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Is melee combat a necessary part of 40k as a game?

Lately, I played a very small game on break, Astra Militarum against Necrons - pretty much Infantry Squad+Chimera+Greyfax+Fenrisian Wolves against Warriors+Overlord+Scarabs. The Necrons, being torn up by the Chimera's guns, made a break for close combat against the Infantry Squad, to tie up in melee. They didn't roll high enough, and the Necrons lost the game.

Anyway, it's no real secret that my opponent HATES melee. I've often joked about that they should play Tau, with how much they hate getting anywhere near the sharp end of a chainsword. But here, they pretty much shut down as soon as melee was even suggested. I've offered to explain and demonstrate how melee works, in case it's just a case of them not knowing how it works in game, but it never really gets anywhere. I questioned them about this, and they more or less replied with "Why does melee even exist? It shouldn't matter, and shouldn't be in the game. It slows everything down." I asked how they felt about all melee lists, or melee specific units, like Lychguard - "well then that's their fault for taking those units".

Do any of you agree with this? Do you think melee should be scrapped from the game, making it about movement, shooting and psychic only? Should I forget about trying to use melee against this opponent?

Your opponent thinks when people are at point blank range they should keep shooting lascannons and missile launchers and mortars at each other?

Nope he is wrong, read the fluff, look at some of the factions that are melee centric. In this edition Melee is no slower than any other phase.

Melee exists because power armour, force shields, holo fields and other such tech negates shooting attacks to one extent or another but isn't as effective as the disruptor field on a power weapon.

A melee weapon capable of cleaving terminator armour is easier to produce than the gun that can do the same.

A guy 100 foot away shooting you doesn't invoke the same fear as he does when he's in your face swinging an axe at your head.

There's reasons it exists and should be equal to shooting.

That sounds mighty selfish of your opponents to shut down even a discussion.

Hard to advise anything not knowing the climate withn your local player group.


But fact remains - Melee is a legitimate part of the game, it's in the rules, who cares if they like it or not, if they give up when you enter melee - well, it sucks because you're deprived of a part of the game, that rewards your list (since you obviously built for that)

What i can easily judge from your post - you're playing with donkey-caves, there is no pleasing them anyway so roll how you roll and ignore any whining

Guys with swords look cool.
And it adds depth to the game.

Yes Melee is a legit part of the game and the game would be worse without it.

That said in 8th Melee is in a wierd spot.
In your example nothing would have changed if the Necrons had made that charge. because the IG simply walks out of combat and continues shooting.
Your charges need to be quick (pref turn 1) and crippling. Or its rarely worth it.

Sure.

I like Dune and Star Wars, both of which have iconic melee elements.

Your opponent doesn't like close combat, but used a fine tactic to try and secure victory. Had it worked, he'd have been patting himself on the back for being so clever. Close combat in 40k is a lot of fun, and I, for one, really enjoy it. It's probably my favourite part of the game - much more enjoyable to me than shooting or psychics.

Game-wise, there's a number of good reasons to include close combat. It's really hard in 40k to do an all-melee army that's successful, because there's SO many more ways to disrupt it. But it also doesn't restrict your charging in against characters, meaning your Flying close combat units can jump over their protective screens to engage them. You can just walk away from close combat, but for many of the efficient shooty vehicles in the game this will mean they lose their ability to shoot for that turn, which can really give you a leg up. If you are very clever with your charge moves, you can even trick in some fantastic pile-in moves to continue to zoom across the board and/or tie up even more things!

The only gripe I have about close combat is how easy it is to walk away from it and how much it punishes those units that end up out in the open this way, plus how many units/armies that can always Fall Back and still shoot/charge. It'd be nice for those melee units with paper-thin armour to charge in and get stuck in combat in order to avoid being shot again immediately. But still, in my opinion, this is way better than in 7th edition.

Lol. Melee in 8th is barely any slower than shooting, and honestly games played against full shooting armies tend to take much longer for me than games against armies with healthy melee elements.

That guy is full of crap.

I like close combat stuff quite a bit, and I wish it was more mechanically sound in 8e.

(I have a modern-day combat RPG I am working on where I put as much attention into unarmed fighting skills as I did into my tanks and rifles)

If he doesn't like it, he should get in it, and organize his forces as such. And he should bounce off with the "slows everything down" noise. I see that a lot lately, I've noticed...

M.

Melee is 100% part of the game and GW could never cut it out; heck the chainsword alone is one of their most iconic creations, familiar even with those not all into warhammer.

"Warhammer, you know that game with those big marines covered in armour with big guns and chainsaw swords!"

Orks, Tyranids, a fair portion of Dark Eldar - all heavy melee elements in the game.



I think honestly your opponent is likely
1) Suffering from the fact that Necrons are not doing great at present rules wise, hopefully the new year should bring a new codex and even the playing field.

2) Isn't taking melee centric units and thus when his generalist or ranged focused units get into melee they get trashed.

Tau would be the same, if he got into melee with Tau, unless it was Kroot heavy, he'd be thrashed. Yet if he took ranged and used it well chances are Tau would really suit him well.


Also if he wants no-melee he could look toward something like Dropzone which has very long ranted weapons. There is still melee for infantry and some units, but by and large its a game of long ranges, counter measures, shields and suchlike.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Do any of you agree with this? Do you think melee should be scrapped from the game, making it about movement, shooting and psychic only? Should I forget about trying to use melee against this opponent?

Quite the opposite. I'd never play a "shooting only" army and I think gunlines should be nerfed so badly that they are going to disappear.

Psychic phase is optional though.

But shooting and melee should have the same importance.

Imagine world eaters without melee. Lol.

He can hate it all he likes, but ultimately it *is* a fundamental part of the game. If he thinks it makes the game slower, he should try being on the receiving end of a charging Kharn plus a few packs of Khorne Berserkers...

I'd take a Kraken Genestealer list against him and relish in his howls as nothing could shoot as it was always falling back from my army's teeth and tendrils mwuahahahahaha...

What.

ranged and melee elements should have comparable importance in the game. They currently don't, but hopefully that will be fixed at some point...one can hope.

Melee is probably the best part of the game. You have to be careful with positioning and have to really think about how to pile in, what to activate, which units to declare for a charge - it's much more interesting than shooting.

Warhammer 40K is NOT Science fiction warfare. It is Science Fantasy warfare. As in based around classic Fantasy elements, but in the far future.
Melee is not only a big part of most Fantasy genres, but usually THE main part of it. So yeah, Melee belongs in 40K

Even tactically it fits. It is BORING to just sit back and pew pew at each other. Even if your army list has 0 melee, it it likely that your opponent does and it is part of the suspense to be "working against the clock" to shoot them enough before they reach melee.
Also without melee, list with superior shooting would be auto-win lists. Sometimes even a shooting heavy list needs to use some melee to tip the balance against a foe with superior firepower.

If your opponent cannot understand any of that, maybe 40K isn't the right game for him.

-

Yeah, if somebody doesn't likes meele, to the point of his fun of the game being removed from him if theres some meele elements agains't him, warhammer isn't a game or universe for him.

My group is a little addicted to most melee being an autofail, I must admit.

Perhaps he hates the unpredictable all-or-nothing charge rules, where a 2D6 roll determines whether you tear your opponent apart in melee or sit there and get shot to bits in the next turn?

Well, it dosent help that mele in general is wastly pointless in 8th.
(and i dont think that will change untill 9th)

Well, it ignores cover and -1 to hit shenanigans.

bring an all Melee army and drink his tears.

The Emperor has the answer.

FrozenDwarf wrote:Well, it dosent help that mele in general is wastly pointless in 8th.
(and i dont think that will change untill 9th)

Martel732 wrote:Well, it ignores cover and -1 to hit shenanigans.

supreme overlord wrote:bring an all Melee army and drink his tears.

Yeah, times are definitely changing Welcome back Melee.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Well, it dosent help that mele in general is wastly pointless in 8th.
(and i dont think that will change untill 9th)

Yeah you haven't faced something like a speedy Genestealer force list have you?

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Well, it dosent help that mele in general is wastly pointless in 8th.
(and i dont think that will change untill 9th)

When a 4 pt. Guardsman can stop a 300 point Land Raider from shooting just by being within an inch of it at the beginning of its turn, it's a powerful tool in the toolbox.

 LordofHats wrote:
The Emperor has the answer.

Chain-Katanas. I'll buy that.