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Hellblasters are going to be amazing. They were already pretty good but now... I cannot wait to get five more!

I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.

 Aaranis wrote:
I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.

Sounds like a good, close game between two updated armies with codexes.

I took my Deathwing to a small 11 man 40k GT at my local shop. Ended up placing 3rd, went 2-1. Lost to a guard player with a Shadowsword. Failed aversion the first 2 turns against it and it pretty much finished me off. Played a salamanders Terminator heavy army and a Mortarian DG army as well.

Fun day. Knights were only a factor in 1 game, pretty much got mulched 3/3 games before they could even get into CC. Without a delivery system I'm just thinking they aren't worth taking. Deathwing Assault is definitely over priced.

I've had a look through of my own copy and watched a couple of reviews earlier in the week. Am I alone in thinking the 8th edition Codex isn't fit to lick the boots of the 7th edition codex. This book has been so genericized to sell Primaris models that it barely has a flavour beyond Codex Space Marines. It only has that because of a few and mostly nerfed (since 7th) unique models. Admech level here we come.

 Gibblets wrote:
I've had a look through of my own copy and watched a couple of reviews earlier in the week. Am I alone in thinking the 8th edition Codex isn't fit to lick the boots of the 7th edition codex. This book has been so genericized to sell Primaris models that it barely has a flavour beyond Codex Space Marines. It only has that because of a few and mostly nerfed (since 7th) unique models. Admech level here we come.

I think this an overreaction. I think there's enough flavor here to make some builds that regular Marines wouldn't do, like plasma-heavy stuff. I might say it's more like Death Guard compared to regular Chaos Marines. Some units in common, and some stuff unique to Dark Angels. We've still got the best bikes, and our terminators are actually decent if not optimal for super-competitive play. Our special characters are all pretty good, as well. I think we'll have multiple viable competitive builds, and not just involving Primaris marines. I for one am looking forward to trying it out and seeing how it does.

I've updated the OP with points and rules changes now that I've got my codex.

Now we need to author strategy and tactics. Start writing paragraphs and I'll add stuff to the OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agreed Dark Angels do have the best bikes and terminators, for what that's worth.

Can it really be, I can not get a Darkangels Librarian on a bike?

SGHarker wrote:
Can it really be, I can not get a Darkangels Librarian on a bike?

Neither the Librarian on Bike nor the Interrogator-Chaplain on Bike datasheet exist in the Codex. As such, if you want to use one, you have to use the Index version instead.

I was worried at first because I always ran an Interrogator-Chaplain on Bike with the Mace of Redemption in the past few editions, and I was worried I wouldn't be able to do that now. But I still can.

This codex just screams "Alpha strike!" to me. I can't get away from it. I think Black knights are going to outperform most people's expectations, especially with SotR backing them up. They're not amazing in combat for the cost, but they can certainly dust up some infantry or small medium-tough units on the charge without too much issue. It's the combo of spewing plasma at stuff then either charging a lesser target they can pick on or finishing off the plasma target that'll really push them over the top. Extreme mobility plus power is a potent combo!

My issue with black knights is why buy them when I can take normal plasma bikes? The seem worse for more points. The advantages to knights seem like the ability to advance and shoot (at -1 bs) and be a bit better in combat. But they give up shooting to do it.

Well, I think BK will actually end up being a lot better in combat. With an extra attack, strength, and -1 AP, they'll do far better for the cost than normal bikers against most things you'd be targeting with either unit. You can also make your CP for the plasma strat go considerably farther with BK, which may be a moot point, depending on the rest of your army, I suppose.

edit: I guess you lose a good deal of durability taking BK over regular bikes, though. For me, it's a tough call. Either way, I like the thought of dumping some Inceptors in behind the bike lines to plasma away some juicy target(s). That'll be a really expensive but tough nut to crack for most armies, I think. Maybe the staying power of regular bikers is better?

 Aaranis wrote:
I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.

I don't play Dark Angels but this was a pretty interesting read.

Not too sure about the Devastators and 4 Missile Launchers, considering he had 20 Hellblasters. Might have been worth it sticking them with Heavy Bolters (or using just one and the Hellfire rounds strategem to plink a few Mortal Wounds where needed on a 2+ with signum, assuming Dark Angels got that strategem).

MilkmanAl wrote:
Well, I think BK will actually end up being a lot better in combat. With an extra attack, strength, and -1 AP, they'll do far better for the cost than normal bikers against most things you'd be targeting with either unit. You can also make your CP for the plasma strat go considerably farther with BK, which may be a moot point, depending on the rest of your army, I suppose.

edit: I guess you lose a good deal of durability taking BK over regular bikes, though. For me, it's a tough call. Either way, I like the thought of dumping some Inceptors in behind the bike lines to plasma away some juicy target(s). That'll be a really expensive but tough nut to crack for most armies, I think. Maybe the staying power of regular bikers is better?

In big units maybe the strat is a reason, but they are sub par overall as a target for the strat. As for combat, they are better, but unless you take
a big squad they still aren't great. Against most things I'd rather have 12 bolster shots to the extra cc power.

The more I'm thinking about this, it seems like most of the strategies I've had in mind for bikers involve them being meat shields and pesky things to tie down a big area. If I'm going to use SotR anyway, it doesn't make all that much difference that BK can shoot when advancing. I guess I'd be better off ramming normal bikes up the board ASAP and dropping Inceptors in their wake, if it's an early plasma assault I'm after. It's more points that way, but I'd get max potential out of both strats and wouldn't have to worry as much about the bikes getting counter-charged the following turn. I have to assume the bolter fire is sufficient to cover the difference in combat ability between BK and regular bikes for a few rounds, as you said.

That's my plan. Block off parts of the board with bikes and maybe Deathwing, then move up plasma inceptors, black knights, and HQ behind them.

Here's a list I'm toying with. The overall idea is to hem in your opponent ASAP if he has a static force or to react quickly with bikes and counter-drops if he has a highly mobile or drop-heavy list. Inceptors can drop in near either of the characters for rerolled 1s. Sammael goes with the bikes to wall off a large part of the board, and the DWT and DWK come in opposite or adjoining them to complete the area denial. Scouts are for drop insurance, objectives, and potentially a small measure of additional crowd control. Belial Takes MoM to mitigate how ludicrously slow DWK are. DWT are all in one unit in case you want to pop DW Assault, but you should have plenty of crowd control without that. It's probably more useful to save those CP for plasma and SotR. The 16 extra points can go towards special weapons on the bikes and/or Watchers for the DW units.

Battalion
Belial - 150 (Warlord)
Sammael on Sableclaw - 213
10 RWB - 270
6 Inceptors - plasma - 354
3x5 Scouts - 165
1152
10 DWT - 2 assault cannons - 432
8 DWK - 400
1984 total

Belial can't choose MoM, he must take Huntsman Warlord trait.

Sadly Belial's warlord trait is awful. It would be one thing if at least he had a special gun, even a storm bolter with -1 AP or something, it's literally a bog standard storm bolter, so having him as actual warlord is pointless.

When I played I took a Libby in term armor and made him MoM. Problem is, if your wanting to run Belial and Sammael, plus a expensive units like BKs and DWT or DWK, your probably not going to have the points for a 3rd HQ.

Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader. They have a better chance of getting into combat that way. And our Land Raiders are less likely to get their shooting shut down thanks to our fall back and shoot stratagem. I'll probably try the DWK+Asmodai+DW Ancient bomb sometime; it could be really good. If your opponent focuses down the Land Raider, he's ignoring your Black Knights, Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, or whatever other nasty thing you've got raining hell on his army. Land Raiders themselves are actually very tough vehicles; the toughest in the game short of a superheavy like a Baneblade.

MilkmanAl wrote:
The more I'm thinking about this, it seems like most of the strategies I've had in mind for bikers involve them being meat shields and pesky things to tie down a big area. If I'm going to use SotR anyway, it doesn't make all that much difference that BK can shoot when advancing. I guess I'd be better off ramming normal bikes up the board ASAP and dropping Inceptors in their wake, if it's an early plasma assault I'm after. It's more points that way, but I'd get max potential out of both strats and wouldn't have to worry as much about the bikes getting counter-charged the following turn. I have to assume the bolter fire is sufficient to cover the difference in combat ability between BK and regular bikes for a few rounds, as you said.

Especially since IMO you often don't want to be the one charging. If we assume you get into charge range with these 2 units

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma
2.) 3 Black knights

In shooting you get

1.) 6 Plasma shots, 12 Bolter shots (assuming you don't fire both parts of the combi)
2.) 6 Plasma shots

So if we were shooting at MEQ

The bikers do 3 plasma wounds + 4 bolter wounds, probably 4 dead marines
The black knights do 3 plasma wounds, probably 3 dead marines

If both units charge the bikers get 4 attacks and likely do nothing, the Black knights get 7 attacks, so 4-5 hits, 3 wounds, so 1 dead marine. So they come out about equal.

If they don't charge the bikers have a much better overwatch with 14 bolter shots + the plasma.

The bikers are also cheaper I believe. Against Chaff this swings way more in favor of the bikers because they get more attacks overall.

Hey so I've been coming up with a first draft list for my first Dark Angel force, at 1500 pts. It'll be mostly constructed around the contents of 3 Dark Vengeance boxes, since I'll be getting these for a bargain soon.

Battalion Detachment +3 CP

- Azraël (Warlord);
- Ezekiel;

- 5 TACs with plasma gun;
- 5 TACs;
- 5 Sniper Scouts;

- 3 Ravenwing bikes, 1 plasma gun;
- 3 Ravenwing bikes, 1 plasma gun;

- 5 Deathwing Terminators;
- 5 Deathwing Knights;

- 10 Hellblasters with plasma incinerator

The idea is to have Azraël running alongside the Hellblasters, for rerolls and the 4++, to deal with high Toughness targets. Snipers scouts camp either an objective on my side, or just a ruin, near Azrael if he doesn't need to move too much, so as to deal with Characters and such. The TACs do objective camping too, or go support the rest of my army if there's no need for more camping. The bikes go harass the flanks and the enemy backfield support units, while clearing the chaff a bit to let the rest of my army move easily. Terminators drop where it's hot to dispose of the infantry with their Storm Bolters (I don't plan on using the Stratagem, too expensive for what it does), and if it's clear they'll be free to go punch something worthy. Meanwhile, I drop my Knights where needed and go after the tough stuff, supported by Righteous Repugnance casted by Ezekiel who shouldn't be too far away.

Thoughts on this ? I think my weaknesses are actually having Ezekiel close by the Knights (I just thought about that right now), and getting them to charge successfully. TACs aren't exceptional I know, but I'll have 30 of them so they'll fill my Troops choices until I get more Scouts and/or Intercessors. What do you guys think about Intercessors now that they're 18 pts/head ? In the few games where I got to shot them I found them quite resilient to small arms fire, and I believe they could be great objective holders due to their resilience, more than TACs and especially Scouts anyway. I'm thinking about those no-LoS artillery that could easily shot 5 Scouts to death in the end of the game to deny me points.

In future (and bigger) lists I'd like to include a bunch of Land Speeders, be it the regular ones with a Multi-Melta or a Vengeance, supported by either a Darkshroud, Sammael on Jetbike, or even both. I really like the aesthetics of Land Speeders so I believe I'll drop the bikes in favour of those. Knights are also one of my favourite units, I'd really like to see them work, supported by an Ancient and Ezekiel to provide Righteous Repugnance and Denies against Smites. Is a Land Raider Crusader really mandatory for them to work ? Also, what are they best against ? Vehicles, monsters, both ?

Thanks in advance for helping me out, lots of good info in this thread !

That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader.

Absolutely true, but that's 330 points of vehicle I have to figure out how to shoehorn into the list - not the easiest task in the world. I was hoping that 28 large-ish models would be enough to at least pin down SOMETHING long enough charge it. Incidentally, the statistical difference between rerolling the lowest die and rerolling both dice for making a 9" charge is like 1%, so not having a MoM warlord with the knights is really only going to cost you a CP to gain the same level of effect. It's the advancing and rerolling subsequent charges that's really nice for those poor plodding bastards.

Biker math and stuff

That's fairly convincing by me. I try to run as much Deathwing as possible, so crowd control is always at a premium. Hard to pass up a bunch of mobile bolters that double as massive speed bumps.

I for one will never be taking to the field without a Company Champion to hang out with my other foot mobile characters. At 44 points he is a ridiculously good value. My second favorite new toy is the Ravenwing Talonmaster, he has more firepower than 2 Razorbacks, and if you give him the Heavenfall Blade he is a rock solid "do everything well" character. Very fast, provides a nice buff, loads of dakka, respectable melee skills, and best of all he can't be shot at easily.

I haven't yet figured out a way to NOT justify taking both of these guys.

I'm going to be testing this tomorrow

bob with power sword, storm Bolter
Chaplain dreadnought, assault cannon

10 deathwing terminators, 2 assault cannons, combat squading
10 deathwing terminators, 5 thunder hammers, storm shields, 2 assault cannons, combat sqauding
Doreto dread, heavy Bolter, hellfire plasma carronade, ailos missile launcher
Doreto dread, hellfire plasma carronade, heavy Bolter, ailos missile launcher
6 deathwing knights

The doreto dreads will move and advance up if nessary to get in range, they rr 1 to hit as dreads due to dark angel tactics when stationary and add the relic of old night strat they should put a big dent in high wound models (5 shots damage 3/4 with relics), seems pretty solid, the chaplain dread is just because I like it and I will spend a cp to make it deathwing so it gets bobs re rolls, it adds +1 to any friendly units in combat with it so it's are 14 and terminators are str 10, also seems fairly good for cost, the rest of the army is just what I've managed to dig out after I moved, I know mono deathwing isn't good at the moment but I'm a glutton for pain and love my deathwing.

I'll let you guys know how it does.

So I ran ravenwing at a local 1500 this past weekend.

list was... OUTRIDER
Sammuel corvax
RW Ancient
2x 5 RW bikers, pwr swrd sarge
2x 6 black knights
Dark shroud
Nephilim, twin lascannon

New book was allowed which was nice. I went 1-2, but after including Paint score, and sportsmanship, I ended up pulling out 3rd overall!

Round 1: Matching with Alaitoc Eldar for their shenanigans. Between smite, Jinx, and reroll hits/wounds, and auto hits -4 2D weapons... i had no shot at all. got tabled by turn 3.

Round 2: Blood angels dbl deathco alpha list. Super strong alpha strike, I had limited screening to my RW bikes. What i really needed was 2 scout squads to bubble out deepstrike. I will find a way to do this in the future. THis was a super fun game, it was a total 12 rounds in the ring type that went down to scraps on the board.

Round 3: Another BA matchup. This time a terminator themed list. Perfect matchup for me. I was able to work objectives while easily kiting the termies and just popping the Plasma strategem or overcharging with sammuel buffs to just wipe them out.

So.. having played this using Speed of the raven and the plasma strat etc. The plasma strategem is the beez kneez. It is extremely good, and is never bad. Speed of the raven was ok? Im sure it is good in certain situations, but I found the black knights just didn't quite do enough damage in squads of 6. It was difficult to get them to advance and get the charge off with the acnient nearby to give them the attacks they need and similarly so keeping sammuel near for rerolls. If you have a squad of 10 OR you have a deployment map that is setup for better success, then maybe this is a turn 1 alpha strat.. But by round 3... i found it much better to be used more as a way to get your 4++ and not lose out on offense.

I think the question of normal bikers vs Black Knights comes down to the jink save. The Black Knights can advance for the 4+ invul while still firing, the Ravenwing bikers have to choose between firing and the 4+ invul.

I'm honestly not sure right now, which is better. The Black Knights are a lot more expensive, especially now that the normal bikers went down significantly in cost but being able to advance each turn and still fire, along with packing a better punch in CC may make them worth it.

Can you reserve the Black Knights? Totally blanking on the reserve rules currently but if you can't I think that may be the deciding factor to pass on them because your opponent could alpha strike them off the board first turn before they had a chance to advance for jink.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I think the question of normal bikers vs Black Knights comes down to the jink save. The Black Knights can advance for the 4+ invul while still firing, the Ravenwing bikers have to choose between firing and the 4+ invul.

I'm honestly not sure right now, which is better. The Black Knights are a lot more expensive, especially now that the normal bikers went down significantly in cost but being able to advance each turn and still fire, along with packing a better punch in CC may make them worth it.

Can you reserve the Black Knights? Totally blanking on the reserve rules currently but if you can't I think that may be the deciding factor to pass on them because your opponent could alpha strike them off the board first turn before they had a chance to advance for jink.

You cannot reserve them, except in 1 mission from CA I think. You can only reserve units if they have a reserve rule. I do find the advance and shoot decent, the issue is the -1 is a decent reduction in their shooting (obviously less than not shooting at all from regular bikes), but if you are doing it all the time a squad of 3 black knights is looking at never overcharging (-1 to hit hurts a lot for overcharging) and hitting 3 times with plasma, for almost 150 points. The 4+ is nice but remember against anything not -2 or higher it doesn't matter (so autocannons still are bad news), against -2 it is only a +1 to save. So really it is only a big deal against -3 and -4. If they had a rule to not have the penalty to shooting while advancing, they might be worth considering, but with it they just don't do enough damage. Also remember without using a stratagem, they cannot advance and charge so their better close combat loses out at that point.

I look at it this way, is Jink + shooting worth it. I really don't think it is because black knights don't have a high rate of fire for their points. A 10 man squad that advances is looking at paying 400+ points for 10 plasma hits. Or you are spending a stratagem at which point the advantage is the plasma because a bike squad could do the exact same thing. I view the advance and Shoot from BK to be a small bonus, while you are getting into range, after that I'm not sure you want to give up on your shooting.

Now maybe with sammi with re-rolls this changes somewhat, but I think more often Jink is going to be used turn 1 while you get into position then you won't jink while you deliver your punch on the next turn because you will want to be as effective as possible.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

Yeah MoM is nice, but i consider the hunt to be even better, and i'm talking about the pile in portion of it. Try it, it is sick what you can do with it.
Also, remember than you can exploit enemy characters to reroll your charges.