my most recent game to pick on some cheeky Nurglings hiding in the backfield. Are those units worth saving any points for?

As I mentioned a few posts ago, I am seriously considering whirlwinds too. No Idea what thunderfire cannons are like but I have heard they got hit with the nerf bat strengthwise (just as we finally get access to them, typical!).

Dont know points of cannons yet until i get the book, but whirlwinds have always been on the cheaper end of the spectrum so I can't image it will be too difficult to squeeze one or two in.

Looking at the Codex SM I noticed a couple of interesting Warlord Trait (one specifically for the upgraded Ancient, that already improve the hit roll in melee of +1, negating the malus for the Power fist): both can provide Objective Secured to nearby unit (Deathwing specifically). May be worth a thought.

I also agree with the Whirlwind, it's a unit I tried to use in 8th with the combined Ravening Stratagem for maximum hits... But never performed really effectively.
In 9th, with Blast, may be worth reconsidering.
Right now, I'm more inclined to include Land Speeder of any variant rather than a Whirlwind, b cause I think the speed can open line of sight on backfield units... but I will definitely consider one, maybe some FW variant when the book drops.

And, if I see correctly, we've lost Sammael on the Speeder (to be honest, I was expecting that since they introduced the Talonmaster).

Sorry, I almost forgot:
A whirlwind is 125 point with +10 for the Vengeance variant
A thunderfire is 120.

Additional edit:

So, if I read correctly, currently we have this situation about the Command Squad:
- Deatwing have their own Command Squad, but you can include either the Deatwing Champion and the Apothecary, NOT the Ancient, because it's in the Space Marine Codex. This means, for example, that the Ancient only need a separate Elite Slot and don't possess the Inner Circle Rule. Seems a little idiotic, but whatever. Ravenwing instead got the full arrays of three support character with a unit of Black Knight.

- All the support Characters can be improved with the Stratagems (Master Apothecary, Chapter Ancient etc.) with the special relics and Warlord Trait. There is not restriction or limitation to apply those improvements on the Deathwing/Ravenwing special characters.
That's interesting, because you can have a RW Apothecary boosting on the battlefield that heals 2 model of 3 wound each and revive one for 0 CP, or a Deathwing Champion that reroll charges for a nearby unit, Heroic Intervention by 6", against Character attack first reroll Wounds and subtract -1 to hit (plus the usual Inner Circle stuff) and has 5 attacks (8 against hordes)...

I think we can keep our HQ slot free for the Talonmaster (but I'm considering Asmodai to be honest: 2d3 Mortal Wound with the Blades of Reason makes him really scary for any enemy Character) and use our supporting roles with some CP here and there to buff the units that need more support.

I dont think asmodai is 2d3 mortals? just normal damage on blades of reason, ill check.

Yep, just normal damage, ap 0. So its better than before, but still meh really. However, i think the interrogator chappies new aura of dread cold be very useful.

Situation with the ancient and terminator captains is weird but probably just an oversight.

I dont beleive you can use the character upgrades on special characters but i could be wrong (or it will get errata'd very quickly).

Certainly gonna use that warlord trait on an ancient with relic banner to make my deathwing obsec.

Is there any indication as to if our DW Terminators and Knights get access to the Teleport Homers? The new Codex has the generic Terminator data slate which includes the teleport homer ability and specified that DA Termies get the Deathwing Keyword. If you go over to the DA Index that was released, there is actually a data slate for Deathwing Terminators and Knights and no where on those does it mention the Teleport Homer. Thoughts?

Ravenwing apothecary upgraded to Chief (weird thematically, but whatever) is a no brainer. Resurrecting bikes (not ATVs as I expect that will get FAQd) needs a mobile apothecary, and we are the only chapter with one.
The Deathwing ancient with WT and relic banner is also solid. Terminators are going to be great center board, with some Ravenwing taking the outer areas.

You're right on Asmodai, I conflated the relic for 1 Mortal with his 2d3 damage digital weapons. Well, that makes more sense (I would have loved a -1/-2 AP for the poor Asmodai though). I agree with the aura, if your enemy have to roll Morale you can force a loss of 1/3 of a unit instead of 1/6.

About the character upgrades on special character... well, it seems that as long as they have the correct keyword (Ancient, Apothecary etc.) you can use that.

This is also reinforced by the fact that in the Codex:SM the Ancient in Terminator Armour explicitly states that if taken as Dark Angel can be equipped with 2 Lighting Claws (options that the other chapter don't possess)...
So, even if they somehow FAQ the other Wings special character, Ancient will keep its upgrade as long as they don't make a different entry (also note that this effectively forbid him to have the Inner Circle rule... it's strange, but that's it).

On the different Terminator choices, it's all a bit messy exactly as it is for the Ancient.
If I understand correctly, we're explicitly forbid to use ONLY the Sternguard and Vanguard veterans... but I haven't seen any additional restriction.
So, I suppose we can take both the Terminator entry in Codex:SM and the one in IndexA.

It should goes as follows:
- You can pick the Terminator from SM, and they get Deathwing keyword. This may be useful, for example, to include some special equipment for the Relic Terminator squad. As long as I'm aware, however, they don't get Inner Circle and have a much more limited wepons selection (and the usual differences between shooty terminator and assault terminator)... but they get Teleport Homer.
- You can instead select the Deathwing terminator entry: this allows access to mixed equipment for the squad, a number of additional option (plasma cannon, Watcher in the Dark etc.) but they will miss something like the Teleport Homer.

Honestly, it's not really clear. But as far as I'm aware an army with 3 Deathwing Terminator, 3 Assault Terminator and 3 Terminator Squad is legit... We can easily circumvent rule of three (not that such army will be competitive, but seems at least legal).
I suppose our Terminator don't have the Teleport Homer because this specific tactics is covered for the Dark Angel by the special Combined Assault rules that uses the Ravenwing.

But, honest to God, as usual the abilities of GW to fetch up their own stuff at release never cease to amaze.

P.S: always talking about a RW/DW army, another juicy WL for the Talonmaster (if you don't need the free move 1st turn) may be the standard Codex:SM WT that give ObSec to nearby Core Unit. You can field an army with two character providing ObSec, while the Terminator and Bikes provides the bodies.

Named characters cannot be upgraded to Master of the Chapter, that is a rule on pg 98. There is no such thing as "special" characters. If you're referring to the Deathwing and Ravenwing characters, yes, if they have the appropriate keyword, they can be upgraded.

I know, I was answering to eternalxfl

Up to this point, I think I'll always include at the very minimum:

- [130pt, 1CP] Chapter Ancient in Terminator Armor, Two Lighting Claws (just because I have the perfect model already converted and painted), Steadfast Example, Pennant of Remembrance. Don't have the Inner Circle but... whatever. Him alone and a squad of Deathwing Terminator in the midfield will put the hurt and are very hard to shift. It's a shame he will take an Elite slot, however.

- [115pt] Ravenwing Chief Apothecary. I mean: two D3 healing plus a free revive any turn, slapped on a 20" mobile platform with a 5++/4++ when advanced that also provides a 6+++... In this case, since I don't use anything Primaris, I don't think I'll use the special WT: since I plan to use only 3W model, a D3 is more than enough.
I've used the RW Apothecary all 8th (I love my converted model), but aside the D3 mortal wound Strategem it wasn't particularly useful... until now. Now he's.. wow.
For him too, the only issue is the Elite slot: if you already plan to use Black Knight not a problem, but may be an issue otherwise.

- About the RW/DW Champions instead, I'm not convinced yet. Aside from being beatsticks, I don't see particularly good uses for them. I will definitely use them in Crusade however, they're cheap and they can stand their grounds against much more pricey characters.


In general an issue with our army right now (but also for SM) is the extreme amount of Elite choices we need (as luckily we can save some for the support characters).
There is an awful lot of juicy stuff here (I'm looking at you, Land Speeder Vengeance).

As ugly as it is, the Hammerfall bunker doesn't do too bad as DA, especially since we will improve its hit roll by 1 and have a 42" HB array Turn 1.

To whoever was saying that the Ancient in Terminator Armor takes up a slot: he does not, in fact. He has a rule, "Deathwing Command Squad" which works just like the other two Deathwing characters.

And good point on the Hammerfall Bunker. Unless/until they FAQ it so Chapter Tactics don't work on fortifications.

ZergSmasher wrote:To whoever was saying that the Ancient in Terminator Armor takes up a slot: he does not, in fact. He has a rule, "Deathwing Command Squad" which works just like the other two Deathwing characters.

Good catch, I've found it now (it's on the Ancient in Terminator datasheet in the Codex SM).
Unfortunately, it STILL misses the Inner Circle rules, which is kind of a big deal. I suppose I can ask my opponent if I can use it anyway, but I hope it will be Faq'd.

Considering what we've discussed, I feel like a good starting point for a Deathwing army will be something around those lines:



Using the Land Speeder as RW elements IMHO provide less optimal target for your opponent (you lose some Core shenanigans and the Combined Assault is more difficult - you can trigger it only with the Apothecary) but you limit your profile to light vehicle/heavy infantry with invulnerable save).

A Warlord Talonmaster with ObSec (that you can swap with the Outflank special trait if you prefer a faster first turn or the Reroll charges if you're afraid can't get a Combined Assault); the Ancient with Obsec allows your terminator help to control the board, the Drop Pod (with some Tactical) will be there T1 to save space for the Deathwing on T2 and the lone Chief Apothecary on bike can zoom wherever is needed.

As long as defensive profile goes, for DW/RW you have 36 wound on the Terminator profile with Inner Circle and 36 wound on a T6 profile for the Speeders (plus the characters).
Not very much in absolute terms, but all of them benefit from some kind of Invulnerable (with stratagems to boot), some FnP and eventually can be revived.
Maybe I can include a Techmarine on Bike instead of the Liutenant as second HQ, to be able to accompany (and heal) the Speeder.

The only issue is that the Terminator Squad, the Ancient, the Drop Pod AND a tactical squad are little over 1000 point, so there is some trim to be made.

I have still to address the possible Secondaries and how to score them in my battle plan: I expect this list to be tough as nail in the midfield, but susceptible to character sniping. I've got fast multi melta and fast plasma with Fly, a big block of resilient ObSec bodies, a lot of anti-infantry (like: Aggressor level anti infantry) and some heavy melee hitter with the Powerfists that hits on 2+ (4+ +1 for Chapter Tactics +1 for the upgraded Ancient).

Still need some rework, but I'm digging it. I have high expectation especially for the Vengeance Speeder: never used them in 8th (the Darkshroud was better).

You can't use combined assault unless you have a Ravenwing biker, not just a Ravenwing unit.
Nevermind - reread the part about the apothecary

Things I miss:

Weapons from the Dark Age - sure it could be a trap, but it sure was fun.
Intractable - Yes there is Hit and Run Warfare for our bikers, but this was great on Hellblasters and Eradicators
Sammael in Sableclaw - Yes heavy Character shooting was a little dirty, but it sure was effective...Farewell Sableclaw!
Speed of the Raven (mitigated for the invul part, but I will miss advancing and charging with Sammael)
Honour the Chapter on Deathwing Knights
Double Shooting Aggressors with the Dark Angels Litany - yes it was dirty and slowed the game. It had to go. Still

Things I am excited about:

Inner Circle - all day long! The voice in the back of my mind tells that it will be nerfed, but I assume that the Supplement is already written so maybe it will survive
Deathwing Terminators with three wounds
Bikers with three wounds
Watchers in the Dark giving a Deny
Jink once the datasheets get cleaned up or the FAQ comes out giving it to all the Ravenwing
Nephilim - might be playable now especially against aircraft
Deathwing Command Squads
Deathwing Captains
Ravenwing Captains

Honestly, surprised people aren't talking more about our planes. D2 mega bolter on the Nephilim, yikes! The dark talon also changed significantly.
I don't have enough points to run everything I want

 bullyboy wrote:
Honestly, surprised people aren't talking more about our planes. D2 mega bolter on the Nephilim, yikes! The dark talon also changed significantly.
I don't have enough points to run everything I want

I have not played the new Nephilim yet, but chucking out 16 Str 5, AP-2 (in Devastator Doctrine) Damage 2 shots plus the missiles looks nasty whether its tackling an enemy aircraft (2 x D4 Blacksword missiles against aircraft) or going a key infantry unit. It hits ground units just fine now with 9th edition vehicle rules, and it gained a +1 against enemy flyers. Big points investment, but its tempting. I hope to try it next week.

Personally I think all aircraft in the current edition are a trap. They can't hold objectives or score very many of the secondaries, and they cost a lot of points. They could be okay for ganking some character that you really want dead, but smart opponents will never let that happen and given the points costs that won't really be a good trade most of the time. But, that is my opinion, and in this case I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong because I love aircraft models.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Personally I think all aircraft in the current edition are a trap. They can't hold objectives or score very many of the secondaries, and they cost a lot of points. They could be okay for ganking some character that you really want dead, but smart opponents will never let that happen and given the points costs that won't really be a good trade most of the time. But, that is my opinion, and in this case I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong because I love aircraft models.

They could be used to clear objectives

They also have a way to get to enemy units utilizing obscuring terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Things I like about the changes to our fliers...

They both got an increase of 1 wound (11 now instead of 10)
The increase in damage of the HB and megabolter
The Nephilim actually being an interceptor
They both get Jink inbuilt
The Rift cannon, although has less total damage potential, is more reliable
The stasis bomb can help lock a unit in combat

Points changes (which everything received to be fair)
Nephilim went from 170 to 190pts
Dark Talon went from 215 to 210pts

I think our fliers came out of this pretty decently

 Cybtroll wrote:


Considering what we've discussed, I feel like a good starting point for a Deathwing army will be something around those lines:


HQ
Talonmaster 160 Warlord Trait ObSec
Liutenant 70

Troops
3x Tactical Squad (5x) 270
Drop Pod 70

Elite
x2 Land Speeder Vengeance 240
Ancient in Terminator Armour (dual Lighting Claws, promoted to Chapter Ancient, Extra Warlord Trait (ObSec), Pennant of Remembrance) 130pt -1CP
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Apothecary promoted to Master Apothecary, 115

Fast Attack
x3 Land Speeder Tornado (3x Multi Melta/Assault Cannon) 270

1959pt

My only comments with this type of list is that it gives away good Big Game Hunter for opponent.

Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Things I miss:

Weapons from the Dark Age - sure it could be a trap, but it sure was fun.
Sammael in Sableclaw - Yes heavy Character shooting was a little dirty, but it sure was effective...Farewell Sableclaw!
Honour the Chapter on Deathwing Knights
Double Shooting Aggressors with the Dark Angels Litany - yes it was dirty and slowed the game. It had to go. Still

Things I am excited about:

Inner Circle - all day long! The voice in the back of my mind tells that it will be nerfed, but I assume that the Supplement is already written so maybe it will survive
Deathwing Terminators with three wounds
Nephilim - might be playable now especially against aircraft

Weapons of the Dark Age was always good IMO for flexibility. Being able to do St7 Ap3 D2 with no risk was amazing, now you are forced to overcharge its a lot more riskier. Big loss
With all characters losing rerolls, Talonmasters went to BS2+ and cheaper I think this is a net win
I think all chapters losing out means its a net win. Other chapters probably hit us harder in combat. Likewise with Aggressors.

As for Inner Circle on face value it looks like it should be nerfed but I would like to see DA win a few tournaments as proof. I still think there are better balanced armies that can overcome IC durability.
I have two Nephilims which I took at the back end of 8th to good success. Now I think the Avenger Bolter variant may have some play but you really do need to be cagey to make them work, and with eradicators its so easy for them to get popped. Jink definitely helps here making them one of the few viable flyers.

Smirrors wrote:
Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps

I know, but I though about it. The trade off is obviously to avoid Blast... but long story short: I don't think I need 4 teleporting squad (and I'm pretty sure there won't be space on the table to drop them in different spots); the heavy weapons on Terminator are a little underwhelming (I'm seriously thinking about removing them at all, but I probably won't since I already have the model painted). The most important part however is the fact that two unit can spread the Ancient buff further away than 4 small unit. If I had to go for smaller squad the best setup would be a 10 squad terminator and a 5 men Deathwing Command Squad (or eventually two 8 or 7 men, depending upon how many points I have to save).

But I'll let you know how it goes when I try it, specifically with the Big Game Hunter secondary.

 Cybtroll wrote:

Smirrors wrote:
Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps

I know, but I though about it. The trade off is obviously to avoid Blast... but long story short: I don't think I need 4 teleporting squad (and I'm pretty sure there won't be space on the table to drop them in different spots); the heavy weapons on Terminator are a little underwhelming (I'm seriously thinking about removing them at all, but I probably won't since I already have the model painted). The most important part however is the fact that two unit can spread the Ancient buff further away than 4 small unit. If I had to go for smaller squad the best setup would be a 10 squad terminator and a 5 men Deathwing Command Squad (or eventually two 8 or 7 men, depending upon how many points I have to save).

But I'll let you know how it goes when I try it, specifically with the Big Game Hunter secondary.

What you gain with 9 though? For blast it's 100% identical to 10 big squad. So you trade ability to combat squad...for saving cost of 1 model. did you lose 2nd heavy weapoon as well?