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2019/12/17 23:41:24
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
I think you're both right re DC. They can blend almost any units they come in to contact with and with aplomb. I've no doubt about there offensive potential. It's my opponent's ability to screen that has rendered them useless against my more regular opponents. I was sick of killling maybe 30 guard or 10 intercessors at best and then watch them turn to vapour without making their points back in too many games they became pointless. But! I do realise that's more about my group than DC.
Now?! DC Intercessors I'm interested in.
2019/12/18 01:30:49
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Why ? Only one can have a melee weapon, only LD7, they are slow, no JP, cant deepstrike, they need a transport to get them anywhere, and keep them safe. They need CP to work, so you need even more intercessors as a troop choice to generate CP for them.
2019/12/18 08:24:55
Subject: Re:Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Personally I'm loving DC, always do work for me. Whether its murderising screens, locking down vehicles, pulling down flyers or just distracting the enemy and causing them to alter their game plan. A unit doesn't need to always make its points back to be considered useful, it needs to contribute to your game plan and generate new options or remove them from your opponent.
Complaining about their durability? DC are super killy for their points, very mobile, with a bolter they have a now decent ranged weapon. They are more durable than a standard marine and have access to a couple of durability enhancing strats. I think you are being unrealistic asking for more really, they are at a very fair points level.. You compare their durability to intercessors in cover, perhaps put the DC in cover, hide behind terrain, lock something in combat or give your opponents something else to think about.
What armies are you playing against that you only ever get to charge screens? DC fly and get to move and advance before the game, they have massive range of possible movement, only a couple of armies can field enough cheap chaff to fully block them out. There is an awful lot of spacemarines, eldar, necrons flooding the meta at the moment, they don't have the numbers or desire to put out huge screens. If you do face screens then take a turn making some holes ready to exploit turn two or charge in a be sure to take some prisoners. Forlorn fury is a great strat not just for getting a first turn charge in but also for positioning your DC so they don't get killed turn one, if you can't get them in or behind cover turn one then play with more terrain.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 08:26:54
How do you feel about the death masks with the new strat? In 8th I have always run my sanguinary guard without them, but the -1 could come on handy (if only also worked on shoothing fase...)
2019/12/18 13:27:25
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
So it sounds like the answer on death co is either "really useful" or "simply dies".
From my 2 games / experience with them I found them useful myself, and i understand why my opponents both focused on killing them after their initial charge. Being able t1 to pick them up and redeploy anywhere then charge 3d6+1 seemed very good.
Honestly it didn't even occur to me that vanguard vets were an option. I have 10 of them for my black templars I was working on and now the idea of 15 death co hitting t1 and causing mayhem then them hitting t2 to finish the job is very enticing, if not point heavy. My army uses no vehicles at all, mostly primaris phobos units so my t1 has me having 0 units in my deployment zone, with drop pods with valued hq's and tacticals dropping in t1 to do what they need to do. In my 2nd game t3 when 5 tactical marines charged an enemy chaplain they put out 22 attacks, 1 for base, 2 for charging / assault doctrine, and 1 for unleash rage. Add the -1 ap for assault doctrine and the srg with his chain sword, 22 attacks wounding on 3's is damn nice for even base tacticals to put out (the chaplain, he did not survive the encounter btw).
But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
2019/12/18 14:16:04
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
That's adding 75 pts of wargear to a 270 point unit. That's not too bad, but you are already up to 23 points/W with no invulns. A couple of smites, and and some intercessor fire and that's 350 pts gone with no heavy weapons dedicated. This is why I quit using them. I can do the same job with units that are far less vulnerable.
2019/12/18 14:35:59
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Azuza001 wrote: But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
Power fists are better than Thunder Hammers for the points unless you are equipping an entire squad. The reason is you can get nearly 2 Fists for the price of 1 Hammer meaning you get twice as many attacks (not to mention the bolters which can be a nice bonus). Now Fist attacks average 2 damage while Hammers have a flat 3. This mean that even against large targets, Fists put out more damage per point than Hammers. If you are facing MEQs or similar then Fists are nearly twice as good as Hammers.
The only edge case where Hammers are slightly better is against 3W models where you can be sure that each wound is a kill with nothing wasted but that is sufficiently specialised that I would not worry about it too much.
3 Hammers is 48 points. You can get 5 fists for 45 points which will perform better on average. Hammers are best used on units where you want to max out the damage (e.g. Captain Smash). But in a squad with mixed weapons, I would always take the 5 Fists over 3 Hammers.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
2019/12/18 14:46:38
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
2019/12/18 15:03:42
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
15 seems like complete overkill. What can 15 achieve that 10 realistically can't? They get enough attacks to blender most chaff with just 10 models. Flamer pistols are terrible - bolters are much better in general and cheaper as well. If you give them flame pistols they get a bunch of S3 hits on screens, probably don't wipe the screen, then charge and wipe the screen. Remove the pistols and you end up with the same result for cheaper because bolter fire plus DC charge clears most units that aren't super-tough. Your proposed unit, without the flamers is almost 350 points, which is far too much for what are essentially 15 Space Marines. Drop to 10 with just 3 TH and they're still a bit too expensive for my tastes but probably just as effective in practice as your unit of 15.
I prefer TH over PF mainly for the guaranteed damage. Flat 3 damage is much, much better in practice than d3 damage and allows DC to go hunting vehicles or monsters and makes them very strong against Primaris too because each TH wound is a guaranteed kill, rather than a 2/3 chance of a kill. If you're backing them up with Lemartes, his ability now allows you to re-roll hit dice so you can re-roll 3s for TH attacks, making them very efficient and likely to kill some pretty tough targets. 3 TH with Lemartes support gets 9 hits, which is likely 7-8 wounds, which is more than enough to take out most vehicles and monsters without invulnerable saves. The PF does much less overall.
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
Litanies are used at the start of the turn, so you can't use them to buff units that arrive as reinforcements. It's one of the many frustrating things about some of the BA unit interactions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 15:06:21
2019/12/18 15:09:54
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Also if the rules lawyers of dakka are correct. You can also place the DC 9" away from infltrators or phobos captain when they disembarl from the drop pod, which in other hand needs to be placed 12" away.
2019/12/18 23:51:47
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
Litanies are used at the start of the turn, so you can't use them to buff units that arrive as reinforcements. It's one of the many frustrating things about some of the BA unit interactions.
Lemartes/chaplain is already on the battlefield and can recite a litany at the start of the battle round, then gets removed and set up again with UWOF,
2019/12/19 14:04:15
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Theyre worth their weight in gold. I regularly run nine.
2019/12/19 23:00:21
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
I haven't tried them yet but they look good on paper. They are a bit pricey (cash-wise) but a lot of people make them go further by putting the extra weapons and bits on 3 easy-to-build Reivers to make a second squad on the cheap.
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
2019/12/20 17:56:12
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
Outside of very specific cases (seriously, the possible permutations for Eliminators are *CRAZY*, especially when you start factoring in rerolls), you're better off sticking with three rifles. The carbine is, believe it or not, more expensive, and only grants the capacity to move after overwatch. You still retain the ability to guide fire if you keep the sergeant with a sniper. It gives you some additional flexibility to the unit that opting for a carbine doesnt.
2019/12/20 18:18:08
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
I've tried all the variants and how I use em, I use them out of LoS so I get +2 to hit anyway, so no need for weapon upgrade. Also with ITC terrain rules, you can't withdraw from combat if you get charged through the building you are camping because first floor is LoS blocking.
2019/12/20 22:27:01
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Slipspace wrote: Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
For Las Fusils, the +1 to Hit/Wound is definitely more points-effective than an extra shot. For sniper rifles, I am not quite so sure.
Still, it is not a costly option and the ability to withdraw after firing overwatch makes them great for screening.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
2019/12/20 23:23:36
Subject: Re:Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
The Srgs +1 to hit/wound ability gets significantly worse when you start losing models, I go for all snipers. Makes out of LOS shooting alot better and you can get +1 to hit elsewhere.
On another point, I used some assault terminators today in a friendly game. Dropped them down turn two, got an assault in then lost a couple to shooting. Assaulted in turn 3 and a basic dude is smashing about with 4 TH attacks, this unit can now get some serious work done.
How are people running SG at this point? What support or what loadout?
EDIT:
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/28 01:46:02
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
2019/12/28 01:42:23
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
I'm running 10 SG, 5 swords, 3 fists and 2 axes. I chum them with Astorath and a sanguinary ancient. They are an absolute terror and my group hate them.
2019/12/28 10:03:03
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
SG used to be all PF all the time but I think with the new costs for swords and axes a mix works better. For a squad of 10 5 swords and either a 2/3 or 3/2 split of fists and axes is good. I usually run 6-8 in a squad as I find 10 to be too much of a points sink and, depending on terrain and the enemy, Deep Striking 10 where I want can be a problem.
With the army list above, I'm not sure you need so many Storm Shields in the VV squad. In my experience giving an entire squad SS is rarely worth the points. You rarely need every single save to be a 3++ so usually just keeping half of the squad with SS is fine. SS are so ridiculously cheap now though it's not a huge deal, but something to consider. Also, I've found shotgun Scouts to be the worst out of all the Scout loadouts. They don't really do anything bolters can't but have shorter range.
2019/12/28 11:14:26
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Oh wow. There's that. They only get doctrines when they're pure BA? Like, I can't even ally in an admech spearhead? Uh. Anybody feel like it might still be worth the trade?
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
2019/12/28 14:41:20
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Oh wow. There's that. They only get doctrines when they're pure BA? Like, I can't even ally in an admech spearhead? Uh. Anybody feel like it might still be worth the trade?
If you ally with other space marines from codex space marines you keep doctrines but you'll have to wait till the end of January for Dark Angels. They're in the next psychic awakening and they'll inevitably get the rule there, same as we did in ours! Otherwise I think Doctrines do make our army much stronger.
2019/12/29 15:18:37
Subject: Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius
So no batreps, no comp lists over the internet. What have been your takeaways post PA?
There seemed to be some buzz on incursors, anyone got any actual field experience. My biggest pout is whether we need a spearhead (dedicated anti-tank) or can we just back dual batallion and big blob of SG, SG ancient VVets/DC..
Also yet to try out DC in drop pod to break the 12" anti-DS meta of new shiny SM.
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