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Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get ven dreads. We get the mortis contemptor though I think.

Indeed, I played the ven Dreads in my GK army.

Ven dreads are great glass cannons, but they are easy to take out. A little better if you give them a Deredeo big brother.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I feel like space Marines in general are an entry army but require a lot of skills to be played right. Every mistake is very, very costly.
Playing then competitively requires a lot of training and planning.
I feel like other army are more forgiving and easier to play good and learn less steeply.

BA should be well playable at a higher level since they have a large variety of units, more than any other chapter.

Another question: How about the inclusion of Armiger Helverins or a Knight to bolster a BA army?

Variety only matters if they are good enough or get good enough buffs. Not like marine armies overall lack different units and options for those units. If options matteref Marines would be king and knights suck.

There are some rather good units in BA but we lack good long range options. Doesnt matter if you can kill anything on the charge with your expensive units if you cant shoot away the cheap screening units in the way.

I feel my BA list is much stronger when I include loyal 32 with some mortars and wyverns to clear the way. That is something BA cant really do on its own that well since whirlwinds are so much worse point for point than IG artillery that it isnt even worth it to try.

Whirlwinds with dante and lts are almost decent.

I really feel like BA shoot better than punch sometimes. DC in particular are very lackluster imo. Punching involves surviving the counterpunch to me.

 wuestenfux wrote:

How about the inclusion of two Armiger Helverins.

Helverins are pretty tasty and bring some firepower that Marines tend to lack with both high RoF and the flat 3 damage. They are great at taking out multi-wound models with invulnerable saves like Necron Wraiths, DE skimmers and the like.

If you just want chaff clearance there are better options but Helverins certainly fill a valuable role against certain types of targets.

Martel732 wrote:
Whirlwinds with dante and lts are almost decent.

Decent for 493 pts. That has got to be the most expensive chaff clearing combo in the game. For that you get almost 5 wyvern.

Its not just for chaff. And it woud be part of a list already taking dante. There are worse marine combos, as ignore los is $$ in 8th.

Spending 175pts for Dante so he can give rerolls for whirlwinds. It is just cheaper and way more effective to get loyal 32 for free and then buy mortars/wyverns/basilisks instead of 3 whirlwinds. With rerolls to hit the whirlwind is almost at the same level as the guard counterparts but you have a 175pts melee character babysitting them in a corner out of LOS. Having 32 bodies and 5cp doing stuff instead of wasting Dante is way better.

Dante is in a bad place. His reroll ability is best with ranged which isnt what BA is good at and you just waste a lot of points doing nothing if thats how you use him. And for melee we already have many ways to get rerolls to failed to hit rolls, especially for sanguinary guard which he has 0 synergy whit for some reason. If he at least gave the ability to reroll any hit so you could reroll even with -to hit modifiers he would be good. Thats what I feel I need, not an overpriced Chaptermaster that can only do one thing while paying for 2.

I said it was for lists that were already using him.

I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.

I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.

Dante with the new repulsor executioner could be usable, but we cant use the executioner. You cant replace <CHAPTER> with <BLOOD ANGELS>. And since vigilus defiant we are no longer space marines. And with the new primaris geneseed we may lose red thirst and black rage. It doesnt look good for BA.

BA just got executioner, but it went up to pre-CA case cost. Probably a misprint, but who knows?

Primaris have red thrist. No black rage. At the current price point of DC, good riddance.

We got an overpriced SM tank, wow. Just like all other SM tanks. Exactly what we need

Yeah, the executioner thing is really disappointing.

Martel732 wrote:
I said it was for lists that were already using him.

I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.

I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.

But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.

Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?

 Emicrania wrote:
Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?

In practice, no. The opponent defeats that in their movement phase. No one is falling for it. Remember you cant declare a charge beyond 12", no matter what you can roll. Most opponrnts use 4" spacing to take away the second rank.

BA really need gsc tech to function competently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klickor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I said it was for lists that were already using him.

I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.

I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.

But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.

Thats the problem, isnt it? I hate soup and souping together chapter tactics isnt worth the miniscule win% bump. Look up 40k stats. It doesnt matter how you soup marine primary lists, they are bad.

What means: gsc tech?

Martel732 wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?

In practice, no. The opponent defeats that in their movement phase. No one is falling for it. Remember you cant declare a charge beyond 12", no matter what you can roll. Most opponrnts use 4" spacing to take away the second rank.

BA really need gsc tech to function competently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klickor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I said it was for lists that were already using him.

I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.

I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.

But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.

Thats the problem, isnt it? I hate soup and souping together chapter tactics isnt worth the miniscule win% bump. Look up 40k stats. It doesnt matter how you soup marine primary lists, they are bad.

40k stats is a bad resource for 90% of this community. It's no surprise you're peddling it, but it's irrelevant.

Lists are one thing - the general is far more important. Get better at the game before complaining about the list win rate.

Yes, I just hit you with a much deserved "git gud"

The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.

Which means, no vehicles except Dreads and termite drills (surprisingly effective).

Its not powerful when getting close is suicidal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maxamato wrote:
What means: gsc tech?

Strats that get within 3" and such. Not sure how much that helps given the above. Theres no getting around glass cannon problems.

DC, for example, can not afford to take smites. Ever. Yet its hard to prevent.

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.

Which means, no vehicles except Dreads and termite drills (surprisingly effective).

I indeed play 2 Quadra laser contemptors and 1 leviathan with double stormcannon. How are the termite drills effective for you? what do you put inside? I m really interested!

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.

Did i miss something about a rule change for BA ?? Our chapter tactic only works when we charge, get charged, or perform a heroic intervention. When we fail our charge our chapter tactic does nothing. When we don't get charged our chapter tactic does nothing. And it does nothing in the next round when still in melee after we charge, got charged, heroically intervened. When we fall back we can't charge, again our chapter tactic is useless. Our chapter tactic is pretty useless on dreads because they wound everything T6- on 2s already.

I can engineer around a lot of those issues. I cant do much about bleeding points quickly to a modest number of wounds.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.

Did i miss something about a rule change for BA ?? Our chapter tactic only works when we charge, get charged, or perform a heroic intervention. When we fail our charge our chapter tactic does nothing. When we don't get charged our chapter tactic does nothing. And it does nothing in the next round when still in melee after we charge, got charged, heroically intervened. When we fall back we can't charge, again our chapter tactic is useless. Our chapter tactic is pretty useless on dreads because they wound everything T6- on 2s already.

So why else would you play with the BA rules instead of using Ravenguard rules? Or any other chapter. Just because they are read with blood drops doesnt mean you cant use better rules and still play your blood angels models. Sure you cant use the BA specific stuff then but as you said they are all bad so why use them? If you dont want to play with DC, SG and smashy HQs or focusing on melee, why are you intentionaly handicapping yourself for no good reason?

No one bats an eye for using other chapters rules, especially when marines are in a bad place. If BA, SW and UM were all top 3 but UM nr 1 and BA nr 3then some people would perhaps feel you are just WAAC if younplayed your BA as UM or SW each game instead of what they are actually painted as. Or perhaps if you are souping and using different rules for the models but as long as its mono marines only an donkey-cave would care.

As a Dark Angels player who is toying with the idea of adding Blood Angels to my army I find the way you guys talk about your army to be amusing.

We have 2 builds that are semi functional and both get blown off the board by any decent top tier army.

I dont play BA anymore. Our chapter tactic is good for one turn, we have to get all units into melee, and spend every CP we have to maximize damage. If we dont do enough damage we die like flies and lose the game. Thats just ridiculous.

 Reivax26 wrote:
As a Dark Angels player who is toying with the idea of adding Blood Angels to my army I find the way you guys talk about your army to be amusing.

We have 2 builds that are semi functional and both get blown off the board by any decent top tier army.

You are the one worse army. Congrats.

No Grey Knights are supposedly worse. Anyway our problem is that we can fight a lot of armies pretty well, especially the Ravenwing lists but the Soup lists with multiple Knights in them are our kryptonite. We just don't have the firepower to crack them.

Also Chaos has given me all kinds of problems.

Gencon article is up. Look's like we may be getting a supplement. Chapter trait's look to be making a return for successors. Angels of death rule includes ATSKNF, bolter discipline and a new shock assault rule that gives +1 attack when charging, charged or heroic intervention. That's a nice wee buff.

It's huge for melee output, but fixes none of the problems of getting into melee or surviving enemy shooting.