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 Sqorgar wrote:
Stuff

Yes, yes Zarathustra has come down from the mountain to tell us the blindingly obvious and the incomprehensible. Stuff costs us more than it did to make and a discounted box is too expensive. Dakka has reached peak pauper and it's all GW's fault. I can't wait to see the stories woven for the next release. It's like a ttg version of the four Yorkshiremen sketch.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I could understand it if all the models were new, but half the box is some truly decrepit early 00's kits with just the new Tyrant and the slightly younger artillery rhinox being up to modern standards.

And on top of that they put 2 leadbelchers instead of the full box of 4.

Like. Really GW? Why are you so petty?

They very well might have reduced the unit sizes for the book, as they don't tend to give you understrength units with these boxes.

As per previous posters, the leadbelcher sprue contains 4 sets of leadbelcher arms.
So the box should be able to make up to 4, regardless of how GW advertises it (as those arms fit the basic Ogre bodies used in all the plastic infantry kits).

That's cool and all, but Galas is complaining about there only being 2 Leadbelchers.

I don't know the sprues. Is there an arm and head sprue and then a couple of sprues with bodies repeated? Because if so, likely what's happened is similar to how they've done Primaris units for these big boxes: they give you the minimum size for a unit.

Ogre sprues are:
Basic ogres, 2 bodies, various arms and one-handed weapons
Bull sprue: various upgrades of champions, etc.
Leadbelcher sprue: 4 sets of arms with cannons, head options, etc.

The Ogre bulls kit is already rebranded with AoS and 6 ogres. So I guess we buy them still in increments of 3.
Leadbelcher kit is 4 bodies, matching the 4 sets of arms. Leadbelcher are at the moment also bought in increments of 3.
We kinda know Ironguts are becoming increments of 4, because of the Warscroll Cards pick which has 1 banner per 4 and 1 bellower per 4. Matching the box size and the Ironguts sprue.

Either the Leadbelcher are going to be 2/4/6 ogres or the set leaves us with an understrength unit.

Faction Focus: Ossiarch Bonereapers on Warhammer Community:

So here’s a neat thing – any Ossiarch Bonereapers army can include Nagash and Arkhan, not as allies but as fully-fledged commanders of your force! While Ossiarch Bonereapers are not Summonable units, they can still be healed and restored to life by these sinister overlords of death. We’d recommend taking Arkhan if you’re looking to make the most of your hero phase (not to mention giving yourself access to Curse of Years) and Nagash if you’re looking to build an elite force with a cadre of Immortis Guard to keep the Great Necromancer safe.

JSG wrote:
Yes, yes Zarathustra has come down from the mountain to tell us the blindingly obvious and the incomprehensible. Stuff costs us more than it did to make and a discounted box is too expensive. Dakka has reached peak pauper and it's all GW's fault. I can't wait to see the stories woven for the next release. It's like a ttg version of the four Yorkshiremen sketch.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not complaining that GW is expensive. I'm saying that GW is using manipulative tricks in order to obfuscate the true value of their product, artificially creating demand. It's no different than the stuff that mobile free to play games or stuff like Fortnite use to keep people addicted and shelling out money.

Take Fortnite, for example. Previously, in most games, skins were a few bucks. $5 at most. Then Fortnite comes along and starts charging $20 for skins. That's outrageous! How do they get away with that? Well, they do a number of marketplace manipulations. First, they hide the true cost of their product. They hide the price behind V-bucks, fake money that is similar to USD. But they give away free V-bucks all the time, by accomplishing challenges in Fortnite's Save the World mode, or simply by giving out bonus V-bucks when you buy bundles of currency. Occasionally, they bundle products together where they give you two things you want and one thing you don't want at a discount, so you feel like you are paying less when you are actually paying more. The end result is that the value of these skins is never actually $20. It's less than $20, but by some hazy nebulous amount.

Except when FOMO kicks in. They rotate the skins for sale every 24 hours, and it can be months before that skin comes back for sale (some skins never do). So you have 24 hours to buy this skin, but you don't have bonus V-bucks available - so people pay the full $20. For a skin. Not because the skin is actually worth $20, but because they have no idea how much the skin is actually worth. The price tag is $20, but they rarely pay the full $20 - but despite the value being less than $20 normally, the sticker being $20 means that they perceive the value as being closer to $20 than they would normally pay. And then, when artificial scarcity is introduced, people end up paying $20 on the mistaken belief that they have been getting a deal so far, when nobody in their right mind would pay $20 for a skin in any other circumstance.

That's how GW is operating. They are manipulating people into thinking the value of their goods is considerably higher than it would be in the fair marketplace. If GW printed enough copies of Looncurse, it would still be sitting on shelves somewhere because the number of people who want Looncurse is a fixed amount - an amount that I'm positive GW has accurate numbers for. But when it sells out during the preorder period, the FOMO buyers ("I might want it someday, better get it just in case") and scalpers come in to artificially drive up sales. By only announcing new products a week in advance, it prevents people from getting an accurate view of what they are spending. You end up with people buying an expensive set that they MIGHT want (FOMO) only to find out that the next week is a new expensive set that DO want. And that gets them stuck in a perpetual hype loop, looking forward to next week's pre-orders when this week's release hasn't even arrived yet. I'm willing to bet that GW does 99.5% of their sales in the first week - anything which survives to week 2 will stick around forever.

This box is not work $195. It is not worth $160. It isn't worth $130. It isn't even worth $100. Objectively. Comparatively. Somehow, through a combination of manipulations, GW has convinced people that their products are worth literally twice what people would normally be willing to pay for a product of that scale and value under normal market conditions. This is not a matter of being poor or GW being expensive. This is about GW using dirty, underhanded tricks in order to manipulate you into giving them extra money that their products wouldn't normally earn on their own merits. If GW ever kept anything in print, it would destroy them.

Part of it is just that its a model that the market has embraced. Not really because its overpriced, but because its limited. Online sales have pretty much taken over the "stocked" product. If something is sitting on shelves, its not going anywhere. Anyone that suddenly decides they need a box of skeletons will order it online. FLGS like the limited stuff because they generate preorders and sell out quickly at MSRP. The constant influx of new stuff keeps people coming back and puts them in a far more competitive position with online than they are with "forever" products.

I get reacting to prices, but seriously; vote with your wallet and move on.

Back on topic, disappointed with the tactical stance element of the Stalkers. I feared that it would be a number of options with one being clearly better and that is exactly the case; the unit will default to extra rend & damage unless it really needs the defensive value of re-roll saves. The other two will never be used since they are strictly worse. If it was re-roll hits and wounds that would be better.

Mawtribe Command Traits from Facebook:

Ooh very nice!

I see a army of general grievouses in my future. 10 rend2 dam2 and 3 rend3 dam3.

I’m so excited for the Ossiarchs, I think I may have an extra for the tithe.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
GW's pricing is kind of odd if you ask me.

That might be the understatement of the year. And a kind one at that.

GW's pricing is balls to the wall slowed. Pure and simple.

I guess the sarcasm wasn't conveyed well enough. Yes, you are correct, GW pricing is slowed. Just the differences in regional prices alone (as I'm sure you are aware of) are absolutely nuts. I can understand a marginal mark-up from converted prices due to logistical costs, but the ones they present are simply out the window.

The point I was trying to make is that GW skirmish games (Blood Bowl, Shadespire, Warcry, Necromunda) prices are relatively similar to other skirmish games, as where GW mass battle games are 3-5 times more expensive than other large scale games.

That ogre butcher model is sure terrible... Look at his upraised hand.

OK, so I really want to field my combined Ogre army again so all of that is awesome but the rules for those bone-dudes are really neat. I may have to get the box after all…

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m so excited for the Ossiarchs, I think I may have an extra for the tithe.

Subtle

 Mr_Rose wrote:
OK, so I really want to field my combined Ogre army again so all of that is awesome but the rules for those bone-dudes are really neat. I may have to get the box after all…

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m so excited for the Ossiarchs, I think I may have an extra for the tithe.

Subtle

I'm going to order two boxes and was thinking of pawning off the Ogors but now I think I might keep both armies.

Just wish I could clone myself to paint the Ogors, Bonemen, Salamanders, Sisters, Tyranids and finish my Seraphon.

Faction Focus: Ogor Mawtribes on Warhammer Community:

Those hunger/not hunter status and the mawpot being full or empty make me think that they might have some interesting "feeding/restocking" abilities within the army as well to compliment them.

Mawpot could certainly be interesting with a D3 heal on everything with 36inches, but at a one time thing its not huge. However if it can be refilled and used again then it becomes far more powerful. Esp for an elite multiwound faction.

Is free terrain so is a free bonus.

I'm liking the changes to charging special rules. Ogors getting a number of dice equal to the charge roll, bonereaper mounted leader gets the same rule and the wedge charge from the bonereaper knights getting a die per model in the unit and the models don't all have to be within a inch of a enemy model.

 Overread wrote:
Those hunger/not hunter status and the mawpot being full or empty make me think that they might have some interesting "feeding/restocking" abilities within the army as well to compliment them.

Mawpot could certainly be interesting with a D3 heal on everything with 36inches, but at a one time thing its not huge. However if it can be refilled and used again then it becomes far more powerful. Esp for an elite multiwound faction.

Good point. Definitely interested to see what GW has come up with. Maybe butchers will have some ability to refill the cauldron.

Sounds like the Ogors are another army that would be awesome...if triple Keeper HoS lists weren’t running around. Hopefully the Bonereapers will show up and won’t let my faction be an “auto win” and can actually make for lists that take skill and not just my favored army being broken.

I think everyone knows Keepers/Slaanesh is in for a nerf come the next big FAQ/update. I would be surprised (though not shocked...) if triple-keeper is still a thing come LVO.

does anyone have the full list of ossiarch bonereapers, im sure i saw another new character in a warhammer article

Archery2013 wrote:
does anyone have the full list of ossiarch bonereapers, im sure i saw another new character in a warhammer article

The most-recently seen character is Vokmortian, Master of the Bone-tithe.

NinthMusketeer wrote:I think everyone knows Keepers/Slaanesh is in for a nerf come the next big FAQ/update. I would be surprised (though not shocked...) if triple-keeper is still a thing come LVO.

Keepers aren't even the problem, its depravity. Adjust depravity first, then consider adjusting keepers later.

Archery2013 wrote:does anyone have the full list of ossiarch bonereapers, im sure i saw another new character in a warhammer article

Right now there's:

Mortek Guard - basic foot infantry. Sword and shield or spear and shield. At least one can carry a double handed blade, also banner carrier.
Hekatos - these are named in a recent article which shows the leader unit for the Mortek Guard thus its likely a fancy name for the units leader. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/22/faction-focus-ossiarch-bonereapersgw-homepage-post-1/

Necropolis Stalkers - four armed warriors with blades, leader/unique has two handed blades - also has four heads for four stat boosts
Immortis Guard - four armed warriors with halberds instead of blades - also only has one head

Kavalos Deathriders - Basic Cavalry also two weapons of sword and shield or spear and shield
Liege-Kavaloi - generic riding leader unit https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/07/lords-of-the-ossiarch-bonereapers-revealedgw-homepage-post-2/
Arch-Kavalos Zandtos - unique riding leader unit - combat focused it seems.

Reaper Leader - I forget its name, but we've not had a specific article on it yet to know if its a unique named hero or generic or both.
Reassembly Leader - this is one we've only seen bits of in photos. It's standing over a large skull whilst apparently rebuilding a broken warrior. It's also the one on the preview image for the warscrolls. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PreOrderPreview-Oct20-OBRCards6jvd.jpg
Mortisan Soulmason - generic (not unique) support leader who appears to benefit the mortek crawlers (artillery) https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/14/a-hat-worthy-of-nagash-new-hero-revealedgw-homepage-post-2/

Mortek Crawler- massive trebuchet on walking legs. Has several crew manning it.
Gothizzar Harvester - large unit that basically walks the battlefield harvesting souls and smashing things with its scyth blades or wrecking fists - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/07/a-bone-to-pickgw-homepage-post-2/
Orpheon Katakros - General of the whole army on his unique base. Also featuers unique rules that as he loses health he gains battle stats. Once on his last health block you fight the closecombat monster that he is.
Vokmortian, Master of the Bone-tithe - bone guy carrying the coffin (unique model in the Feast of Bones battle set). A front line support character.

Ontop of that there's:
Arkahan
Morghats in both forms (but no idea what their stats or how they perform in this army yet)
Nagash.

There's also a trio of endless spells (warrior, bird and floating head) and a huge imposing terrain feature

I think I got them all!

 Overread wrote:

NinthMusketeer wrote:I think everyone knows Keepers/Slaanesh is in for a nerf come the next big FAQ/update. I would be surprised (though not shocked...) if triple-keeper is still a thing come LVO.

Keepers aren't even the problem, its depravity. Adjust depravity first, then consider adjusting keepers later.

I had an idea that maybe add a mechanic that too much depravity could work against the army, much like in the lore where Slaanesh was captured and imprisoned because he/she took a power nap after too many trips to the Elf Soul Buffet.

Not sure how that could be implemented, was just an idea that came to me. A debuff of some sort maybe.

I'm anxious to see Katakros previewed. The way they've described his abilities in battle make him sound like the culmination of a final boss from a JRPG as it goes through multiple forms.

I really want to see the sprue layout for him too. With so many other models standing around on his base included it would be a cool touch to have them all removable from the main base to not only count them as they fall but to use them in other spots as well.

Worst case I guess I gotta get more magnets...

 nels1031 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

NinthMusketeer wrote:I think everyone knows Keepers/Slaanesh is in for a nerf come the next big FAQ/update. I would be surprised (though not shocked...) if triple-keeper is still a thing come LVO.

Keepers aren't even the problem, its depravity. Adjust depravity first, then consider adjusting keepers later.

I had an idea that maybe add a mechanic that too much depravity could work against the army, much like in the lore where Slaanesh was captured and imprisoned because he/she took a power nap after too many trips to the Elf Soul Buffet.

Not sure how that could be implemented, was just an idea that came to me. A debuff of some sort maybe.

Easier, just cap depravity per turn.

If you debuff that creates a really odd situation in a combat game where the slaanesh player would basically not want to actually fight, which considering it would likely kick in at the most critical combat heavy point of the game could easily lose them the game or leave them feeling like its an unfair system for them.

I still think the best approach is:

1) Cap depravity per turn; creating a known upper limit per turn and for a whole 6 turn average game.

2) Allow ALL models to generate depravity (or at least all slaanesh models). This levels the playing field between troops and leaders. It works both for army construction and summoning as now you can consider choosing troops over a leader.

3) Allow depravity from all damage dealt including death. This levels the playing field between multiwound armies and single wound armies. Right now a single wound army has an easier time because they won't generate as much depravity, by a significant amount. Meanwhile a multiwound based army is going to struggle more so because each of those hits they take that doesn't kill them, is giving over more and more depravity.

4) Adjust the depravity cost to account for the above.

Done together the limit prevents the change to all units generating and all attacks generating from getting out of control. It also means that whilst the Slaanesh player has a target to reach, they can't abuse/break the game by generating too much of the resource. This means that summons per turn have a cap and thus are a partly known quantity at the extreme upper limit. This makes it a lot easier to balance the points for depravity costs to summon as now you know what the maximum possible number is (and game testing can give some idea of the practical values - since you won't expect them to reach the quota every turn and in most games it will vary - first turn they might get very little then a glut in the middle 3 or 4 with it tailing off at the end as more models have been removed from the table on both sides).
By leveling it between troops and leaders it means that units like fiends come into their own now as no longer are their 200points competing for leader slots. In addition it means that troops gain value beyond their "battleline tax". It would encourage more diverse army compositions to be practical and viable in the game whilst also putting some control over depravity.



If GW were really smart and tested a lot they could even tier the depravity cap to point value for the game. A 1K game might have a lower cap whilst a 3K game might have a higher cap. But that's getting into further realms and it could equally be true to use different values for the costs of models. Presenting lower costs for lower point games etc... Again that's purely taking the established idea potential stage further.

Keepers are definitely a problem, or rather, the sinistrous hand is. It is one thing to have a model with that combat potential making enemies swing last on a 2+, with the ability to fight twice for a CP. It is another to have that, plus it heals ~4+ wounds a round.

Put differently, if depravity were the sole issue armies would see an even spread of Slaanesh characters. Instead the best lists specifically sink half their points into Keepers.

There is a much simpler solution to the depravity problem. In the book it says you get depravity for a wound that doesn't kill a model. Change that to getting depravity for doing wounds to models that don't die in that phase and you have a much more interesting mechanic. Now a unit of two wound models gives you a maximum of one depravity point.
It also makes the attack twice ability worse. Let's say you attack a monster once and do six wounds. If you choose to attack again and kill the monster, you lose your depravity points because the monster died in that phase.

Anyway, it is not long now until the next faq is due. It will be interesting to see what changes gw makes.