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**Slayer-Fan123**

Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blackie wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:

That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.

That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.

Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.

Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.

Yes, the price should be changed as well, I think pods could worth 70 points like rinhos if they were the only way to deep strike marines. What I suggest is not removing options to everything, but clearly the only ability a pod has is to deep strike marines and if they have other cheaper ways to do it, the pods would be useless forever. Pods in 7th were utterly broken for that cost, they needed to be nerfed. Now the increased price cost (twice as expensive as before, not more) and the fact that flamers and meltas could not benefit for deep strike is enough. Allowing several different units to deep strike is a bad concept, IMHO every faction should have max 1 unit that could do that. I'd really like a game in which everything starts on the board, with the excpection maybe of a single unit, but something like 10% or less of the list.

NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.

**skchsan**

Pods weren't broken. It was the formations that gave them for free was.

**Martel732**

And rhinos were still better for gladius.

**Slayer-Fan123**

skchsan wrote:
Pods weren't broken. It was the formations that gave them for free was.

...Which involved everyone taking Razorbacks or Rhinos instead.

**cmspano**

Blackie wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:

That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.

That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.

The handful of people in my area that run pods don't run full pod armies, and they pretty much always have either scouts or razorbacks, or both, on table during deployment.

**Martel732**

I'm considering a pod for Mephy and friends. And that's only a consideration.

**skchsan**

Martel732 wrote:
I'm considering a pod for Mephy and friends. And that's only a consideration.

Yeah, it's really only good for deepstriking named characters that can't take a jump pack.

**Blackie**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.

Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.

Yes, 1-2 armies could counter them, but in the game there are 20ish factions. If you consider "broken" only the 1-2 best lists in the game you may be right, and in fact SM had a list which was even more broken, but when I say broken I consider the 6-7 most effective lists/combinations and pods spam was one of the best lists in the game, just countered by other SM, tau and eldar and only by their most competitive lists.

**Martel732**

I countered them with ba. Remember that every pod passenger was stranddd on foot. It wasn't that strong.

**skchsan**

Blackie wrote:
Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.

Its exactly as you say - it was the formation and grav weapons that were broken, not the pods themselves.

**Martel732**

Grav was only broken against units that were already nigh unusable. Grav was necessary.

**skchsan**

Martel732 wrote:
Grav was only broken against units that were already nigh unusable. Grav was necessary.

True, but it was the only weapon that was both TAC and Specialist gun at the same time - kind of like what assault cannon was but also great against high armor as this was often reflected as +2 Sv.

And for those who believe pods were broken in 7th, pods were just a delivery system for broken formations - I feel like you're thinking pods were broken only because transports were so easy to pop in 7th ed, and drop pods were the only transport that didn't die before being able to deliver its contents reliably. Transports in general were just trash in 7th (of course with few exceptions) - they only served the purpose of keeping your units alive against an alpha strike and not necessarily to ferry units across the battlefield.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.

Skyhammer formation, SW ragnar formation, or just a spam with tons of grav. Units full of meltas could wreck very expensive targets too easily. In 7th with my SW I only had 3 pods but with the wyrdstorm brotherhood I could unleash tons of S7 shots with "ignores cover" wherever I wanted.

Yes, 1-2 armies could counter them, but in the game there are 20ish factions. If you consider "broken" only the 1-2 best lists in the game you may be right, and in fact SM had a list which was even more broken, but when I say broken I consider the 6-7 most effective lists/combinations and pods spam was one of the best lists in the game, just countered by other SM, tau and eldar and only by their most competitive lists.

Neither of those formations were broken. And you're kinda blaming the formations more. In fact, Skyhammer was only good against newer opponents that hadn't learned a thing about null deployment or a bit of screening.

So no, Pods weren't broken in 6th or 7th.

**Marmatag**

More to the point, who cares if they were broken in 6th or 7th? It has no bearing on 8th edition where they are utter garbage.

They could do a lot for pods.

In truth they should expand chapter tactics so key units that are shared across multiple factions function differently.

Maybe BA drop pods land 8" away.
Maybe Ultramarines drop pods give +1 save when units disembark.

There are a million ways to improve them and make the game more flavorful.

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blackie wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:

That's so many units in deep strike though. That's one of my biggest issues with the pod, is that it counts as another unit in reserve and so I need another table unit to make it legal.

That's the main issue with drop pods. Too many imperium units can deep strike for free. If pods were the only way to deepstrike SM stuff they would be viable. Of course they'd need to be able to carry dreads and terminators.

Then nobody ends up Deep Striking because the Pod is still 100 points, or at minimum 10 points per model to Deep Strike with that additional model that isn't hard to killa that has a Storm Bolter.

Removing options doesn't make the bad option good all the sudden.

Yes, the price should be changed as well, I think pods could worth 70 points like rinhos if they were the only way to deep strike marines. What I suggest is not removing options to everything, but clearly the only ability a pod has is to deep strike marines and if they have other cheaper ways to do it, the pods would be useless forever. Pods in 7th were utterly broken for that cost, they needed to be nerfed. Now the increased price cost (twice as expensive as before, not more) and the fact that flamers and meltas could not benefit for deep strike is enough. Allowing several different units to deep strike is a bad concept, IMHO every faction should have max 1 unit that could do that. I'd really like a game in which everything starts on the board, with the excpection maybe of a single unit, but something like 10% or less of the list.

NO, Pods in 7th were not broken. Name a single broken instance.

I considered it pretty broken when IG would take space marine allies with fast attack drop pods and then load them with command squads for 4 ignore cover meltas hitting on 3+. They fixed that nonsense though.

**Martel732**

You had to load non-marines in the pods to break them. Telling.

**Xenomancers**

This might be silly but has anyone ever tried loading 10 PA heros into a drop pod and go on a close combat rampage?

**Marmatag**

Xenomancers wrote:
This might be silly but has anyone ever tried loading 10 PA heros into a drop pod and go on a close combat rampage?

No because:

1. Screens
2. 9" failed charges
3. Cost
4. Overwatch
5. Low attacks

You'd be spending, what, like 800 points to get 4 captains into combat? And the savings is minimal, considering a jump pack is 1/4th of a pod and they can all take packs. So you only save 80 points but lose out on mobility and the ability to deploy them individually all over the map.

Meanwhile, Alpha Legion spends that much and gets like 400 attacks guaranteed turn 1.

**fraser1191**

Remove the cost and just make them cost CP
On top of that give all named Chapter masters +2 CP like Calgar, and I dunno the drop pod will cost 2 CP?

**Lance845**

Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

**Insectum7**

Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

Charge Devilgaunts that shoot 90 times.

**JNAProductions**

15 hits. 7.5 wounds against T4. 2.5 wounds against a 3+.

That's, uh... Technically something.

**Lance845**

Insectum7 wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

Charge Devilgaunts that shoot 90 times.

JNAProductions wrote:15 hits. 7.5 wounds against T4. 2.5 wounds against a 3+.

That's, uh... Technically something.

Yup. 90 shots from a 30 devilgaunt blob SOUNDS intimidating. But you know what? Mathed out... Worth the risk.

Also, this is assuming a 30 devilgaunt blob was sitting around not being shot in your shooting phase. Every 1 gaunt dead (very easy to do) is 3 less shots and a drastic reduction in end effectivness.

**Insectum7**

Lance845 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

Charge Devilgaunts that shoot 90 times.

JNAProductions wrote:15 hits. 7.5 wounds against T4. 2.5 wounds against a 3+.

That's, uh... Technically something.

Yup. 90 shots from a 30 devilgaunt blob SOUNDS intimidating. But you know what? Mathed out... Worth the risk.

Also, this is assuming a 30 devilgaunt blob was sitting around not being shot in your shooting phase. Every 1 gaunt dead (very easy to do) is 3 less shots and a drastic reduction in end effectivness.

That'll kill 4-5 genestealers, 3-4 scorpions, and even if it's still T4 3+ we could be talking about Vanguard or some other more expensive model. Or for yucks, guardsmen, who will lose 7-8 models. Hormagaunts 8-9. It's enough to consider sending something else in to soak it, especially if you're dealing with small squads or remnants.

Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Take Bloodletters as an example; those 7-8 lost models could be the difference between getting that +1 to hit or not.

**Martel732**

Guardsmen losing 7-8 means nothing though, pointswise.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen losing 7-8 means nothing though, pointswise.

If "points earned" is your only metric you're a lousy general.

**Martel732**

That's not my point and you know it.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
That's not my point and you know it.

I honestly don't.

**JNAProductions**

If you charge a full squad of guardsmen into 30 Devilguants, 2-3 will live. Then, you charge in Bullgryns, who now no longer have to fear overwatch.

Or, hell, you charge the Gryns in first. 90 shots is 7.5 hits is 2.5 wounds is not even one dead Ogryn or Bullgryn.

I'll agree that, on the off chance you're charging a weakened Infantry squad into an untouched Devilgaunt squad, it matters. But, without special circumstances (such as D-Scythe Wraithguard) overwatch just doesn't mean much.