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It needs to be closer to 50 because deep strike sucks so much compared to before.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.

Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?

The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.

If the list didn't have a other efficient units that DS the 'cost' would seem very different. But when VVs for example are good, and can deepstrike without the 85 point premium, the Pod loses a lot of it's luster. C'est la vie.

Martel732 wrote:
You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.

JP can do the same, for much, much less points. DC gets them for 3 pts. per model. And it gives them 12" move, the ability to shoot after falling back and the FLY keyword, ignore terrain and models. Drop pods are almost useless for BA, they shouldnt cost more than 30.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.

Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?

The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.

The Rhino is priced fine. Drop Pods are only worth 50 pts.

“Enemy screens notwithstanding” is the caveat that needs to have an asterisk next to it that says *this is why they aren’t worth the cost”. I pay 2 points per model for most of my squads to put them 9.01” away from where I want them. I don’t feel like paying much more than that just to drop infantry and a stormbolter.

The reasons given for not using Drop Pods are overall confusing to me. It's not as if I said "I want to use a Drop Pod for my assault marines" or "I just can't figure out how to get my Vanguard Veterans where I want them."

I understand everything everyone has said.

What I said I was doing with the Drop Pod was using it to deploy Mephiston and some Sternguard, neither of which can deep strike. In all reality, the only reason I've decided to use the Drop Pod at all was because I wanted to deep strike Mephiston, but it would be a waste to JUST take him, so I asked myself "what other unit do I like that could use some movement shinanigans" and lo' and behold Sternguard, which I like and have painted, were available.

It STILL didn't feel like an overwhelming reason to run Mephiston in the Drop Pod, but I also liked the idea of having a Company Ancient out in the scrum, throwing out his buff (along with the relic banner buff) to the Sternguard and the Inceptors (and other potential deep strikers) I will also be dropping into the area. Suddenly, I liked the idea of the firebase that would be appearing wherever I'd like, and the 85pt cost was worth it.

Now, you can tell me there are better things to do with all of those points, and you could even be correct, but it's all subjective, and we're suddenly talking about more than just the efficiency of a Rhino vs a Drop Pod. We're talking about tactics, personal preference, etc...

Drop pods should stay the same price, be required to drop outside of 9" from the closest enemy unit as normal, and allow you to immediately deploy the dropped units within 3" of the drop pod with no minimum distance from the enemy. Then it'd be worth the points.

Having used the sternguard as you intend (just with a lieutenant, instead of Mephisto) I see your point. For me, the larger the game, the better option a drop pod is.

You land the pod, shoot a nice volley (stormbolters or spec bolters), mop up the screening units and then charge.

The key for me, is if you want to deepstrike or not with the sternguard to tag along Mephisto or not. If Mephisto going solo for the close quarters is no concern for you, then I see the drop pod as a viable option. If you want to launch all of them, I think is better to embark them in a Rhino or Razorback. You loose the ability to deploy anywhere, but you have the certainty that all will go together, and with 12" mov, plus 3 from disembarking and 6 more in T2, you can be almost anywhere you want.

Sure, the enemy can destroy the transport, and stuck you midfield, but that´s a chance you have to take.

Anyway, that kind of presence in their deployment area or rear field can unnerve some players, and that is worth a try at least.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The reasons given for not using Drop Pods are overall confusing to me. It's not as if I said "I want to use a Drop Pod for my assault marines" or "I just can't figure out how to get my Vanguard Veterans where I want them."

I understand everything everyone has said.

What I said I was doing with the Drop Pod was using it to deploy Mephiston and some Sternguard, neither of which can deep strike. In all reality, the only reason I've decided to use the Drop Pod at all was because I wanted to deep strike Mephiston, but it would be a waste to JUST take him, so I asked myself "what other unit do I like that could use some movement shinanigans" and lo' and behold Sternguard, which I like and have painted, were available.

It STILL didn't feel like an overwhelming reason to run Mephiston in the Drop Pod, but I also liked the idea of having a Company Ancient out in the scrum, throwing out his buff (along with the relic banner buff) to the Sternguard and the Inceptors (and other potential deep strikers) I will also be dropping into the area. Suddenly, I liked the idea of the firebase that would be appearing wherever I'd like, and the 85pt cost was worth it.

Now, you can tell me there are better things to do with all of those points, and you could even be correct, but it's all subjective, and we're suddenly talking about more than just the efficiency of a Rhino vs a Drop Pod. We're talking about tactics, personal preference, etc...

Its just about maths and efficiency

Assault marine squad 65 pts
Assault marine squad with jumpacks 80 pts

Price of deepstrikeing 9" 15pts per unit of 5

Drop pod price 85pts

So it would need 5+ units to make it efficient (but it cant hold that many) (75pts worth of deepstrikeing)

Its guns are worth 2pts-5pts of its value so not much value from shooting

Now I get you can argue it has Wounds but largely your opponent will ignore them as a lone stormbolter or deathwind launcher just isnt a priority target. Unless they are in the way but 85pts per speed bump is a high price and you would need multiple to stop them just walking past.

So the only actual value comes from delivering something that couldn't deepstrike otherwise.

However if that could effectively be delivered through psychic powers or a transport that can actually shoot for a similar price or just hold up in a bunker and have the range to hit something then its probably better not to.

So mephiston plus sternguard your paying 85pts for 18 pts worth of deepstrike

Well, you could place them in objektives. So the enemy has to deal with it.


And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?

I had really nice games with a Tactical (5, Plasma, Combi-Plasma), Mephiston, and four Veterans with Plasma in a pod. Even if it isn't the best use, it's a hell of fun.

Covenant wrote:
Well, you could place them in objektives. So the enemy has to deal with it.


And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?

I had really nice games with a Tactical (5, Plasma, Combi-Plasma), Mephiston, and four Veterans with Plasma in a pod. Even if it isn't the best use, it's a hell of fun.

You could but then a 55pt scout squad would do the same job better being troops and having more models and cheaper. In fact if the two options contest each other the scout squad can stay in combat with drop pod indefinitely holding the objective while remaining protected so the drop pod doesnt do well at all

Works under the beta rule but not really because the first thing Mephiston does is charge away from the pod and the character rule doesnt apply to overwatch.

Thats the distinction between use and have fun with and use efficiently. Most models you can use and have fun with only some models are efficient

Covenant wrote:

And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?

Thats a neat idea. The pod would be closer to the enemy, so they couldnt shoot him, or any other character. Also a pod can get you linebreaker.

A pod can greatly reduce your deployment count if you play with lots of characters, 3 libbys and a captain for example, and 5 company vets for protection. The price of the JPs for them exceeds the cost of the pod. You could add a techmarine to repair the pod, which serves as character protection.

A techmarine just to repair a pod really? Thats just throwing good pts after bad. Also 3 libarians won't be effective because you cant repeat cast the buff spells. If you're wanting to multi character pod Mephiston /tycho the lost make better choices as both at least benefit.

You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.

Martel732 wrote:
You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.

I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...

U02dah4 wrote:
A techmarine just to repair a pod really? Thats just throwing good pts after bad. Also 3 libarians won't be effective because you cant repeat cast the buff spells. If you're wanting to multi character pod Mephiston /tycho the lost make better choices as both at least benefit.

Of course not to just repair the pod. The techmarine has a 2+ armor sv and his BS is 2+. He is only 62 pts. I think he is pretty much underrated.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.

I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...

It's mortal wounds that don't have to hit the closest unit. Can't hurt, might help. Blood boil is brutal vs T3 armies.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...

I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.

 p5freak wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...

I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.

The psychic strat is only appealing to make sure Quickening goes off, or to give better odds for a super smite. Something that's obviously not going to be used on every game turn, but that turn where the +2 to the psychic roll would REALLY be nice, I can see spending the command point...

 p5freak wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...

I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.

Eh, I think the stratagem is quite legit, if like every stratagem, you build for it.

Take using Empyric Channelling on Mephiston for example. In support you have two basic Librarians each casting Smite and one each of Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius. That's reasonable value for their points spend.

You then have a Mephiston with knowledge of 3 spells + Smite; Wings, Quickening, Blood Boil and now the means to cast 3. You pop wings and can either cast a +2 Quickening which is fantastic extra reliability for a WC7 spell that you don't want denied, allowing you to charge very deep, or you can pop a wings move and then throw out both blood boil and smite for max mortal wounds, with a +2 cast boosting up the mortal wound potential of either. Blood Boil has no target limitations.

The only problem I see with dropping the pod near an objective, is once your Sternguard are dead, which isn't that hard for most armies... You have an immobile drop pod near an objective.

A unit of Cultists can charge the drop pod, and will be eternally safe from shooting on the objective since the drop pod cannot fall back.

I honestly feel like the better play would be to bait an enemy forwards by placing cheap Scout squads on objectives, since they HAVE to be taken care of. Thst leaves the enemy open to retaliation from a Sternguard squad who hopped out of a Rhino, or Mephiston who hopped out of a Razorback.

Three Librarians, a Techmarine and Sternguard in a single drop pod? Ugh... Just why, dropping in a ton of points that is all pretty easy to kill seems so wasteful.

You drop in more. Drop in SG, and cast unleash rage on them and then descent of angels with them. Use a libby with the relic pack + wings to eat overwatch. Make him the warlord for lulz.

Yeah, screw it. I want Drop Pods full of Scouts. Nobody will expect Scouts in Drop Pods.

Might as well put an Inquisitor and space monkey in there as well because why not.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Yeah, screw it. I want Drop Pods full of Scouts. Nobody will expect Scouts in Drop Pods.

Might as well put an Inquisitor and space monkey in there as well because why not.

The space monkey killed me lol xD

Went through LVO data looking over BA.

Low records:
434 lem, cap, ldred, sg, D.C.
417 cap wl, meph, lem, sang, fire raptor, D.C., several primaris
414 cap, ldred, stormraven, DC, VV
410 cap wl, asty, corb, ldred, cessors, DC
400 Dante, meph, sang, prst, sg, sga relic banner, razorbacks
342 cap wl, prst, termchap, ldred, DC, odd vehicles
332 cap, lem, lib, DC, sg, sga
307 cap wl, lem, corb, DC, sg, inceptors, comp ancient relic banner
(264) lem, lib, sang, DC, AM
259 cap, lt, termlib wl, sg, inceptors, quad mortars
217 (Fleshtearers!) chapx2, lt, tech, DC, odd vehicles
174 lib, prst, sang, cap wl, meph, lem, DC, sga, AM

Above 3/3 record:

145 cap, lt, prst, lib wl, sang, sg, sga relic banner, inceptors, culexus
(139) cap, lem, meph, DC, sg, raptors (lias+grav cannons)
119 cap wl, lem, cap, DC, VV, inceptors, devs, snipers
(73) meph, lem, DC, DA, plasma obliterator
36 cap, lem, sang wl, DC, sg, sga relic banner, scout bikes, devs, <brigade>
(19) meph, lem, DC, AM/sisters
9 meph, lem, chap, prst, DC, sg, AM infantry
6 cap wl, lib, sang, prst, lem, DC, sg, sga relic banner, comp ancient, cessors
(5) prst, lib, chap, sg, sga, AM

Key info
-cap is literally always captain hammer loadout, often with wing relic. Some lists didn't mark their relics or warlord.
-meph = Mephiston, lem = Lemartes, sang = Sanguinor, sga = sanguinary ancient, ldred = Libby dreadnought, corb = Corbulo, asty = Astorath, prst = sanguinary priest, chap = chaplain, DC = death company, sg = sanguinary guard, VV = vanguard vets, devs = devastators, lt = lieutenant,
wl = warlord.

The number in front is their placing. Armies with a parentheses around this number indicate a large presence of non-BA elements in the list (in excess of 1/4 of the list.) When this is the case I listed the ally. I generally didn't bother listing units that were only in as a troop tax and/or screening. Most lists had 3x scouts or maybe a tac squad mixed in.

Most popular units by list count (out of 21 lists, ignoring troops):
-DC 17
-captain hammer 14
-Lemartes 13
-Sanguinary guard 11
-Mephiston 7
-sanguinary ancient 7
-Sanguinor 6

Holy carp that captain gets around. I was amused at the fact that I didn't have to note the captain load-outs because literally everyone who ran one ran him as captain hammer.

Thinking of custodes vanguard ally deep striking a 5 up banner invuln by our death company could be nice without having ing to work out shield of sanguinius on them

How many people brought (or tend to bring) the relic hammer over the wings or no relic at all.

2+ to hit & re-roll 1's on a Thunderhamner seems crazy good

(I'm also planning on giving him Death Visions & Forlorn Fury...and the great fighter Warlord trait)

Niz-mizz if I could exalt more than once I would.

Awesome post, thanks for digging through all of that data.

Hmm, so lib dread is a bad choice capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?) seems a req.

I'm looking into running some scouts, DCs and the capt and prst as a bat in a soup list (+ custodes and either IG or Celestine + assassins). Going to have to play around with it to see what works, I really wish I could use dreads but I haven't seen a list do well with them yet...

bananathug wrote:
Niz-mizz if I could exalt more than once I would.

Awesome post, thanks for digging through all of that data.

Hmm, so lib dread is a bad choice capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?) seems a req.

I'm looking into running some scouts, DCs and the capt and prst as a bat in a soup list (+ custodes and either IG or Celestine + assassins). Going to have to play around with it to see what works, I really wish I could use dreads but I haven't seen a list do well with them yet...

Yeah, I haven't been able to make any Dreads work for me outside of VERY casual games where both of us are taking stuff just because it looks cool. Even than I would have been far better off just not taking them

I understand that Captain loadout is really good, I just don't see myself running it.

bananathug wrote:

...capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?)...

A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.