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Today we have Sylvaneth. And that Amphorae sounds scary.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/25/25th-may-faction-focus-sylvanethgw-homepage-post-3/

I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble. That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.

 eohall wrote:
I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble.

Read the rules in-depth a bit.
It's once per game for the summoning aspect of the Soul Amphorae in Hero phase and the unit that gets placed cannot move during Movement.

It goes Hero Phase->Movement Phase->Shooting Phase->Charge->Combat->Battleshock
And Alarielle already has that ability. It's just tied to a D6 roll on an ability she has rather than being "once per game". The Amphorae as it stands now is a D6 where the 1-3 is the "heal 30 models", 4 is 2D6 Dryads, 5 is D6 Tree-Revenants, and 6 is a Treelord.

Branchwraiths are going to be able to summon models via "a tweaked version of her spell, Roused to Wrath". I would be surprised if it's not going to be something similar to the Isharann Rituals in Deepkin where you get +1 to the roll for being within a certain distance of a terrain feature, +1 for each keyword "Branchwraith" nearby, etc.

That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.

I don't know how the other armies are going to get access to some of this stuff, but I could see other armies being able to use Command Points to reinforce casualties or duplicate lost units somehow.

To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.

I assume she will become more expensive based on that.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.

I assume she will become more expensive based on that.

Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.

I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.

 eohall wrote:
All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists.

It seems like everybody's getting some summoning? Which is I guess a welcome balance to how summoning has typically been in Warhams (only Undead, Daemons, Sylvaneth in AOS). But I'm with you on feeling like summoning is just about encouraging people to buy more models, and essentially requiring it if you want to be competitive. Remember summoning in the frontier days of AOS Year 1? Not seeing that level of imba approaching ... but it gives me the same feels of pay-to-win.

Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.

Same boat. Feeling driven further and further away at this point

- Salvage

The following image was just posted on their Facebook page:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
It seems like everybody's getting some summoning?

Doesn't look like Daughters of Khaine will be. Their battletome is up to date to the 2nd edition and I don't think there's any summoning in it (most command traits are about giving extra attack actions to nearby units).

It seems like summoning armies will be able to summon something each game, but how many somethings they can summon will greatly depend on how well they play (or how well their opponent stops them). Also, the summoning tables appear to be kept separately from the units, and like the points tables, could be updated in future General's Handbooks if it becomes a problem.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
It seems like everybody's getting some summoning?

Doesn't look like Daughters of Khaine will be. Their battletome is up to date to the 2nd edition and I don't think there's any summoning in it (most command traits are about giving extra attack actions to nearby units).

It seems like summoning armies will be able to summon something each game, but how many somethings they can summon will greatly depend on how well they play (or how well their opponent stops them). Also, the summoning tables appear to be kept separately from the units, and like the points tables, could be updated in future General's Handbooks if it becomes a problem.

I'm wondering if Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth are going to get something added later on.
I really think that the Eidolon for the Idoneth, for example, could have been part of the Isharann Rituals but required a 15+ to summon(meaning it would have required a top notch roll and a Gloomtide Shipwreck and at least two Priests).

Oh thank God! Turning opponents/failed Chaos Heroes into Spawn or w/e no longer costs reinforcement points. I think that’s the part of reinforcement points that bothered me the most. The unit affected didn’t die; it just mutated. And you had to pay a penalty cost for the mutation.

I'm glad to see the benefits for the Flesh Court, they got hit really hard by the summoning rules.

I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,

Aren73 wrote:
ERJAK - OK then let's walk through it.

I agree with your general point that the sky is certainly not falling because of the new summoning mechanics, but a few things are still not quite right with your argument

Aren73 wrote:
So, your general is on a gravesite, the opponent can't really get there in time, you're good right? HAHA NO YOU'RE FLIPPING NOT! All they need to do is kill your general. Shooting armies will not struggle with that, neither will magic armies. Spells that move models around would be hilarious at this point. If they make it their plan to kill your general turn 1 they'll probably manage.

No, they probably won't. Unbinding has become a lot more easy and thanks to Look out Sir! combined with some of the defensive artifacts from Legion of Sacrament your general will be very resistant to shooting. It might be doable under very specific circumstances with certain armies and setups, but in most cases this is not going to happen. Any human sized general will be out of sight as well for most things, if the player has any sense.

Aren73 wrote:
Phew, you made it! Some of your units are dead, you're on a gravesite, the opponent can't make it there, your general is alive...so what do? You can spend a command point and summon a unit (only once because only one model in your army can do this and that's your general). Now your unit must fit in a 9" bubble around the gravesite. So no 60 man skeleton hordes. You'll probably summon a medium unit of grave guard, some black knights, some skeletons, some dire wolves or spirit hosts. They're all fine units except all but two are quite slow and without a sizeable amount of support they don't hit THAT hard. You might want to just use them for objective grabbing, that's what I'd do anyway.

Command Abilities can be used multiple times in the same turn. It's explicitly mentioned in the Legions of Nagash preview.
Also, Skeletons come in units of 40 max.

Does this mean that LoN is going to spiral out of control? I don't think so. As you mentioned, there are still plenty of conditions attached to bringing units back.

Chikout wrote:
I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,

Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.

Lemondish wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,

Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.

Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.

Neronoxx wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,

Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.

Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.

I mean, I get that this would be the case if one only read the article titles....alas, I guess I'm expecting too much. Oh well, I understand your concerns.

Though I am a staunch proponent for waiting until the whole picture crystalizes and we've had a chance to actually play with and against it.

The summoning ability I am most concerned about is pink horrors, and blue horrors, which have on-card summoning, but that ability can be dealt with in unit costing. On the other hand, tzeentch has a severe lack of command abilities and inspiring presence has been weakened, so the new command points are probably a net tzeentch nerf.

Assuming all direct 'summon this unit' spells are removed, most other on-card or on-battalion summoning is much more limited.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.

I assume she will become more expensive based on that.

Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.

I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.

Would your opinion be the same if an opposing Kharadron player got to bring on a free frigate turn one? How about a free GUO turn 1? It's like having that many extra points in the list just for bringing her.

Unless the GHB changes Alarielles pricing to reflect this, or there is a gated mechanic to it.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Unless the GHB changes Alarielles pricing to reflect this, or there is a gated mechanic to it.

Yes, that is the caveat. I think we're all hoping for something to counterbalance things.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.

I assume she will become more expensive based on that.

Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.

I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.

Would your opinion be the same if an opposing Kharadron player got to bring on a free frigate turn one? How about a free GUO turn 1? It's like having that many extra points in the list just for bringing her.

For a once per game ability blown on the first turn, where the unit can't move or do anything associated with what the unit is designed for?

Yeah, my opinion would be about the same. If you could bring on a free Frigate that couldn't move or shoot--I'd say it's balanced. If you could bring on a free GUO that couldn't move or cast or do anything aside from stand there as a fire magnet, yes.

So 300-400 extra points for free with the only condition that the first turn does nothing... yeah I'll take that all day.

I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.

Davor wrote:
I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.

It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.

Lemondish wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,

Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.

Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.

I mean, I get that this would be the case if one only read the article titles....alas, I guess I'm expecting too much. Oh well, I understand your concerns.

Though I am a staunch proponent for waiting until the whole picture crystalizes and we've had a chance to actually play with and against it.

Neronoxx had it pretty much right. In the promotion for these changes GW is throwing around the word 'free' like candy, especially in that recent poster from Facebook. It is a little misleading, and may have result in some players overreacting a little.
As GW themselves have stated, most summoning abilities depend on in game activities. These abilities can be counteracted by the opposing player to an extent.
The only summoning ability we have seen so far that is pretty much unprevenatble is Alarielle's one.
Interestingly these abilities seem to be somewhat balanced against each other. If we assume that a nurgle player is playing against someone trying to prevent them accumulating to many contagion points, about 300 points of summoning across the game is likely. This is a bit more points wise than Sylvaneth but less reliable.
Death have the potential to get more but they can be zoned out and the general becomes the linchpin of the army.

I think everyone is worried about what non summoning, non magic armies will get to counteract this. I think that we are all waiting for the other shoe to drop.
People are also worried about this being a pay to win or a sales based mechanic but I really don't see it that way.
With the increased emphasis on battalions, heroes and exchanging points for command abilities we will probably see fewer models on the table than before. Summoning balances this.
For example, I don't put my guo in my list but instead I stock up on command points and battalions. I can then summon the guo in the game.

 eohall wrote:
I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble. That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.

I agree 100%, seems like a way to get people to buy more models. The game is enough of a clusterfrack as it is at 2000 points. Now if people have 2500-3000 pt armies masquerading as 2000 points it'll turn into a joke pretty fast. It will also make games last longer, which isn't a good thing if you ask me. I was considering starting AoS with this edition, but to be honest I might just stick with blood bowl...at least that game is a sure thing, and it ain't going to be changing all the time either.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Davor wrote:
I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.

It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.

I like how 9" magically becomes charges needing 12. No, charges need a 9 with a handy re roll courtesy of the new command ability. I also like the implied statement that "well if it can't move its balanced with the player who doesn't get anything".

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Davor wrote:
I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.

It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.

I like how 9" magically becomes charges needing 12. No, charges need a 9 with a handy re roll courtesy of the new command ability. I also like the implied statement that "well if it can't move its balanced with the player who doesn't get anything".

You have to remain within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units.

While yeah, I did make a mistake in saying "double 6s" rather than "5+'s"--the point remains that bringing in a CC oriented monster(assuming it's just Treelords rather than anything with keyword Treelord) when it can't make a Move and just has to stand there waving its branches at people is relatively balanced.

Especially considering that anyone bringing it on turn one(which is what the argument keeps centering around) likely won't be able to bring it on within 12 inches of any enemy models to land a charge.

Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!

Hint: It won't be.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!

Hint: It won't be.

So you know for certain that there won't be a stratagem allowing for you to shoot any freshly deployed items?