Thousand Sons are dead...

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Earth127**

Formosa wrote:
They are the same people, with more experience, yep they are a collection of sorcerer kings, as well as many other things, some of which reside on the planet of sorcerors. There organisation is still roughly equivalent to the legions of old, as seen in the chaos marine codex, they have access to dark mechanhicus forge worlds and build there own kit, we don't know how they recruit, the internal heirarchy is still military based as shown in several novels, but different from the heresy naming conventions, yes the list goes on.

They do have access to a lot of the same gear as the heresy, they just don't have them on the models, if they wanted 4 auto cannon for a rubric havoc squad, they would just pay for them, steal them or make a deal for them, like every other chaos legion/chapter, they do have standard bolters etc. But with inferno bolts, different ammunition basically, and yep I agree they should have freaky warp based gear, in addition to the basics, not instead of the the basics.

And yep that is the crux of the issue, the 40k sons are not consistent with the 30k ones, the new codex needs to explain why they are not consistent to satisfy me, it needs to explain who drives the vehicles, how they replace loses, where all that equipment went, why sorcerors are so dumb they can't band a few guys together to form special weapon, heavy and other units when they are the same sorcerers that served with those same units, did they forget there training or somthing?

Most importantly the "no model, no rules" crap needs to die, give us these units, let us make them and covert them.

This has never made real sense for any 40k faction, least of all the CSM. The scale trope is in full effect.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

**Crimson**

I find it completely surreal that people dare to complain that there are not enough TS stuff when they just recently got several kits. Sure, there always could be more, but they've got more stuff than ever before.

**nintura**

Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.

**Crimson**

nintura wrote:
Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.

No I didn't. You have more stuff than ever before. How did you play the army before? Now you have more options.

Also, this seems to be part of the usual trend of Chaos players not actually wanting to play Chaos marines, but heresy marines in 40K. Most TS are empty automaton suits. That's what they have been since 2nd edition, you knew this when you chose the faction.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?

They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.

I've played for 26 years now, but I'm not quite sure why that is relevant.

You're right, those bolt pistols are so devastating and DG have no other benefits at all.

Pox Walkers don't have power weapons or grenades. Stop being ridiculous. DG et al are elite in any other book. They get to be troops in their own book, because of the other restrictions.

DG don't get a second attack just because you've internally justified the reasons to yourself nor do they need it to be effective.

**nintura**

Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:
Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.

No I didn't. You have more stuff than ever before. How did you play the army before? Now you have more options.

Also, this seems to be part of the usual trend of Chaos players not actually wanting to play Chaos marines, but heresy marines in 40K. Most TS are empty automaton suits. That's what they have been since 2nd edition, you knew this when you chose the faction.

Wow really? Automatons you say? I'm glad you told me! That makes total sense when it comes to rules and how the army should play.... /s

And I didnt play the army before, because you couldn't. And I'm still not, because the codex is Tzaangor with Thousand Sons backup. My 1k Army? 1 Rubric Squad, 1 Occult squad, 1 Ahriman. Then it's 3 Tzaangor, Helbrute, Helturkey, Pred. 2 squads of Thousand Sons. Because they are too damned expensive and don't really do anything at all on their own. Then you go and nerf smite while keeping their Sorcerers (the backbone of their army in the lore) weak? Because yeah....

I have no idea what the point of that comment was about? What does them being suits of dust have to do with not having a way to play a real 1k Sons list? I want to play Thousand Sons, not Beastmen with backup Thousand Sons. And I dont want to play blue/gold generic chaos space marines. This is a codex. Not the index. You should have enough to actually support building an army, not just Rubrics and Occult Termies. Literally, most 1500 point armies only have 1 or 2 squads of actual Thousand Sons units. Much army, such wow.

**ZebioLizard2**

Thousand Sons use other things then just Rubrics.

**Crimson**

nintura wrote:

Wow really? Automatons you say? I'm glad you told me! That makes total sense when it comes to rules and how the army should play.... /s

I have no idea what the point of that comment was about? What does them being suits of dust have to do with not having a way to play a real 1k Sons list? I want to play Thousand Sons, not Beastmen with backup Thousand Sons. And I dont want to play blue/gold generic chaos space marines. This is a codex. Not the index. You should have enough to actually support building an army, not just Rubrics and Occult Termies. Literally, most 1500 point armies only have 1 or 2 squads of actual Thousand Sons units. Much army, such wow.

This was the case in the last edition too. You knew this when you chose the faction. And now you have more options in form of new Tzaangors and Vortex Beasts, you just don't want to include them.

Robrics should be solid units and worth choosing, that is clear. If it is not the case now, it should be after the codex. And if it is not, then you can complain. But complaining that there are no rubric assault marines or havocs or whatever is just weird. There never was such things. (And yes, there could, but there is a limit how many new plastic kits GW can make.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nintura wrote:

And I didnt play the army before, because you couldn't. And I'm still not, because the codex is Tzaangor with Thousand Sons backup. My 1k Army? 1 Rubric Squad, 1 Occult squad, 1 Ahriman. Then it's 3 Tzaangor, Helbrute, Helturkey, Pred. 2 squads of Thousand Sons.

Remove Tzaangors, add more Thousand Sons. Hellbrute and Hellturkey can be piloted by dust marines rather than by flesh marines. That's just fluff. Model them appropriately.

Because they are too damned expensive and don't really do anything at all on their own. Then you go and nerf smite while keeping their Sorcerers (the backbone of their army in the lore) weak? Because yeah....

And if that is the case after the codex is released, then your complaint is valid. Also, the smite nerf is a trail rule, it is not official yet.

**Daedalus81**

I've been told the Community guys confirmed Skyfires are indeed in.

**andysonic1**

nintura wrote:
Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .

Please share the link to the codex leaks.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?

They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.

I've played for 26 years now, but I'm not quite sure why that is relevant.

You're right, those bolt pistols are so devastating and DG have no other benefits at all.

Pox Walkers don't have power weapons or grenades. Stop being ridiculous. DG et al are elite in any other book. They get to be troops in their own book, because of the other restrictions.

DG don't get a second attack just because you've internally justified the reasons to yourself nor do they need it to be effective.

Death Guard don't have a lot of benefits unless you shoehorn Mortarion into every list.

You're also still missing the point about the inconsistencies that have happened within the codex and Death Guard in general since last edition.

**EnTyme**

nintura wrote:
Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .

It sounds to me that you want to play 30k Thousand Sons, not 40k Thousand Sons. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, every marine in the legion was either powerful enough to resist or was turned into a golem. For the former, you have the Exalted Sorcerers kit. For the latter, you have the Occult Termies and Rubric Marines. Anything beyond that is going to be either a traitor marine recruited recently or a slave from the Planet of Sorcerors. That's what the Thousand Sons looks like in the 42nd Millenium. You can always play 30k, though. It still seems to be pretty popular in most areas.

**grouchoben**

I mean, the new Tzaangors are gonna have to do something pretty special to stop me from taking Tzeentch Daemon detachments instead, to flesh out my Sons. They're shaping up very nicely. Flexible, great deepstrike, fast, good damage, everything the Sons have had trouble with...

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?

Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?

OP here.

For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.

Thousand sons have always been a smaller Elite army which made use of SOME fodder units to tie up enemy units till the Rubrics finish off what the're dealing with.

Keep in mind this is not even addressing the dubious nature of releasing new models with certain abilities and then changeing the rules so they become almost useless and adding in another model to the army and making the army dependent on tgise units.

**Formosa**

EnTyme wrote:
nintura wrote:
Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .

It sounds to me that you want to play 30k Thousand Sons, not 40k Thousand Sons. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, every marine in the legion was either powerful enough to resist or was turned into a golem. For the former, you have the Exalted Sorcerers kit. For the latter, you have the Occult Termies and Rubric Marines. Anything beyond that is going to be either a traitor marine recruited recently or a slave from the Planet of Sorcerors. That's what the Thousand Sons looks like in the 42nd Millenium. You can always play 30k, though. It still seems to be pretty popular in most areas.

Tired of saying this but here we go again, 30k thousand sons are 40k thousand sons, but for whatever reason gw decided not to give thousand sons the most basic options they would still have, even after the rubric, there is zero fluff, model, or logical reason rubrics cannot fill the roles they were armed and equipped for in the legions list, the rubric did not turn every plasma gun into a Bolter, every lascannon into a rotary cannon, give thousand sons the basic options, then build from there.

**Crimson**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.

I recommend that you start writing your armylists yourself, instead of letting other people to write them for you, as you currently seem to be doing. That way you don't actually have to include any Tzaangors if you don't want to. I hope this helps!

**Ahriman21**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?

Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?

For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.

Thousand sons have always been a smaller Elite army which made use of SOME fodder units to tie up enemy units till the Rubrics finish off what the're dealing with.

Keep in mind this is not even addressing the dubious nature of releasing new models with certain abilities and then changeing the rules so they become almost useless and adding in another model to the army and making the army dependent on tgise units.

Aside from GWs design decision I dont think we have any reason to worry about Rubrics, At their current points they are decent for what you get but with lack of tactics, strategems, Legion trait it makes sense why they are falling behind other units.

I have had overall good turn outs with Rubrics and basically always take 20 or more in a list. I dont know about you; but Ill be doing that almost every game with my Sons. They arent cripplingly expensive and usually do fairly well for me on the table.

Tzaangors also do fairly well, for 3 points more then a cultist they perform very well for me... I mean mine have (one more then one occasion) beaten characters to death while disrupting entire lines of infantry and vehicles. The T4/5++ is fairly decent for the price point, give them an instrument and some support and Its usually a decent unit (at least in my opinion)

**SilverAlien**

I think rubrics and maybe gors are both a tiny bit expensive for what they are. Tzaangors compare poorly with most demonic troop choices, could probably go down to 6ppm and be fine. Rubrics could stand to lose a point as well.

**fithos**

Maybe what games workshop should do is Bork the psychic phase (Which they have failed to implement well for three editions in a row) and go back making psychic powers basically in game abilities. Then they could split up the sorcerers into a swath of canals and justify them by their occult type. Then you could have a fast attack unit that is particularly adept at using their psychic powers in hand to hand , a different occult unit in heavy support that uses their psychic as devastating shooting, and maybe elite support psykers who have powers to buff guys around them.

That's how I used to play my thousand sons before they had a codex btw. I have a bunch of modelled up sorcerers that I used as warp talons and obliterators and such saying they were drawing all that special power from the warp. Honestly I still play that way using csm black legion for my 1001 sons because the current TSons options are very limited and determining what you are supposed to use for data sheets let alone points is a nightmare worthy of tzeentch himself.

**SilverAlien**

This is something I'm hoping to see, but suspect might not make it in this edition, exalted sorcerers with different auras based on their lore. Which would also require them to have different lores. Also for the default aura ability to maybe not be refilling invulnerable saves of 1 in an army where almost nothing have higher than a 5++ native, as that's barely going to make a difference.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

nintura wrote:
There are 3 unique Thousand Sons kits not including special characters.

Ultimately an army with 3 kits has got a lot going for it.

**hazefrog**

You long-time 40k'ers have developed Stockholm Syndrome.

All these years of GW neglect have warped your mind's.

There's nothing wrong with T-Sons players wanting a larger range.

Sort of on-topic, I'd really love to see a new Daemon prince model come out. Really each chaos god should get it's own model. The current model is so silly loooking.

**nintura**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
nintura wrote:
There are 3 unique Thousand Sons kits not including special characters.

Ultimately an army with 3 kits has got a lot going for it.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight..... It's not only just 3 kits. It's 3 Codex entries as well. 3. That's a helluva codex.

**Nightlord1987**

Reading this thread actually convinced me to just add some Las Predators to my Death Guard for anti tank. Looking forward to facing some Ksons in the future!

**nintura**

Just play armor and you'll be fine.

**Torga_DW**

I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.

As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.

**Table**

All in all I think it was fruitless to expect new 1kson kits at this moment of time. Im guessing they did not sell like the recent focus of GW's efforts which are DG. Now while it is true that DG are new faction it is very nice for DG players that GW has released so much content for the faction in recent times.

I think we may get another go once better sellers have been exploited for maximum profit. And it comes down to sales. GW is not in this for the happiness of 1kson players.

In full disclosure I have a sizeable Thousand Sons army. And im not to thrilled we got no new kits. But I was not expecting anything new. On the bright side we are getting a full codex and I asked myself many times why the AoS tzaangor models were not ported over to the 1ksons. The only thing that seems out of place is the vortex beast. Perhaps that to will grow on me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Torga_DW wrote:
I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.

As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.

I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.

**SilverAlien**

hazefrog wrote:
You long-time 40k'ers have developed Stockholm Syndrome. All these years of GW neglect have warped your mind's.

There's nothing wrong with T-Sons players wanting a larger range.

Except it's not really about wanting a larger range, it's about disliking the direction GW is going with the army as it expands the range, both for tsons and (it seems) the unique traitor legions as a whole.

Currently GW is focusing on the way the god specific traitor legions differ from their imperial equivalents and normal csm brethren, by playing up their usage of non marine elements. This means daemon engines, mutant rabble, and even daemons around a core of more elite marine units and HQs. It's an interesting idea and a departure from the previous style. Which means it is also getting pushback from some who want a more traditionally marine centric army. Personally I'm coming around on the idea myself, it is interesting and I think having such a variety makes the armies more fun.

I do think the DG codex had a better balance than the tsons codex appears to. A few more marine independent characters probably wouldn't have gone amiss. But I dont think the vision they have for tsons and the other god specific traitor legions is inherently bad, I think it'll grow on people over time.

**Torga_DW**

Table wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Torga_DW wrote:
I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.

As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.

I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.

I appreciate what you're saying. But i just had this discussion on another forum. I take the approach of the consumer: if you don't offer what i want, i don't give you money. Yes, maybe this is just 'testing the waters' for their next business venture, and success here will mean better things in the future. But i'm not a part of that. What they're offering *now*, is not something i'm prepared to spend money on. For a number of reasons, some of which apply to the army itself. Of which, primarily, the codex thousand sons has (technically) 3 thousand sons units in it. I've got a friend who throws money at every new computer game that comes out at full price, so i'm aware this is a potential customer base. But myself, i'm a little more critical of my spends. It's a bit like politics: its not the diehard core supporters you have to attract, it's the folk sitting in the middle trying to decide which way to jump. But having said that, this year seems to have been a very good year for gw.

**BrianDavion**

Torga_DW wrote:
Table wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Torga_DW wrote:
I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.

As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.

I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.

I appreciate what you're saying. But i just had this discussion on another forum. I take the approach of the consumer: if you don't offer what i want, i don't give you money. Yes, maybe this is just 'testing the waters' for their next business venture, and success here will mean better things in the future. But i'm not a part of that. What they're offering *now*, is not something i'm prepared to spend money on. For a number of reasons, some of which apply to the army itself. Of which, primarily, the codex thousand sons has (technically) 3 thousand sons units in it. I've got a friend who throws money at every new computer game that comes out at full price, so i'm aware this is a potential customer base. But myself, i'm a little more critical of my spends. It's a bit like politics: its not the diehard core supporters you have to attract, it's the folk sitting in the middle trying to decide which way to jump. But having said that, this year seems to have been a very good year for gw.

you've also got a varity of vehicles etc.

1k sons have access to in their index (and we have no reason to assume this will be changed)

Sorcrers
Exaulted sorcs,
demon princes,
rubric marines
Sacarab occult terminators
Hellbrutes (if the mutated nature of them doesn't work for you buy a space marine dreadnought)
Rhinos
Vindicators,
predators,
land raiders

and more.

they have a pretty solid armory if you wanna do a "pure chaos marine" force