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Ushtarador wrote:
Another example with 2 units (distances may not be up to scale):

1) Declare charge only against the front unit (yes, this example assumes you roll high enough, or are able to move close to the front unit)
2) Move some of the charging models such that they end up closer to the back unit
3) Consolidate into the back unit, it can't be attacked as it was not the target of the charge
4) Wipe the front unit and remain locked in CC

Regardless of whether or not you wipe the front unit, the back unit would fall back. This simply doesn't work the way you're picturing. The last screenshot is not possible in the span of your turn. And if you did wipe the front unit you're blasted off the table. If you kill some of the front unit, that will fall back as well. It wouldn't take many casualties.

I'm done. This is beyond absurd now.

The fly rule is only mentioned in the "Movement Phase" section of the rules, the Charge and Fight phases don't say anything about it. Whether or not this is deliberate, I don't know, but it looks to me that RAW you can't do that (and I imagine that's how it's likely to go down in a tournament setting too).

 Porphyrius wrote:
The fly rule is only mentioned in the "Movement Phase" section of the rules, the Charge and Fight phases don't say anything about it. Whether or not this is deliberate, I don't know, but it looks to me that RAW you can't do that (and I imagine that's how it's likely to go down in a tournament setting too).

Well, the restriction that we can't move over enemy models is also only mentioned in the Movement Phase section, soooo...

Regardless of whether or not you wipe the front unit, the back unit would fall back. This simply doesn't work the way you're picturing. The last screenshot is not possible in the span of your turn. And if you did wipe the front unit you're blasted off the table.

Why would the last step not work? The charging unit has Fly and can consolidate 3" after attacking. You have not given a single rules-based reason why it would not work, yet you conclude it can't be correct, what is wrong with you?

Ushtarador wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
The fly rule is only mentioned in the "Movement Phase" section of the rules, the Charge and Fight phases don't say anything about it. Whether or not this is deliberate, I don't know, but it looks to me that RAW you can't do that (and I imagine that's how it's likely to go down in a tournament setting too).

Well, the restriction that we can't move over enemy models is also only mentioned in the Movement Phase section, soooo...

Fair point. In any event, I don't think that this is cut and dry in either direction.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's a way to get that BA model behind the UM line in the original diagram. The complete diagram is legit.

That's a legal movement actually, with hormagaunst we do it all the time. That said, with Hgaunts it's easy, they don't kill anything.

Anyway, here are the results for AM:

January:

Results in top half 49%
Top 4 score (average is 1) 0,6

December:

Results in top half 53%
Top 4 score 1,33

Really interesting. The way i read this is that AM top lists were absolutely busted before CA (1,33 in T4 score is a lot), while AM average lists were right on spot.

As we all know, AM has been hurt really badly by CA, conscripts at 4 points among many many other point increases. Tyranids and DA also like to chew on cadian gunline lists. The result is that in January they are having problems making good results, while the average lists weren't really hit by this. We could say that CA was spot on with the changes there, hitting only the top lists.

This is in line with my thought that AM are no longer the ideal competitive list against which everything should be measured. What is making really good results in January are Ynnari, Aeldari and Chaos, with Tyranids, SM (especially non codex) and Cult Mechanicus following closely.

Edit: Top 4 score is [(total top 4 obtained)/(total number of top 4 spots available)]/(percentage of AM over total players). So if you take 12% of total spots with the faction having 10% of players present, that's a 1,2.
Results coming from https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/events?system=1

 Marmatag wrote:


I'm done. This is beyond absurd now.

I still see no reason why the first image posted isn't legit play.

Jump packs don't function in the assault phase. Almost all TOs have ruled this way.

Martel732 wrote:
Jump packs don't function in the assault phase. Almost all TOs have ruled this way.

Is this to me? It looks like you can just walk there. (regarding first diagram)

For moving over/through models that's too bad. That would make Jump Troops much more fun to play.

A Jump Troop model can attack a Flyer though.

Spoletta wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's a way to get that BA model behind the UM line in the original diagram. The complete diagram is legit.

That's a legal movement actually, with hormagaunst we do it all the time. That said, with Hgaunts it's easy, they don't kill anything.

It's easier with hormagants because we have a 6" pile in.

And stop posting data without a source. It's not credible.

Martel732 wrote:
Jump packs don't function in the assault phase. Almost all TOs have ruled this way.

Hm, definitely not the case around here. I don't see the reason why not. The Fly rules does not have any restriction of only working in the Movement phase.

If the reasoning is that it's defined in the Movement Phase section, so is the definition of what "Moving" is - if Fly doesn't work in the Assault phase, neither does "Moving", which obviously becomes a bit absurd.

 Marmatag wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's a way to get that BA model behind the UM line in the original diagram. The complete diagram is legit.

That's a legal movement actually, with hormagaunst we do it all the time. That said, with Hgaunts it's easy, they don't kill anything.

It's easier with hormagants because we have a 6" pile in.

And stop posting data without a source. It's not credible.

Added source.

Ushtarador wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Jump packs don't function in the assault phase. Almost all TOs have ruled this way.

Hm, definitely not the case around here. I don't see the reason why not. The Fly rules does not have any restriction of only working in the Movement phase.

If the reasoning is that it's defined in the Movement Phase section, so is the definition of what "Moving" is - if Fly doesn't work in the Assault phase, neither does "Moving", which obviously becomes a bit absurd.

You 100% can't do it in ITC. Trying to find ruling.

Pile in and Consolidate moves in the Charge section does not say you can't move through models. It only says that in the movement section.
Therefor you can move through models.
/s

There is no reason to believe Fly does not work in the charge phase.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Yes you can, if the enemy unit doesn’t have the Keyword Fly they can’t move through your models if you surround them.

They don't need to move through your models, you cannot surround 10 models with 10 models.

You can if they're clumped. Just sayin. 25mm and 32mm examples.




Target unit has to screw up pretty bad, but there it is.

Ordana wrote:
Pile in and Consolidate moves in the Charge section does not say you can't move through models. It only says that in the movement section.
Therefor you can move through models.
/s

There is no reason to believe Fly does not work in the charge phase.

That isn't how rules work in 40k. Without express permission you can't violate a general rule.

Fly doesnt say movement phase, it says when a model moves. So yes fly works at all times a model moves.

Well, we found the disconnect. The interpretation of this is pretty critical.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, we found the disconnect. The interpretation of this is pretty critical.

When many other rules are in phases and then there are general rules that dont state a phase, we dont argue about all the other ones, this is the same.

Pile in is a movement, consolidate is a movement, it says when a model moves, not moves in the movement phase, rea the rest of that page, it states movement phases for a lot of other parts of rules, leaving it to only a "movement" is clear.

Edit: It even says in the next paragraph about Minimum move, it even states Minimum movement is for the movement phase. Oo again another spot showing that Fly isnt bound to a phase (by NOT saying its only the movement phases).

I'll stop here, we can go to YMDC if you want.

 Marmatag wrote:

Ordana wrote:
Pile in and Consolidate moves in the Charge section does not say you can't move through models. It only says that in the movement section.
Therefor you can move through models.
/s

There is no reason to believe Fly does not work in the charge phase.

That isn't how rules work in 40k. Without express permission you can't violate a general rule.

Except no general rule is violated since Fly does mention any restriction about phase.

If the "you can't move through model rule' applies to all phases, why does the Fly rule not follow the same logic? They are both listed in the movement section and contain no further limitations.

Because the move occurs outside of the movement phase.

A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or
less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.
If the datasheet for a model says it can
Fly, it can move across models and
terrain as if they were not there.

This is where the models with fly are given an exception - in the movement phase. They are not given such an exception in the charge phase or the fight phase.

Here's an example of why.

If fly models ignore vertical distance (terrain) when moving, that would mean when you deep strike 9" away, you measure base to base, so a flyer charging a unit on top of a 6" ruin would be 9" away, but require a 3" charge.

But your wrong.... You message BTB, its still over 9", You dont ignore terrain for measuring, just the actual movement and then you still measure BTB for the movement, you just ignore any terrain ni the way of your straight line from your base, to their base.

And again if you keep reading in the "FLY" rules it says "when this model moves" not movement phase.

I also never seen ITC follow your logic, i even just double check and its not a rule of theirs, unless i over looked it (I did a search for "FLY" "Jump" "pile" and some other words)

Yeah, I can't seem to remember where I heard it or read it now. All the YMDC threads seem to agree with Amish. That changes the surrounding equation quite a bit, really.

FLG ruled it you can fly during the charge. They have been right on the money all of eighth edition and much to some's chagrin.

So then logically i should be able to pile in from the ground floor of a ruins to the top floor, even if that distance is 12", because Fly ignores terrain when determining distance.

Frankly i don't even see how this matters. The scenarios as pictured and described aren't going to happen for you.

The only flying units in my army are hive tyrants. I'll try a 4-12+" consolidation move next time i play a game and see what the judge says.

 Primark G wrote:
FLG ruled it you can fly during the charge. They have been right on the money all of eighth edition and much to some's chagrin.

Where is that at?

Awesome.

You even quoted the section Marmatag. Either everything in this section holds both in the Movement and Assault phase, or nothing - and I think everybody agrees the first part holds in both phases.

Whether you believe the strategy is effective in practice is another thing, I'm convinced it is very effective against gunline armies.

So then logically i should be able to pile in from the ground floor of a ruins to the top floor, even if that distance is 12", because Fly ignores terrain when determining distance.

No because you can only ignore terrain when moving OVER it (meaning you can jump over a hill). But you still have to measure the actual distance in 3d between your starting and final position. Specifically, this part of the rules still holds for models with Fly: "No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this."

 Marmatag wrote:
So then logically i should be able to pile in from the ground floor of a ruins to the top floor, even if that distance is 12", because Fly ignores terrain when determining distance.

Frankly i don't even see how this matters. The scenarios as pictured and described aren't going to happen for you.

The only flying units in my army are hive tyrants. I'll try a 4-12+" consolidation move next time i play a game and see what the judge says.

Ignore terrain not distance, you can move through, over, past, w/e you want to call it and you can land in/on it (tho most likely wobbly modeling that lol) but you still follow movement rules for distance. Just b.c you can ignore an object doesnt mean you can still move more than 3" or w/e your movement is.

A good example is your base to base is 3" away, but there is a 30" tall way that is 1mm thick in front of you, you can now ignore that wall b.c your still 3" away measuring your base to their base.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
FLG ruled it you can fly during the charge. They have been right on the money all of eighth edition and much to some's chagrin.

Where is that at?

This^ i've looked and i couldnt find.

I doubt the OP wanted a bunch of doom and gloom for his faction. Asscans are great and I think Marines can generally hold their own in your average match. You may start to see the inherent weakness of your preferred chapter in casual matches though. Obviously if you're going to a GT and you start facing armies at their peak then you're gonna start seeing the limitation of your codex. I also don't think there's anything wrong with taking a patrol of detachment of IG to fill out your SM list. Honestly, from a fluff perspective, that's just cool. If also happens to be slightly competitive, double win.

So much of this ruleset is in so many different places - designers commentary, FAQ, ITC FLG chats, it's almost impossible to get confirmation that it's allowed. The real question is: Can you get away with it in a tournament? I'm going to a GT soon. I'll try it there with my HT.