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There are a couple things to consider as well with bikes w/ plasma vs black knights. All theory math is assuming that bikes are in rapid fire range and no consideration at all for total threat range.

Black knights have a 6" advantage on their max shots effectiveness over normal bikes. Additionally, being able to shoot after advancing (and now shoot and charge after advancing with SotR) makes their total threat range ALOT more deadly.

When you start building around strategems like Weapons of the dark age, a Larger unit of black knights starts taking much higher advantage of these.

Addtionally, Dont worry about the -1 to hit... if you are running black knights you are going to have Sammuel.. and if you have Sammuel.. you are rerolling all your hits anyway.


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I am just starting out with this, 2 squads of 6 knights was pretty good. Unsure if its the optimal for cost/productivity. only play testing will show that.

I think the best overall is a combination of Black knights and RW bikes supporting them though! Spamming one unit in 8th just asks for hard counters.

I'm looking at adding a Forge World model to my Dark Angels army. What do you guys suggest? I was leaning towards a Sicaran, with maybe a Leviathan coming in second place. The Spartan looks pretty cool too. What are the standout Forge World units? Also maybe what's fun to assemble? Are any of those notoriously difficult to build?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
There are a couple things to consider as well with bikes w/ plasma vs black knights. All theory math is assuming that bikes are in rapid fire range and no consideration at all for total threat range.

Black knights have a 6" advantage on their max shots effectiveness over normal bikes. Additionally, being able to shoot after advancing (and now shoot and charge after advancing with SotR) makes their total threat range ALOT more deadly.

When you start building around strategems like Weapons of the dark age, a Larger unit of black knights starts taking much higher advantage of these.

Addtionally, Dont worry about the -1 to hit... if you are running black knights you are going to have Sammuel.. and if you have Sammuel.. you are rerolling all your hits anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am just starting out with this, 2 squads of 6 knights was pretty good. Unsure if its the optimal for cost/productivity. only play testing will show that.

I think the best overall is a combination of Black knights and RW bikes supporting them though! Spamming one unit in 8th just asks for hard counters.

Well I mean bikes can use the stratagem as well. But not for as large a unit of plasma. The 6" extra threat matters a bit, but it is not too difficult to get into rapid fire range. Bikes have a 26" max threat range if you don't use the stratagem, vs 38" for the knights. But their max effective threat range is also their max threat range period. Where as bikes max threat range is 44", and without stratagem is also 38", they just shoot a bit less plasma

Knights do make better use of stratagems, but large units are also prime targets for enemy firepower.


I think the -1 to hit still matters because even with Sammi you are missing on 3s the first time around and 1-3 on the re-roll. He helps but it matters to overall output, and especially for overcharging risk.

Unless you are building mono-ravenwing I think knights are a sub optimal choice for weapons of the dark age due to their cost. Personally I have been looking at Inceptors with bikes for support as I think that combination is more points efficient than the knights.

I often run a Leviathan with storm cannon arrays. Great looking model and effective against a wide variety of targets. My biggest issue with him was opponents tying him up in combat. Now we have a strategem to deal with that issue. Very nice assembly too.

Breng77 wrote:

I think the -1 to hit still matters because even with Sammi you are missing on 3s the first time around and 1-3 on the re-roll. He helps but it matters to overall output, and especially for overcharging risk.

Unless you are building mono-ravenwing I think knights are a sub optimal choice for weapons of the dark age due to their cost. Personally I have been looking at Inceptors with bikes for support as I think that combination is more points efficient than the knights.

I will have to play a few more games to comment more on the -1 to hit. I only lost 3 bikes in total through three rounds to getting hot on plasma. even with advancing. Maybe i got lucky

Have you used the Inceptors yet? I was considering them as well as an alternative. 2d3 i belive is their plasma? and much cheaper now after CA dropped.

I have, they murder stuff. They are 2D3 shots each, so 3 get 6D3 (12 shots average) or 6 get 12D3 shots (24 shots). They basically always get to pick their target. now they only really ever get re-roll 1s (unless you want to shell out for a pod with Azzy in it). But most times that is enough, I used a Jump pack master, and Lieutenant, and dropped them in, with 6 Inceptors. From a pure damage output standpoint (per point) they are the best target for weapons of the dark age. With re-rolls I think they average something like 14.5 wounds (against T5-7), so with the stratagem that is around 43 damage. So you can split fire them at several different squads if possible and wreck face.

For the sake of completeness
10 Helblasters at 15" range do 36 damage (points are close to the same I think inceptors are 14 points more).)/ 10 black knights are about the same as the helblasters but at 18" but they cost considerably more (almost 100 points more I think.)

Now the Inceptors are less durable per point (only 12 wounds, vs 20), but basically always gets to shoot at full effectiveness without taking any damage.

After the 1 time I took a full squad I think taking 2 x3 is a better choice. Your drop is not so brutal, but it gives you 2 turns of drops to do damage, and if they die it is not such a huge loss.


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Also a squad of 6 Black Knights firing at -1 to hit, with re-rolls.

First salvo on average has 4 overheats from 12 shots (2 other misses). Then you re-roll and likely 1 dies (at -1 to hit 1 out of 3 shots kills a bike). So if through 3 rounds 3 bikes is about right for each squad that overheats.

Do DA even have access to a Lieutenant that can take a jump pack? I haven't seen the new Codex yet, but I'm pretty sure they only have access to the Primaris Lieutenant in the Index, and you can't give the Primaris Lt a jump pack.

DA does indeed have access to non-Primaris Lt's. Looking at it in the codex now.

Yes non-primaris lieutenants are in the codex and yes they can take jump packs.

Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...

pessa wrote:
Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...

Yes there's an old "Ravenwing upgrade sprue" with the double bolter and cannons. It goes onto a normal speeder. it's still on GW's site https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Ravenwing-Accessory-Pack

Just a note on the RWB vs RWK discussion - this unit is illegal in the new book:

Breng77 wrote:

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma

A RWB Sgt can't take a combi weapon. He only has access to the melee and pistols weapon lists. You can give him a plasma pistol, but you have only one shot with it at 12" and you lose your twin bolter shots from him.

 axisofentropy wrote:

pessa wrote:
Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...

Yes there's an old "Ravenwing upgrade sprue" with the double bolter and cannons. It goes onto a normal speeder. it's still on GW's site https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Ravenwing-Accessory-Pack

Good to know. Ta

After being completely destroyed by tyranids, i'm thinking of what could be good list against them, what tactics to use and so on?

Another question is how viable are dreadnought options for a DA amy? Repulsors?

Since i'm running 10 hellblasters in my list it seems that a repulsor is an autotake to protect them from turn one combos

I'm not looking for tailoring my list to counter tyranids, just looking for some advice on which units would be effective against them.

Aggressors are a counter to nids in general.

has anyone seen the codex? seems like DA intercessors sergeants are able to carry a power sword in addition to other weapons, wonder if that means they can take boltrifle, pistol and the sword

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Just a note on the RWB vs RWK discussion - this unit is illegal in the new book:

Breng77 wrote:

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma

A RWB Sgt can't take a combi weapon. He only has access to the melee and pistols weapon lists. You can give him a plasma pistol, but you have only one shot with it at 12" and you lose your twin bolter shots from him.

Good to know that hurts especially when space marine biker sarges can get combo weapons.

Timur wrote:
has anyone seen the codex? seems like DA intercessors sergeants are able to carry a power sword in addition to other weapons, wonder if that means they can take boltrifle, pistol and the sword

He has the option to take it as an additional weapon. Yes.

Had my first codex game a couple days ago, vs Space Wolves no less! Wanted to try out a lot of new stuff. My list was:
Sammael
Talonmaster
5x bolter scouts
5x bolter scouts
5x sniper scouts w heavy bolter
5x deathwing w cyclone
Ravenwing apothecary
Darkshroud
6x black knights
10x hellblasters
Dark talon
Imperial bastion

I put the hellblasters in the bastion because with grim resolve they can reroll 1s without a master. All 10 hellblasters stayed alive and deleted a unit every turn. MVP of the battle.

Talonmaster was sick and was a major force multiplier for himself, Sammy, and the dark talon.

Deathwing accomplished very little sadly, though they did punch a lasback to death toward the end.

I remain meh on sniper scouts. They accomplished nothing and I'm thinking intercessors with stalkers would accomplish more as home objective holders, despite costing more.

Dark talon was great. Only had to hover near the end to stay in buff bubbles, but by then all anti-flyer threats were neutralized.

The black knights took a rough hit from 10 combiplasma wolf guard and only left with sarge thanks to jink. Amazing durability considering 20 overcharged shots.

Very happy with the codex so far.

Seems like our regular termies are trash. 200+ points for bolter shots and one heavy weapon(squad of 5) and a power fist which is rarely uefull

I disagree about Terminators. I've had pretty good luck with 10 of them dropping in and anchoring a flank. Granted, I support them with Belial for rerolls. They're quite effective in combat and have enough firepower to be useful. They're jacks of all trades and attract a ton of attention when dropped in a threatening place. If you can manage to execute a hammer-and-anvil style attack, they're a huge pain in the butt since your opponent won't be able to run from them.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I disagree about Terminators. I've had pretty good luck with 10 of them dropping in and anchoring a flank. Granted, I support them with Belial for rerolls. They're quite effective in combat and have enough firepower to be useful. They're jacks of all trades and attract a ton of attention when dropped in a threatening place. If you can manage to execute a hammer-and-anvil style attack, they're a huge pain in the butt since your opponent won't be able to run from them.

Thats the thing, you need 10 of them in one drop and some rerolls for optimal performance, but thats a whole lot of points for bolter shots and powerfists that will be usefull only if you make the charge rolls, which you probably wont on the turn you dropped them. They are jacks of all trades and masters of none, there are better options for chaff clearing and anti tank in my opinion.
However i think catapracti terminators could be very deadly if droppen behind enemy lines, the 4+ invul and the stratagem that gives an additional round of shooting=80 bolter shots could deal much damage

They are jacks of all trades and masters of none, there are better options for chaff clearing and anti tank in my opinion.

Cataphractii are an interesting choice. As I mentioned, I mostly use my Terminators to flank and press my opponent into a box. Catphractii would be good at that, as far as being an immovable object is concerned. The problem is that they're so bloody slow and can't even forfeit their shooting to reposition if you wanted them to. I also like having a heavy weapon in the unit to provide a little extra punch against medium targets. I'm not sure the durability is worth the speed loss.

I honestly don't think I'd bother with Terminators at all if I wasn't going to commit to them. It's too easy to overwhelm a single 5-man unit with either mid-strength fire or worthless screening models, and hitting on 4's is too unreliable to make them titan-killers. It's also too easy to simply run away from them. they don't push enough damage through just shooting to be worth hassling with if you have other more worthwhile targets.

On the other hand, you can take up a substantial part of the board with 10 Terminators and Belial. I'm planning to run some DWK and RW bikers in addition to those guys, so I'll basically be able to lock down whatever I need to, as long as it's on the board and not flying. Again, I don't feel like they're worthwhile choice if you're not planning on using area denial as a primary tactic to get your units where you want them to be, but since I probably am, they're golden!

Here's my rough list so far with a total of 1998 points.

Battalion
Asmodai
Ezekiel (or normal Librarian)
2x5 Bolter Scouts
2x5 Sniper Scouts
Stormraven (Twin AssCan, Twin HB, Hurricane Bolters & Stormstrike ML)
5 Deathwing Knights

Outrider
Sammael on Corvex
Talonmaster
5 Ravenwing Bikes (2 Plasma Guns)
5 Black Knights
Darkshroud

I'd like to fit in a Chaplain Dread, but I'd have to remove some things and play around with others. But the idea is the Stormraven sits near the Darkshroud whilst carrying the Knights, Asmodai, and Ezekiel (and the Chaplain Dread if I can swing it) for a cool -2 to hit if I don't get first turn. First turn it flies up, shoots stuff and hangs out while the rest of the fast movers move up and shoot and possibly assault depending on the army I'm facing/the deployment. 2nd turn the Stormraven unloads everything as close as possible to what they need to destroy and within auras of as much as possible. Scouts deploy to disrupt deep striking/provide a speed bump/on objectives.

The Knights buffed with all of those characters are really going to put a dent in pretty much anything. Sure it's expensive, but having the Stormraven put them exactly where they need to go (and closer than 9" to make charging far easier) is going to be a huge distraction carnifex.

Of course this all looks good on paper, but a general strategy is nice (when it works...).

Hey, I'm new to 40k still and just wanted to run a rough draft of a list by ya'll to see if it would work:

Belial
2x 5 Deathwing Terminators, each with an Assault Cannon
1x 5 Deathwing Knights

Azrael
Lieutenant
10x Hellblasters
Repulsor
3x 5 Troops (could be Scouts, Intercessors, or Tac Squads with Lascannons)

My plan was to use Weapons from the Dark Age with the Hellblasters, and also the Repulsor that transports them, to fry the hell out of everything. The Terminators would set up around this firebase in such a way as to lend fire support while also charging when feasible and otherwise serving as counter-charge units (I know getting the Knights into charge position can be difficult sometimes, in those cases they should at least be able to defend the Hellblasters from charges I guess?). The troops will shore up any gaps that lead to my Hellblasters that the Terminators haven't covered. In the event that I don't have to worry about deep strikers or fliers, the Terminators and troops would just be part of the ball sitting inside of Azrael's aura. I like having the troops for the +3 CP, plus Azrael means I should be able to use Weapons from the Dark Age every turn and can even use some of the other strategems if really needed. I'm hoping that I can position my Terminators in sort of an anchor position and not worry as much about their limited movement...

So after my game I came to the conclusion that doredo dreads with the dark angels trait are horrific, both were equipped with plasma cannon thingys and ailos launchers, his liby dread and death company dread both died instantly with a combination of hitting on 2+ with re roll, wounds on 3+ with rr 1's and relics of old night causing 4 wounds, that's a potential 20 wounds from 1 doredo, the only limiting factor was the 24" range

The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

it was his mistake, he charged one of my deathwing squads turn one (some blood angel shinanigans) and wiped it out as i failed all my saves, this meant that his liby dread was the closest target for my Doredo, it was a simple mistake to make, the death company dread had drop podded down (dread pod) and no way was I going to let it get close, I am glad I bubble wrapped my dreads otherwise he would have easily wiped me, he had 2 15 man units of DC and all the power weapons in the world, lemartes, some luitenant, 10 sanguinary guard, 15 scouts, DC dread, liby dread, it was brutal as his entire army was on me turn 1, but thanks to some good TH/SS rolls from my sarges and a lot of 4+ armour saves from my other squad, I was lucky to hold him, counter charged with 5 thundernaters, DW knights and Bob came down on my turn 1, left my chaplain dread in combat with him as it heroic interventioned, killed his liby dread and most of 1 DC unit with the 2 doredo, those Ailos launchers are pretty solid!

my 5 thundernaters and chaplain dread tore his 15 man DC unit to bits, str10 thunder hammers are awesome, bob made his 10" charge so I was RR hits and wounds due to luetenent (cant spell that bloody word) they got creamed.
his turn what was left of his DC stayed in combat, the doredo got charge by his LT and Lemartes, knocked it down to 4 wounds, his sang guard charged my knights, killing 4, then were all wiped out (still within 6" of bob so RR to hit).

Long story short I got some lucky rolls, it kept me in the game, it was fun ish, but not a real fan of this turn 1 alpha strike nonsense, I barely moved all game :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realised too that the liby dread had the fly keyword for the turn haha, so the doredo could have had +1 to hit it 1+ to hit or 2+ if i move

Rolls of 1 always miss regardless of any modifiers, it not possible to hit on a 1+

I gotcha!

Tough break on getting stuck in the open there. It happens to the best of us though. That list is similar to how I plan on running my Blood Angels. Less emphasis on alpha strike here, though I do plan on having a strong flank crusher style hammer element in my list eventually.

Appreciate the explanation. Glad you enjoyed the game.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-