Local Tournament - No Forgeworld Units

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**Martel732**

The funny part is I'm one of the few players there who faced 5th ed FW units, but I'm not the one pulling for the ban. Heresay and tradition are very powerful.

**Leo_the_Rat**

To the OP- if you don't understand why the TO banned FW just ask him. Maybe he's allergic to resin or maybe he's just being obtuse but in any event you'll have his reason. If you disagree with it (even in principle) then maybe you can discuss it with him and persuade him to lift the ban or at least not implement it at his next event.

To everyone else- vote with your wallets. If you don't agree with the ban then don't go to the event (or just run your own event). You could also talk to those TOs and follow the above advice. If the TO doesn't move from his position then find someone else to run events or do it yourselves.

**lliu**

Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

**JNAProductions**

lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

**lliu**

JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Yeah. So? Does that mean we ban the entire game? No. When there are messes there are messes, but forgeworld is not the source of most of those problems anymore.

**Xenomancers**

JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

**Marmatag**

The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

Can you cite an example of your claim? One thing from FW that is strictly better than the other? The only thing I can think of is the Leman Russ Annihilator being better than the Vanquisher, but that has more to do with the Vanquisher being bupkis than the Annihilator being godly.

**Fafnir**

Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

Doubly so now that Primaris Psykers and Spiritseers saw no real change of importance.

**HuskyWarhammer**

Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

**WindstormSCR**

ITT: people with no actual experience of forge world units and how mediocre 99% of them are screaming and crying because they feel violated for having to put up with someone else's choice of toy soldiers.

**chimeara**

Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

One of my local TO's still bans FW because of the Fire Raptors. That's pretty much it. He says there are other "issues" as well but won't glean that information.

**Karhedron**

FW is not used for matched play or tournaments in my area. Basically it is only used for friendly games with your opponent's consent, not pick-up games. I won't go into whether that is right or wrong but to answer the OP, banning FW is not that uncommon.

**MarsNZ**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

**Xenomancers**

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

**Vaktathi**

MarsNZ wrote:
Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

Tournaments typically arent free, if the TO is running an event someone paid to enter, then I dont see it as unreasonable at all that they should be familiar with the complete rules of the game.

Thats not being bratty, unreasonable, or stamping feet. At that point the player has paid for something, and if the TO cant deliver, the event needs a new TO.

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this. In the end it's easy to tell why - they have a ton of forge world stuff.

Can you cite an example of your claim? One thing from FW that is strictly better than the other? The only thing I can think of is the Leman Russ Annihilator being better than the Vanquisher, but that has more to do with the Vanquisher being bupkis than the Annihilator being godly.

Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

**Adeptus Doritos**

MarsNZ wrote:
Completely unreasonable stance on a voluntary position which amounts to "Do it how I like it or never do it at all". A common attitude among bratty children.

Incorrect. Forge World is part of the game, and rather common. If you're not competent enough to look at a book that someone brought, or do the research yourself- you should not be a TO. Or at least, you'll earn a reputation as an incompetent one.

MarsNZ wrote:
I guess it's easy to stamp your feet when the person providing an unpaid service doesn't meet your standards, like when mum buys regular milk instead of chocolate.

Tournaments are free where you're from?

I guess it's easy to show your ass in a forum thread about tournaments when it becomes blatantly clear you've never been in a real one.

**Audustum**

Karhedron wrote:
FW is not used for matched play or tournaments in my area. Basically it is only used for friendly games with your opponent's consent, not pick-up games. I won't go into whether that is right or wrong but to answer the OP, banning FW is not that uncommon.

I would say it's uncommon in the tournament circuit. The biggest tournament leagues in the U.S. allow Forgeworld.

I'm not sure anyone has the stats or knowledge to answer on a FLGS level though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimeara wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
The most broken units in the game - Malefic Lords, Big Bird - were in desperate need of an adjustment. Not sure a FW ban makes sense after chapter approved.

One of my local TO's still bans FW because of the Fire Raptors. That's pretty much it. He says there are other "issues" as well but won't glean that information.

I mean if hiw issue is with Fire Raptors than he should just ban those. No sense telling Krieg and Renegades to take a hike because of a unit they can't even use.

**HuskyWarhammer**

Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

Nobody is stalking you, nobody is making attacks against anything except objectively silly ideas you promote. Trust me, I don't have that kind of spare time. Neither do any of the other people you've accused of also being me and stalking you. Turns out that when you post a lot, people reply...especially when you post a lot of dismissively phrased comments like "I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this" that are far from reality.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Audustum wrote:
I'm not sure anyone has the stats or knowledge to answer on a FLGS level though.

On the FLGS level, nearly all of them that I've been to allow it. Some didn't a LONG time ago, but now most don't mind. Earlier in the year a TO at a FLGS said 'no Forge World' and the Shop Owner told him he could host his tournament elsewhere. Most of the FLGS stores that I've been to in the last few years have been owned by actual 40k Gamers that actually think the models are cool.

**kombatwombat**

Xenomancers wrote:Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

Relative to a base Predator, the base Sicaran is a little undercosted, yes. But a 200ish point tank being like 15-20pts or something too cheap isn’t exactly meta-definingly OP, particularly when it doesn’t synergise particularly well with any Stratagems and is soft-limited in spammability by the Relic rule.

I’ll grant you the Fire Raptor is OP post-Chapter Approved. That thing did not need a points drop. But can you name any others post-CA? The assertion that ForgeWorld is OP seems pretty shaky when out of their hundreds of units they have one unit identified as solidly OP and one sorta-maybe-yeah-ok-a-bit. For the most part, FW is unbalanced in that it is firmly underpowered. My go-to example is one you should be comfortable with - compare the Space Marine superheavies with the Guard Codex superheavies.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Most people familiar with power-gaming forum talk could reel off lists of OP units in GW Codexes/Indexes, yet I dare say very few FW units similarly OP. You’re correct that sheer quantity means GW will have more OP units than FW, but are you contending that FW has proportionally more OP units than GW?

**JNAProductions**

kombatwombat wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:Before CA I could have given you a lot of examples. One thing is for sure though - you are going to see a lot of sicarians and fire-raptors on the table after CA (which brings us back to 7th eddition marines basically) It's only a matter of time until these things are in every tournament list. Makes sense.

Relative to a base Predator, the base Sicaran is a little undercosted, yes. But a 200ish point tank being like 15-20pts or something too cheap isn’t exactly meta-definingly OP, particularly when it doesn’t synergise particularly well with any Stratagems and is soft-limited in spammability by the Relic rule.

I’ll grant you the Fire Raptor is OP post-Chapter Approved. That thing did not need a points drop. But can you name any others post-CA? The assertion that ForgeWorld is OP seems pretty shaky when out of their hundreds of units they have one unit identified as solidly OP and one sorta-maybe-yeah-ok-a-bit. For the most part, FW is unbalanced in that it is firmly underpowered. My go-to example is one you should be comfortable with - compare the Space Marine superheavies with the Guard Codex superheavies.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

Most people familiar with power-gaming forum talk could reel off lists of OP units in GW Codexes/Indexes, yet I dare say very few FW units similarly OP. You’re correct that sheer quantity means GW will have more OP units than FW, but are you contending that FW has proportionally more OP units than GW?[/quote

Of course not. I'm on the side that it's foolish to ban FW.

**Scott-S6**

Voss wrote:
Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

Where do you think the Forgeworld rules are? They're right there in the Index.

**Crazyterran**

And here i thought you needed a thousand dollar cipher in order to unravel the arcane seals that bind Forge World to the plane of Briton.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Crazyterran wrote:
And here i thought you needed a thousand dollar cipher in order to unravel the arcane seals that bind Forge World to the plane of Briton.

You know what's crazy? I used to have difficulty buying from their online store- something about my bank rejecting the purchase through their online store.

I put like three bucks into Skype. Just to be sure.

The Forge World Website has a phone number. I put that into Skype.

I heard a ringa-linga-ding.

A nice man with a British accent answered.

I told him what I was doing and the problem. He processed my order from me.

I didn't even have to put on pants or brush my teeth, it was pretty easy.

**Crazyterran**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
And here i thought you needed a thousand dollar cipher in order to unravel the arcane seals that bind Forge World to the plane of Briton.

You know what's crazy? I used to have difficulty buying from their online store- something about my bank rejecting the purchase through their online store.

I put like three bucks into Skype. Just to be sure.

The Forge World Website has a phone number. I put that into Skype.

I heard a ringa-linga-ding.

A nice man with a British accent answered.

I told him what I was doing and the problem. He processed my order from me.

I didn't even have to put on pants or brush my teeth, it was pretty easy.

By god! No pants or teeth brushing!?

Sky-pe? Is this some sort of daemon summoning book!?

Next you'll tell me we have large, pad like devices that are now fairly cheap, and can show Forge Worlds rules in an easily readable format!

**Xenomancers**

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

Nobody is stalking you, nobody is making attacks against anything except objectively silly ideas you promote. Trust me, I don't have that kind of spare time. Neither do any of the other people you've accused of also being me and stalking you. Turns out that when you post a lot, people reply...especially when you post a lot of dismissively phrased comments like "I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this" that are far from reality.

This forge world topic is reoccurring since I can remember. FW having many options that are just flat out better than their GW equivalent was exceptionally common in 5th-7th and it's even common now in 8th(even after CA). It is a perfectly valid reason for banning forge world from a tournament - and a TO technically doesn't even need a reason. If you can't handle that - don't go to the tournament. There is no reason to argue about it...no laws of ethics are being broken. If that's far from reality - then I'm happy to live in lala land.

**Jorim**

Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

Nobody is stalking you, nobody is making attacks against anything except objectively silly ideas you promote. Trust me, I don't have that kind of spare time. Neither do any of the other people you've accused of also being me and stalking you. Turns out that when you post a lot, people reply...especially when you post a lot of dismissively phrased comments like "I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this" that are far from reality.

This forge world topic is reoccurring since I can remember. FW having many options that are just flat out better than their GW equivalent was exceptionally common in 5th-7th and it's even common now in 8th(even after CA). It is a perfectly valid reason for banning forge world from a tournament - and a TO technically doesn't even need a reason. If you can't handle that - don't go to the tournament. There is no reason to argue about it...no laws of ethics are being broken. If that's far from reality - then I'm happy to live in lala land.

It would be very nice if you could add examples to your argument, as in multiple fw options that are better than the gw version. For added points the fw option needs to be op/undercosted because otherwise it is not realy a problem with fw and more with the fact that the gw one might be to bad.

**Xenomancers**

Jorim wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
lliu wrote:
Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

And since when have GW rules been proofread, well balanced, and overall not a “rush job”? There are more GW units that are unbalanced than Forgworld.

Some of that is just quantity. There's more GW units than there are FW units, so of COURSE there's going to be more bad rules in there.

That is only true of some armies. FW probably more than doubles the number of units imperial armies can take. Plus - many of those are just better versions of imperial stuff. I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this..

That's pretty rich coming from the person who melodramatically posts nonstop about how every army but SM are OP, then doubles down for pages and pages trying to reinforce that narrative.

So when you claimed to ignore me. That was just what? A load of gak? stop stalking me and making personal attacks please.

Plus at least state my position correctly. Space marines are a really bad army - there is plenty of other really bad armies too.

Nobody is stalking you, nobody is making attacks against anything except objectively silly ideas you promote. Trust me, I don't have that kind of spare time. Neither do any of the other people you've accused of also being me and stalking you. Turns out that when you post a lot, people reply...especially when you post a lot of dismissively phrased comments like "I find it hilarious that people actually argue against this" that are far from reality.

This forge world topic is reoccurring since I can remember. FW having many options that are just flat out better than their GW equivalent was exceptionally common in 5th-7th and it's even common now in 8th(even after CA). It is a perfectly valid reason for banning forge world from a tournament - and a TO technically doesn't even need a reason. If you can't handle that - don't go to the tournament. There is no reason to argue about it...no laws of ethics are being broken. If that's far from reality - then I'm happy to live in lala land.

It would be very nice if you could add examples to your argument, as in multiple fw options that are better than the gw version. For added points the fw option needs to be op/undercosted because otherwise it is not realy a problem with fw and more with the fact that the gw one might be to bad.

For space marines. Levithan dreads are far superior to space marine dreads. Heck even mortis dreads are superior to space marine codex dreads. And as superior I mean - they perform better for their points. Even the new Redemptor Dread is a joke compared to a Leviathan.
Fire raptors - same sotry
Sicrians - same story
cheap fast attack gun turrets - who needs devastators I can just spam heavy bolter sentry turrets in fast attack.
Many of the LR varients put the god-hammer pattern to shame (because they are just god hammers with invo saves and additional weapons for barely any point increase)

Just take a look at the Space marine tactics form. Every other page is people saying "I think we need to use forge world to compete"