Forgeworld 2019 News & Rumours-BA Dawnbreakers Pg 163

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**Kanluwen**

I wonder if this is a sign that GW is finally going to be releasing Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist upgrade sprues in plastic?

**Crimson**

Kanluwen wrote:
I wonder if this is a sign that GW is finally going to be releasing Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist upgrade sprues in plastic?

For Primaris Marines, maybe.

**Crazyterran**

According to someone who says he has sources on b&c, essentially FW got denied a warehouse size increase, so now they have to dump the nice but not necessary stuff.

Torsos for marines are typically mostly hidden, for example, so can afford to be cut. More popular legions are keeping their helmets, others...

I picked some stuff up to future proof my marines, since my Battle Company was done in mostly Praetorian plate and it would feel wrong to throw in normal mk4 chests with the praet ones.

**Omega-soul**

zedmeister wrote:
Fireball wrote:
Why are they stopping to sell HH upgrades? I do not understand this ...

There was an (unverified) rumour that was bounced around that says Forgeworld had requested an increase in warehouse space which was denied. So, if true, they're trimming the slow sellers from their lines. Lets face it, these aren't necessary to collect 30k, especially with the transfers. They're nice to haves. Though, looking at posts on a few other forums, you'd think Forgeworld just "last chance to buy'd" the Spartan!

That's make absolutely ZERO sense.
First of all - 30k is about legions and upgrade packs for each legion is a butter (where bread is new plastic bodies from BaC and BoP)
Second - why would you want to expel thing that have at least some kind of demand while there is a ton of... old and unnecessary products to say the least
Third - upgrade packs to save some space? really? Unless they made millions of them - upgrade packs is one of the smallest item (with the most efficient volume-to-price ratio). And obviously the transfers are the real space saver. I imagine how much space transfers will save.

I see only one really bad possible reason - if they shut down the whole Heresy line. And that is somewhere about 0.0000001 chance to happen. It's like making a dinner from chiken, producing a golden eggs (especially when they plan to make new Heresy books)

The whole other reasons is that they want to replace it with something new, or different (but with similar role)
And there can be speculations - whether they want to make new forms/casts as they already did with Vehicle doors , or they want to rearrange the whole kits, repack with other items, or make a new and standart line.

**tneva82**

Keeping virtually non selling items on production costs money so it makes sense. Bigger profits. And with plastic marines how much mk2 parts you think they sell? Note most lcb's are mk2

**Annirak**

tneva82 wrote:
Annirak wrote:
This is really disappointing... I'm just starting a Salamanders army, and I was planning to use FW pads on every. single. model and torso upgrades on all sergeants. I even got a sprue of mkiii marines to make sure that the legs and arms are in keeping with the torsos.

I only have 20 of them, but if they're going away, I'm going to have to rethink things....

Edit: evidently, the mkii shoulder pads are the only ones being discontinued. Mkiii and mkiv are safe for now. The loss of torsos is a big deal for me, though. I might have to pick up another pack long before I was ready to do so.

People as he noted note that it's not every single upgrade kit going. Specifically MKII are the ones really going away. MKIV are fairly safe(sons of horus lost one of the 2 they had but still has the primary one). Some MKIII kits are also going.

It's not "no more shoulder pads at all".

I'm hoping that MKiii shoulder pads stick around too. I would expect MKiv and MKiii it to sell better than MKii because there are plastic kits for MKiii and MKiv but not for MKii. Also, MKiv shoulders work reasonably well with MKv, MKvi, and MKviii armour as well.

Indomitus pattern terminator pads also appear safe for now.

**scottmmmm**

I'd been hoping they'd do another HH boxed game with MkII armour for my White Scars.

Getting rid of the MkII upgrade sets suggests that might not be happening :(

**zedmeister**

scottmmmm wrote:
I'd been hoping they'd do another HH boxed game with MkII armour for my White Scars.

Getting rid of the MkII upgrade sets suggests that might not be happening :(

I highly doubt we'll see another Horus Heresy plastic box. At least, not in the next few years. Next two years will probably see Forgeworld releasing Adeptus Titanicus and Battlefleet Gothic as well as continued support for Blood Bowl and Necromunda. I can't see them dedicating time to producing another Heresy boxed set.

**Crimson**

zedmeister wrote:
scottmmmm wrote:
I'd been hoping they'd do another HH boxed game with MkII armour for my White Scars.

Getting rid of the MkII upgrade sets suggests that might not be happening :(

I highly doubt we'll see another Horus Heresy plastic box. At least, not in the next few years. Next two years will probably see Forgeworld releasing Adeptus Titanicus and Battlefleet Gothic as well as continued support for Blood Bowl and Necromunda. I can't see them dedicating time to producing another Heresy boxed set.

Which is actually a good thing. It makes much more sense for Forgeworld to concentrate their efforts on producing something actually new, rather than a slightly different version of a thing main GW already makes. Frankly, whole HH is pretty pointless. You can already play Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40K.

**Fireball**

So everything involving torsos is going away ... also some MkII Shoulder Pads ... helmets and most pads stay so thats all right I guess

**Crimson**

Fireball wrote:
So everything involving torsos is going away ... also some MkII Shoulder Pads ... helmets and most pads stay so thats all right I guess

Helmets and Shoulderpads stay... So the bits that are compatible with Primaris Marines!

**Formosa**

Omega-soul wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
Fireball wrote:
Why are they stopping to sell HH upgrades? I do not understand this ...

There was an (unverified) rumour that was bounced around that says Forgeworld had requested an increase in warehouse space which was denied. So, if true, they're trimming the slow sellers from their lines. Lets face it, these aren't necessary to collect 30k, especially with the transfers. They're nice to haves. Though, looking at posts on a few other forums, you'd think Forgeworld just "last chance to buy'd" the Spartan!

That's make absolutely ZERO sense.
First of all - 30k is about legions and upgrade packs for each legion is a butter (where bread is new plastic bodies from BaC and BoP)
Second - why would you want to expel thing that have at least some kind of demand while there is a ton of... old and unnecessary products to say the least
Third - upgrade packs to save some space? really? Unless they made millions of them - upgrade packs is one of the smallest item (with the most efficient volume-to-price ratio). And obviously the transfers are the real space saver. I imagine how much space transfers will save.

I see only one really bad possible reason - if they shut down the whole Heresy line. And that is somewhere about 0.0000001 chance to happen. It's like making a dinner from chiken, producing a golden eggs (especially when they plan to make new Heresy books)

The whole other reasons is that they want to replace it with something new, or different (but with similar role)
And there can be speculations - whether they want to make new forms/casts as they already did with Vehicle doors , or they want to rearrange the whole kits, repack with other items, or make a new and standart line.

Your correct, myself and EVERY other heresy player in my area buy the legion upgrade packs, they make the legions look very different from each other and a black dark angel is very noticeably different from a black iron hand because of this, if they don’t bring them back in some manner then I will be forced to buy them “elsewhere”

**Crazyterran**

The UM invictarii leaving doesn’t mean a unit is going away, as the Suzerain kit is still a thing.

I was hoping to see Ultramarines cataphractii pads for my fulmentari but oh well.

**Omega-soul**

Fireball wrote:
So everything involving torsos is going away ... also some MkII Shoulder Pads ... helmets and most pads stay so thats all right I guess

Helmets too. At least Ultramarines Invictariesthere.
In e-mail promotion there is also listed white scars and thousand sons helmets.

I think it's incorrect to make assumption based on armour patterns - there is a different kit made in different years for different marks of armour.

And some of them are quite new (the space wolf I think is the most recent a year and a half old I think).

This makes me think about more technical issues.
Maybe even the copyrights problems with sculptors, or mould damage or something similar.

**zedmeister**

Some posts from M_R_Parker of B&C on what's happening:

There's no huge rush at the moment if you're looking to buy online - they have plenty of stock at the moment and they're guaranteeing orders that come through regardless. You won't suddenly see certain upgrade packs disappear as they sell out, which is a relief. Secondly, they're not sure how long these are going to be on the site before but the timeframe is estimated to be "two weekends", based off the Elysian LCTB, so you should have this weekend, next week and the following weekend to place orders.

As to why, apparently MkII is apparently not great for the moulds, but primarily this looks like a popularity thing. got the standard response of "There's only so much space for storage / moulds, and every now and again some of the less popular lines have to be removed. They may get reintroduced later, or as part of something different, but for the moment they have to go to make space for new lines". They do seem to be focussing on the MkII pads, torsos, and Cataphractii pads.

This is more of an interesting one I think. I think they fell into the "all or nothing" camp, with "nothing" being the easier option than releasing 12 additional Cataphractii sets and a further 18 Tartaros sets.
The semi-official line was that when the 6 sets were released there were completed designs for the other 12 legions that didn't make the final grade. Pressures on the sculpting team meant that they were left on the shelf and weren't updated with the given feedback, so we were left with only those six sets. A shame really, because they were awesome!

**gorgon**

Omega-soul wrote:
That's make absolutely ZERO sense.
First of all - 30k is about legions and upgrade packs for each legion is a butter (where bread is new plastic bodies from BaC and BoP)
Second - why would you want to expel thing that have at least some kind of demand while there is a ton of... old and unnecessary products to say the least
Third - upgrade packs to save some space? really? Unless they made millions of them - upgrade packs is one of the smallest item (with the most efficient volume-to-price ratio). And obviously the transfers are the real space saver. I imagine how much space transfers will save.

I see only one really bad possible reason - if they shut down the whole Heresy line. And that is somewhere about 0.0000001 chance to happen. It's like making a dinner from chiken, producing a golden eggs (especially when they plan to make new Heresy books)

The whole other reasons is that they want to replace it with something new, or different (but with similar role)
And there can be speculations - whether they want to make new forms/casts as they already did with Vehicle doors , or they want to rearrange the whole kits, repack with other items, or make a new and standart line.

To me, FW axing these particular items implies that 1) China and 3D printers continue to impact their sales, and 2) people aren't starting HH armies like they were a couple years ago.

There are a lot of Heresy fans whistling past the graveyard on this IMO, but 30K isn't growing like it did following the release of the Calth and Prospero boxed sets. I hazard to guess that current FW HH sales are mostly from folks with existing 30K armies (or interested in using the kits in 40K), and people with 30K armies are probably mostly set for their basic infantry and aren't as much in need of upgrade packs.

HH once seemed like a rapidly growing, third 'core game' in the making. But it seems fairly clear that it's pulling back to become more of a niche product again while the specialist games become the growth driver.

Regarding the black books...let's see how many more we get, and when. Malevolence will happen, although a late 2018 target probably means early 2019 in FW time. And they'll probably make an effort to get DA their full rules, but does that happen in 2020? 2021?

**DaemonJellybaby**

GW are apparently cancelling the plastic HH models.

**Desaxe**

After some consideration I thin that HH players (like me

) have no reason to panic

Mk. III and Mk. IV shoulder pads won't leave the calatogue, vehicles and many other essential models also.

Torsos may be reshaped or completely vanish, but being honest - in 2500 pts army I have 5-10 models with torsos. On marines with bolters they simply aren't visible.

Mk.II will not have plastic set similar to BaC or BoP so their upgrade is too expensive - Mk. II squad with shoulder pads upgrades has almost the same price as two plastic Mk.IV squads with equal upgrades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
GW are apparently cancelling the plastic HH models.

well - GW/FW ins't removing Mk.III and Mk.IV upgrades so I can't agree

They rather cancel Mk.II as common type of armour, leaving mk.II only as a some kind of artefact

**zedmeister**

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
GW are apparently cancelling the plastic HH models.

Citation needed

**Lum**

Ugh. I honestly wanted to save some money this may, but I really like the FW Salamander Torsi. I might have to order the Salamander upgrade pack. The helmets are quite fancy as well.
Ah well. Whatever can you do :p

**BaconCatBug**

I know of a few people who are going to profit greatly from this. GW is literally throwing money away.

**Vorian**

BaconCatBug wrote:
I know of a few people who are going to profit greatly from this. GW is literally throwing money away.

You would have to assume they have a better understanding of how much these items sell than we, the random customer do.

I'm still kicking myself that I picked up the Mk IV SW pads by mistake rather than the MK II!

**Midnightdeathblade**

Crimson wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
scottmmmm wrote:
I'd been hoping they'd do another HH boxed game with MkII armour for my White Scars.

Getting rid of the MkII upgrade sets suggests that might not be happening :(

I highly doubt we'll see another Horus Heresy plastic box. At least, not in the next few years. Next two years will probably see Forgeworld releasing Adeptus Titanicus and Battlefleet Gothic as well as continued support for Blood Bowl and Necromunda. I can't see them dedicating time to producing another Heresy boxed set.

Which is actually a good thing. It makes much more sense for Forgeworld to concentrate their efforts on producing something actually new, rather than a slightly different version of a thing main GW already makes. Frankly, whole HH is pretty pointless. You can already play Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40K.

Have you played a game of Horus Heresy? Bro, just no. lmao. In no way is it pointless, otherwise it wouldnt be the most popular thing forgeworld produces.

**Omega-soul**

gorgon wrote:

To me, FW axing these particular items implies that 1) China and 3D printers continue to impact their sales, and 2) people aren't starting HH armies like they were a couple years ago.

There are a lot of Heresy fans whistling past the graveyard on this IMO, but 30K isn't growing like it did following the release of the Calth and Prospero boxed sets. I hazard to guess that current FW HH sales are mostly from folks with existing 30K armies (or interested in using the kits in 40K), and people with 30K armies are probably mostly set for their basic infantry and aren't as much in need of upgrade packs.

HH once seemed like a rapidly growing, third 'core game' in the making. But it seems fairly clear that it's pulling back to become more of a niche product again while the specialist games become the growth driver.

Regarding the black books...let's see how many more we get, and when. Malevolence will happen, although a late 2018 target probably means early 2019 in FW time. And they'll probably make an effort to get DA their full rules, but does that happen in 2020? 2021?

And there is a good reason for that. Several reasons actually.
1) First and foremost - stagnation of 40k in period of 2013-2015
2) Overall hype with plastic heresy - that was huge boost as so many players can't stand resin models
3) 40k improvement in 2017 and blast with primaris marines
4) Passing of Alan Bligh and divided Forge world team for specialist games projects

And as result - Forgeworld stock with all projects.
We have saying "Forge the iron while it's hot" - and Forge-world lost their momentum.
30k indeed could be the 3rd core game. But I think Citadel/GW saw that as unnecessary competition.

**pm713**

Is there any source for "so many players can't stand resin"?

**BrookM**

I think it may be a case of "People love resin, just not when it's from Forge World."

**gorgon**

pm713 wrote:
Is there any source for "so many players can't stand resin"?

"Many players can't stomach FW resin prices for infantry" would probably have been a better way to put it.

The prices for 20-man tactical squads in resin can get a little eye-watering.

But I agree with him that a lot of momentum for 30K has been lost. The edition update was a key factor here too. Clearly there's still demand -- I recently posted some Mk.3 sprues on eBay, and they sold very quickly. HH may become a niche, but will maintain a solid, devoted niche. At the same time, I think it's whistling past the graveyard to see such core items like these go out of print and think that 30K is humming along better than ever.

A thought I've had since the launch of 8th is that with the indexes allowing so many 30K models in 40K gaming, FW also doesn't need HH as much anymore to push those kits.

**bogalubov**

In my mind a big part of GW rebuilding its image and bringing players back is the improved communication about the direction of the game. This move to dump 30k items does not have any corresponding announcement. Without any messaging to drive the conversation themselves, GW leaves it to the community to fill the discussion space. It doesn't take long for any online community to run to roof's edge and declare the world is ending.

As an Iron Warrior player, this doesn't impact me at all. The IW bits are awful. The transfers are way better for my purposes. However, I don't understand why FW couldn't start a more of a "print on demand" service for bits. Looking around, there are plenty of 3rd party resin manufactures that have introduced great online systems for ordering customized resin orders where you pick the head, torso, arm, leg options to create unique products. If these smaller entities can do that, I'm not sure why FW can't. Then of course there are the 3D printers and re-casters. They don't seem to have a problem not sitting on stock and making items as needed and I think some of them probably are moving as much product for heresy as FW. GW might be on the cutting edge of plastic model manufacture, but FW is woefully behind the curve for resin.

**Crimson**

Midnightdeathblade wrote:

Have you played a game of Horus Heresy? Bro, just no. lmao. In no way is it pointless, otherwise it wouldnt be the most popular thing forgeworld produces.

It obviously cannot be that popular, as FW just discontinued a huge chunk of HH stuff. The whole game could be condensed into a supplement for Space Marine codex which contains the 30K options.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Crimson wrote:
Midnightdeathblade wrote:

Have you played a game of Horus Heresy? Bro, just no. lmao. In no way is it pointless, otherwise it wouldnt be the most popular thing forgeworld produces.

It obviously cannot be that popular, as FW just discontinued a huge chunk of HH stuff. The whole game could be condensed into a supplement for Space Marine codex which contains the 30K options.

Not popular? It became so popular that GW made two box sets for it. That speaks volumes.

This recent shift could be for any number of reasons. Certainly doesn't seem to be anything doing with the games popularity, though. I mean, just look at the doors! Alllllllllll the doors!