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 mmzero252 wrote:
Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.

Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.

This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.

Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.

This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.

In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.

Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.

Be fun to see if there's more to this change to a strategic double turn. Previously you could just house rule the damn thing out of existence and pretend that everything is wonderful. If they introduce rules interactions with and reliance on the double turn, that'll get a whole lot harder.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Agreed, control over realmgates doesn't stop the Skaven Gnaw-holes which can appear anywhere and Chaos can breach the walls of reality anyway - its just so much easier to use Realmgates in their myriad forms

The great cities - the "seeds of hope" have been established but some are built on treachery (by the Changling iirc) and strife with the locals is common including with Alarielle and most are riddled with corruption, cults and internal politics

Its very "Enemy Within" but now add Daughters of Khaine having an official presence in Azyr cities and until fairly recently the undead was not totally outlawed and cultists of Nagash sought new followers as did those of other gods.

Now of course Nagash and everyone else is at war plus chaos cults but the Deepkin and Destruction raiders.

Nowhere other than Azyr is really safe and its likely that much less safe now that the gates have been open for visitors for a hundred years plus.

Is there an offical explanation of the interaction of gnaw holes and the like with closing off Azyr in the Age of Chaos? Seems kind of pointless to shut the realmgates if Chaos can just circumvent them.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.

Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.

This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.

In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.

Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.

Well since match play isn't supposed to be just line up and kill I'd start there. Especially since we have 12 pretty balanced match play scenarios between the two Handbooks at this point. Not sure how if you're playing on table with sparse/improper terrain you'd prefer 40k at this point because 40k hammers you flat with shooting on bad tables.

I actually find both versions more enjoyable with lots of terrain, not just AoS, and I play with shooty armies in 40k. Just feels like there's more strategy than having free range to demolish somebody. But it's definitely a weird local player thing here to just jump right into a game and never bother opening a general's handbook. I want to like AoS, I really do...but I'll probably have to move to actually make that happen.

But on topic, I can certainly see where a tiny extra chance to decide is good. I'm still curious about the command points. It would be nice if they didn't make a dozen+ different strategems for each faction like in 40k. Some are so situational they never get used and when the situation comes up you forgot they existed. Some of the more repeated ones are great and things like rerolling die or interrupting combat would work well. Not sure how they're going to determine how many you get since detachments aren't a thing.

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.

From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.

Do tell where I'm wrong there.

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.

From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.

Do tell where I'm wrong there.

I did say above:

Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better

Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.

Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I actually find both versions more enjoyable with lots of terrain, not just AoS, and I play with shooty armies in 40k. Just feels like there's more strategy than having free range to demolish somebody. But it's definitely a weird local player thing here to just jump right into a game and never bother opening a general's handbook. I want to like AoS, I really do...but I'll probably have to move to actually make that happen.

But on topic, I can certainly see where a tiny extra chance to decide is good. I'm still curious about the command points. It would be nice if they didn't make a dozen+ different strategems for each faction like in 40k. Some are so situational they never get used and when the situation comes up you forgot they existed. Some of the more repeated ones are great and things like rerolling die or interrupting combat would work well. Not sure how they're going to determine how many you get since detachments aren't a thing.

Wow. That sucks. Objective play is essential to making aos an enjoyable and tactical game. That's why every single book comes with battleplans. There are literally hundreds to choose from at this point.

It is worth noting that they also wrote "There will be some other advantages to going second each battle round as well…"

...which to me means there might be something additional in those turns. Let's simply think about mystic shield: you cast it on turn one, round one, opponent goes, gets double turn, you have the +1 save for 3 turns straight, which is not bad at all.

Got to say, I'm getting more and more hyped with this release!

That might be as simple as objectives in some missions being scored at the end of a battle round; going second gives you a chance to grab them without worrying about getting shoved off them.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.

From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.

Do tell where I'm wrong there.

I did say above:

Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better

Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.

Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.

If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.

In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.

A step in the right direction in my book. Maybe not enough all things considered, but I'd rather have small steps taken at a time than a completely different game with each new edition.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.

From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.

Do tell where I'm wrong there.

I did say above:

Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better

Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.

Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.

If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.

In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.

You're aware that the realms aren't planets, right?

Maybe it's nothing, but they also mentioned something coming for Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness, and those guys in the front are Blightkings, but with Everchosen colors...

(Also that thing in the background looks like the Glottkin or a GUO...)

What if Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness can take mortal Chaos battlelines and "battleline if..." units from chaos gods' specific armies? Like, Blightknights, Blood Warriors and such? Making them effectively the "Stormcasts" of chaos, having them ally with any chaos faction...

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.

It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.

It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.

If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.

Exactly this. Is it better than what we currently have? Certainly is. Is it strategic? Lol. Um, no.

A friend of mine had a great idea for this. Was saying whoever doesn’t get the first turn, automatically goes first turn 3. I think that would be great.

My biggest gripe with the GW designers is the amount of random crap they tend to throw in. It doesn’t make games better. It makes them unpredictable and not as fun. I love AoS and I’ll continue to play, but I’m definitely lamenting the missed opportunity.

Everchosen and slave to darkness
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/16/16th-may-faction-focus-everchosen-and-slaves-to-darknessgw-homepage-post-3/

From the Community update:

The Everchosen, in particular, have a deadly advantage in the new edition with the Overlords of Chaos warscroll battalion. Made up of Archaon, a Gaunt Summoner and a unit of Varanguard – all great units in their own right – this formation means that turn priority is always fifty-fifty, rather than providing either player with an advantage, as well as letting you know if you’re going to get a double turn or not.

Not sure how an even 50/50 means letting you know if you are going to get a double turn...

Not a whole lot of info from a rules standpoint, but it's interesting to know that Archaon is going to be cheaper. It may be easier to fit him into an army now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:
From the Community update:

The Everchosen, in particular, have a deadly advantage in the new edition with the Overlords of Chaos warscroll battalion. Made up of Archaon, a Gaunt Summoner and a unit of Varanguard – all great units in their own right – this formation means that turn priority is always fifty-fifty, rather than providing either player with an advantage, as well as letting you know if you’re going to get a double turn or not.

Not sure how an even 50/50 means letting you know if you are going to get a double turn...

The battalion ability means you don't roll off for the double-turn. The player with that battalion rolls a die at the beginning of the battle round and hide it. Only he knows the result. If it's 1-3, the other player will get the first turn next round. If it's 4-6, he will go first. It's 50/50, but the player controlling the battalion will always know whether on not he gets a double turn.

Meh. Nothing about this change makes me not auto-win a round 1-2 double.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.

None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.

Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.

From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.

Do tell where I'm wrong there.

I did say above:

Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better

Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.

Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.

If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.

In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.

You joke but what if that "spade" you're going for creates dimensional wormholes. Science thinks its possible even if we don't understand how it would work or when we'll get there.

As for AoS remember that Azyrheim is Sigmar's domain. He's a god but not an all powerful one. He could seal off Azyheim because of his personal power and it being his. That stands to reason that his power gets diluted if he starts "shielding" the other realms. Which makes them vulnerable to magic wormholes that can be created to jump from realm to realm. Hence no special water walkway in Azyrheim but the deepkin could develop it in other realms to jump realm to realm.

Moot since Sigmar is not even close to controlling all the Realmgates. And sealing means no one goes in OR out, realmgate or otherwise. Also, wherever it is Skaven get in, fast, unless it is completely sealed off. Back in the realmgate wars one of the first events to happen was the discovery of Ghal Maraz's location; a stormcast sees it before he dies then reports it to sigmar after being reforged. In that metting there is a skaven listening in. Not only had they already gotten into Azyr but they were literally in Sigmar's throne room.

 Crimson wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.

Yep. It is massively impactful, and doesn't even simulate anything. It is pure game mechanics, and bad game mechanics at that.

yeah that's terrible. I hope that this is not their idea of adding more depth to the game, or else 2nd edition will be as shallow as the first one

I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.

Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.

Marleymoo wrote:
I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.

Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.

Maybe command abilities have a activation cost that is paid from your command point pool? So as long as you have the points you can activate any ability your units have.

Marleymoo wrote:
I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.

Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.

They were in the clock when he bought it. On the second point, agreed.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.

Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.

This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.

In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.

Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.

Wow, that to me would be like, say, removing the shooting phase from the game. You simply can't play a normal game without objectives. I would start working on getting your group to play proper games if I were you!

It wouldn't help.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It wouldn't help.

That's my assessment as well. In my admittedly limited experience (not that many games played, although at least an even mix of objectives and annihilation) there are too many armies for which it doesn't make a difference whether they use the double turn to cripple the opposing army's ability to fight back effectively or cripple its ability to score objectives effectively.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/17/17th-may-faction-focus-ironjawzgw-homepage-post-3/


Faction focus ironjaws

This was in the Ironjawz Faction Focus today, and it goes with this:

They're called "Endless Spells" and they said we'll see more "soon..."

Ironjawz Faction Focus
Ardboyz and Maw-Krushas(including Gordrakk) are seeing a points drop as well.