Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius

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**kryczek**

Hi all. With Devs being the current conversation topic I thought I would ask what everyone thought of this spearhead detachment as part of a 2k list I'm constructing for fighting in a marine/primaris/DG heavy meta.

Spearhead detachment: 501pts
Lieutenant:storm bolter,
devs(5):2xML, 1xLC, bolter dude, sarge, cherub.
devs(5):2xML, 1xLC, bolter dude, sarge cherub.
devs(5):3xGC(grav-cannon), bolter dude, sarge.

The lieutenant is for his buff and no other reason as the re-roll to wound is just to handy against my regular opponent's. Also remember this is just a single detachment in my force and a captain and a relic banner will hopefully be backing them up from other section's of my list, in an ideal world that is. The GC are in also to allow me to try a grav bomb in the future. Maybe pair them up with Sternguard in a pod or in a rhino with X maybe or even a razorback. The multi-wound damage from the GC I'm finding is hurting DG especially as it cause's multiple DR roll's and on a 3+ a primaris dies outright after wounding once.

Picture, description and list of all option's available, alternative's and possible double spearhead for those who are interested:

Spoiler:

I think that covers most of the basic's for what I'm fighting most these day's and some of the reason's why I'm using what I'm using and possible alternative's. Does anyone have any other suggestion's or better idea's or even warning's for me before I try it?

Also 500th post woo hoo go me and it only took me 7 and a half year's

**tag8833**

Having not run Devs I wouldn't know, but I wonder if the Flakk Missile and Hellfire shells strategem make it useful to put one ML and one HB in most Dev squads. Probably the CP isn't worth it in most scenarios, but it's an extra tool in the arsenal.

I remember a tourney at the end of 6th where my buddy played a guy running 2 units of Devs that was 1 ML, 1 HB, 1 LC, and 1 PC. He laughed about how this guy must be new, and that he is probably running exactly what comes in the box. I'm actually pretty happy that 8th ed is less punishing to new players in the way that 6th and 7th were.

**NH Gunsmith**

Martel732 wrote:
Okay thats a lot of missiles.

I'll have to try the dc trick. So sick of guardsmen spam.

Hah, yeah my new list has 4 squads of Devs with 3 Missile Launchers and a Cherub in each at 2k. It slays screens.

Our local Guard player has lost every game against me because his 7 Russes rarely get to shoot anymore.

Current List:

Spoiler:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

The 4 Scout squads keep my gunline safe from deep striking units for the most part, with the Bolter Scouts in the rear.

tag8833 wrote:
Having not run Devs I wouldn't know, but I wonder if the Flakk Missile and Hellfire shells strategem make it useful to put one ML and one HB in most Dev squads. Probably the CP isn't worth it in most scenarios, but it's an extra tool in the arsenal.

I remember a tourney at the end of 6th where my buddy played a guy running 2 units of Devs that was 1 ML, 1 HB, 1 LC, and 1 PC. He laughed about how this guy must be new, and that he is probably running exactly what comes in the box. I'm actually pretty happy that 8th ed is less punishing to new players in the way that 6th and 7th were.

I have never used those Strategems (Flakk or Hellfire), I run out of CP too quickly to even consider them. But, 4 units of Devs generally take care of any flying units with ease when supported by a Captain and LT.

**p5freak**

NH Gunsmith wrote:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

You do know that the standard of sacrifice only works on a model basis, not unit ? I wonder how you fit so many models next to the ancient. Only models within 6" get the 5+++, same for the 4+ roll to shoot before they die.

**Spado**

p5freak wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

You do know that the standard of sacrifice only works on a model basis, not unit ? I wonder how you fit so many models next to the ancient. Only models within 6" get the 5+++, same for the 4+ roll to shoot before they die.

That s pretty easy: stick the three dev units close to each others and the guy with the banner right behind them. You ll easily reach them all.

**NH Gunsmith**

p5freak wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

You do know that the standard of sacrifice only works on a model basis, not unit ? I wonder how you fit so many models next to the ancient. Only models within 6" get the 5+++, same for the 4+ roll to shoot before they die.

I do know it works on a model, not unit basis. With the loss of templates there is nothing stopping me from making a bit ol' blob of Devs around the banner. It is essentially a 12" circular bubble... It isn't hard to fit 20 Marines in a 12" circular bubble.

**p5freak**

NH Gunsmith wrote:
p5freak wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

You do know that the standard of sacrifice only works on a model basis, not unit ? I wonder how you fit so many models next to the ancient. Only models within 6" get the 5+++, same for the 4+ roll to shoot before they die.

I do know it works on a model, not unit basis. With the loss of templates there is nothing stopping me from making a bit ol' blob of Devs around the banner. It is essentially a 12" circular bubble... It isn't hard to fit 20 Marines in a 12" circular bubble.

Ok, but are they out in the open ? I can't imagine placing a 12" circular bubble on the first or second floor of a ruin. Even on the ground floor not everyone can draw LOS. Not everyone can shoot. Isn't 4 dev squads overdoing it ?

**NH Gunsmith**

p5freak wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:
p5freak wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:

The beauty of keeping the Standard of Sacrifice near the Devs, is even if I don't get first turn, any shooting at the Devs gives me the chance to fire Frag Missiles at the screens during my opponents turn.

Most people have been reluctant to shoot at them anymore since it can be painful losing a vehicle (or Ghostkeel like in my last game) in their turn.

You do know that the standard of sacrifice only works on a model basis, not unit ? I wonder how you fit so many models next to the ancient. Only models within 6" get the 5+++, same for the 4+ roll to shoot before they die.

I do know it works on a model, not unit basis. With the loss of templates there is nothing stopping me from making a bit ol' blob of Devs around the banner. It is essentially a 12" circular bubble... It isn't hard to fit 20 Marines in a 12" circular bubble.

Ok, but are they out in the open ? I can't imagine placing a 12" circular bubble on the first or second floor of a ruin. Even on the ground floor not everyone can draw LOS. Not everyone can shoot. Isn't 4 dev squads overdoing it ?

With GW terrain, very little actually blocks line of sight with the ruins. I haven't had many issues with not having a target to slam Missiles into. There may be one squad in the open, but that is acceptable to me, they still have a 5+ FnP from the banner, and a 4+ to shoot in the enemy's turn if they do die.

And I don't think I am overdoing it, one of my regular opponents brings over 60 Tzaangors, 4 Vortex Beasts, 9 of the stupid disc riders, and 4 Tzeentch Daemon Princes. Our Tau player runs around 40 Drones protecting his Coldstar, 2 Ghostkeels and 3 Broadsides. A Tyranid player with around 150 models between the Genestealers and Gaunts, a Daemons player who has 36 Flamers in his army, and a Guard player with 7-8 Russes and a Basilisk.

**Martel732**

He is NOT overdoing it. I'm thinking how I can work this concept into my lists.

**NH Gunsmith**

Martel732 wrote:
He is NOT overdoing it. I'm thinking how I can work this concept into my lists.

Yeah, although we are good a punching stuff in the face, we still shoot just as well as Marines. And with the Banner our Devs have better survivability than Iron Hands, while still being a force that most T3 characters are reluctant to charge.

A few games ago a desperate Sisters player charged my Devs with Celestine and her Geminae. The Geminae died to mass Frag Missile overwatch, and Celestine even took a wound. My Devs also kept getting to punch her back as they died, stripping more wounds off and leaving her pray for the buff Captain who had Artisan of War as his melee trait that game. My gunline wins games, my Death Company buy time for the gunline to keep shooting.

Watched too many bat reps for Blood Angels where the player takes almost nothing but assault units, and wonders why he keep failing charges and getting blasted off the board.

**Decay**

I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

**Bremon**

SG have fists, shooting, 2 wounds, 2+. Easily my choice in that scenario.

**jcd386**

The sang guard are generally more durable against anything that is 1 damage or has low ish AP. They also will do more damage to multi-wound models with their D3 damage. They are more susceptible to plasma, melta, las, etc, though.

**tag8833**

I've done a "is he alright?" level of math trying to justify Vanguard Vets. Basically They are more durable against Overcharged Plasma and Melta then SG. My opinion is that you don't need to run the entire squad with SS, just 3-4. They don't hit nearly as hard as DC (who are more durable against bolters, and basically the same durability vs Assault Cannons). Against anything with more than 1 wound, SG hit harder than VV.

VV have 3 things going for them.
1) Storm Shields.
2) Lightening Claws.
3) Melta Bombs.

Power Axes are worse against most things than power swords. T4 models with bad saves like Orks being the exception. Though power axes and power swords aren't significantly different.

I'd say if you are picking one unit for 1250, I'd go either SG or DC. VV have some charm as a 2nd / backup unit. SG benefit dramatically from the standard of sacrifice (probably on a sanguinary ancient).

I'm building towards a 10 man squad of VV to use as a change of pace unit and my plan is 2 double LC's, 3 SS + CS, and 5 with CS + BP with melta bombs on the sarg, and I'll frequently be looking to combat squad them.

I doubt they will ever make one of my tourney lists though.

**p5freak**

Decay wrote:
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

Why VV ? Company vets cost the same points, and you can equip them with almost everything, except heavy weapons.

**Martel732**

p5freak wrote:
Decay wrote:
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

Why VV ? Company vets cost the same points, and you can equip them with almost everything, except heavy weapons.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will lose jump packs in the future. I suspect the indices will be illegal after all codices are done.

**p5freak**

Martel732 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Decay wrote:
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

Why VV ? Company vets cost the same points, and you can equip them with almost everything, except heavy weapons.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will lose jump packs in the future. I suspect the indices will be illegal after all codices are done.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will gain jump packs in the future, when indices will no longer be valid, if that ever happens.

**Red__Thirst**

Um.

Why not just build out a 5 man squad of Company Veterans with jump packs that are armed with options also available to Vanguard Veterans? Then, you can use them as either-or, and don't have to worry about it?

I'm currently running a 5 man squad of Company Veterans with jump packs, equipped as follows:
2x w/ Chainswords & Storm Shields
1x w/ Power Axe & Storm Shield
1x w/ Power Fist & Storm Shield
Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer & Inferno Pistol

I can put them on the table as either Company or Vanguard Veterans armed this way and work well when fighting big hard hitting targets where their storm shields can ward off the big blows with reasonable effectiveness.

Just my thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

**Ordana**

p5freak wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Decay wrote:
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

Why VV ? Company vets cost the same points, and you can equip them with almost everything, except heavy weapons.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will lose jump packs in the future. I suspect the indices will be illegal after all codices are done.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will gain jump packs in the future, when indices will no longer be valid, if that ever happens.

That would require GW to make a new company vet box. And I think there is a 0% chance we will see none Primaris marines going forward.

(yes you can make JP company vets out of a different box but that is not how GW operates. The units and options being left out of codexes don't have a dedicated model for them)

**NH Gunsmith**

Ordana wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Decay wrote:
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before or is too off topic, but I’m debating whether to take Vanguard Vets with Power Axes and Storm Shields or a unit of Sanguinary Guard in my 1250 points list. In terms of tactical ability, do you think the VV with no ranged weaponry would serve better? They would b much more effective against heavy infantry and have more attacks, but lack power fists. Both can be dropped with the strategem for charges. The VV seem to be the better shield, but SG have a higher armour save. Tactically, I’m stuck.

Why VV ? Company vets cost the same points, and you can equip them with almost everything, except heavy weapons.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will lose jump packs in the future. I suspect the indices will be illegal after all codices are done.

There is a nonzero chance company vets will gain jump packs in the future, when indices will no longer be valid, if that ever happens.
That would require GW to make a new company vet box. And I think there is a 0% chance we will see none Primaris marines going forward.

(yes you can make JP company vets out of a different box but that is not how GW operates. The units and options being left out of codexes don't have a dedicated model for them)

...except for Librarians with Jump Packs. No model but they somehow made the Codex.

**p5freak**

Ordana wrote:
That would require GW to make a new company vet box. And I think there is a 0% chance we will see none Primaris marines going forward.

(yes you can make JP company vets out of a different box but that is not how GW operates. The units and options being left out of codexes don't have a dedicated model for them)

Does GW have all equipment for every model in the codex ? No they dont. There is a dread with multimelta in the codex. But you cant buy it. There is no multimelta for dreads from GW. I'm pretty sure there is more missing equipment across the whole range. Do primaris intercessors come with a powersword in the box ? No, they dont. According to the codex, the sarge can be equipped with a powersword. The BA intercessor sarge can get a chainsword or powersword. There is a chainsword, because there is a BA upgrade sprue included. But no powersword.

**Xirax**

I had the list tailored match against DG last night, rep can be found in the rep section. I used a melta tactical squad and two predators with autocannons, DG lacked anti-tank so it helped against drones. But those flamers just burn through my chaff with ease. Capt hammer fought against a DP.. All in all it was a brutal fight where I think I should have had more aggressive strategy. My plasma cannon in my dev squad made me deploy them closest to enemy in disastrous results.

I'm finishing my devs for next game:
3 devs all with cherubs, two 2x ML, 1x PC squads and one with 2x LC and a PC. For a 1500 points adding both an ancient and noviate feels too much. I've found my SG always perform in multi-purpose unit and they have lot better survivability than DC. Now, if I give the banner of sacrifice to the gunline ancient then SG loses some edge. The game I mentioned I had my SG ancient my warlord with the sacred banner running with SG, I kinda liked it. Can I just bring DC for distraction without Lemmy or is he a must, ehst do you think?

**Martel732**

Which flamers?

**Xirax**

Fething bloat-drone plaguespitters 2d6 S6 -1 re-roll to wound..

**Martel732**

I shoot them first. And that's why my TAC lists frequently have Stalkers. Spam them down with autocannon hits.

**NH Gunsmith**

Martel732 wrote:
I shoot them first. And that's why my TAC lists frequently have Stalkers. Spam them down with autocannon hits.

I just dump Missiles into them haha. I just didn't like the way Stalkers looked, they seem effective in the matchups they sre good. How have they been against non-flying units?

Xirax wrote:

I'm finishing my devs for next game:
3 devs all with cherubs, two 2x ML, 1x PC squads and one with 2x LC and a PC. For a 1500 points adding both an ancient and noviate feels too much. I've found my SG always perform in multi-purpose unit and they have lot better survivability than DC. Now, if I give the banner of sacrifice to the gunline ancient then SG loses some edge. The game I mentioned I had my SG ancient my warlord with the sacred banner running with SG, I kinda liked it. Can I just bring DC for distraction without Lemmy or is he a must, ehst do you think?

Well, yes, you can totally bring Death Company as a distraction. But for that distraction to be effective it has to be intimidating, and force the enemy to deal with it. Something like a small DC squad running around unsupported isn't scary enough to be a proper distraction. They still die like normal Marines, however using Forlorn Fury on them can really hurt your CP cache, and dropping them in without the 3d6 charge often means they will fail and just die without contributing much besides a few Bolter shots (woo-hoo I guess?), and takes that strategem away from you Sanguinary Guard. Lemartes gives them that opportunity to make it in if your just going to try and stick the charge on 2d6, while saving you a CP in the process from most likely trying to reroll one of their charge dice.

Plus, I love Lemartes, in my last 1,500 point game against the new Tau Codex he killed 5 Crisis Suits, a Coldstar Commander, and knocked off around 1/3 of Longstrike's wounds before it was finished off by the Death Company... And all of this was by turn 2. My opponent conceded turn 2 because he only had a single squad of Pathfinders left. You could probably get away with running your Death Company all with just Bolter and Chainsword to save points, and keep Lemartes as the DC's backup and beat stick. That makes them a problem that cannot be ignored by an opponent, and makes for a better distraction.

**Martel732**

That works, too. The Stalker is just a favorite of mine because of its price and ability to wear down nearly any <fly> unit. The Stalker also works very well vs ghost arks, where the krak missile can suffer there.

**Xirax**

In my first turn in that game I had a captain and a lieutenant in the gunline. Both preds with pred autocannon and las sponsons, twin AC and rapid firing bolter, overcharged plasma cannon and a missile launcher at a single bloat-drone and didn't get first blood.. They need a lot of shots and the next turn drones reached my lines and burned chaff..

**Martel732**

Xirax wrote:
In my first turn in that game I had a captain and a lieutenant in the gunline. Both preds with pred autocannon and las sponsons, twin AC and rapid firing bolter, overcharged plasma cannon and a missile launcher at a single bloat-drone and didn't get first blood.. They need a lot of shots and the next turn drones reached my lines and burned chaff..

That's incredibly improbable.

**NH Gunsmith**

Dangit. Make a big response and add it to my last post, now I am way late to the conversation haha. You guys work fast!