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 Arachnofiend wrote:
To be fair, none of the other elite infantry choices are any good. I don't see why Rubrics would break the mold.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.

I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?

Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?

Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.

That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.

Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.

Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.

Question! Why does this smite nerf effect us that much? We can logically assume we will get 2 lores, I would imagine there will be Dark Hereticus and a "tzeentch marine" lore. Logical assertion and all, I cannot see them taking away dark hereticus from us based on previous army design conventions of 8th edition. Far as I am aware no codex has "taken away" spell lore options, only given more. (If I am wrong someone correct me but I think that's correct) So the "smite nerf" may actually not mean very much at all to us in the end, we shall find out in February!

This would lead us to logically assume that the Tzeentch lore list will also have another 6 spells. Not including weaver of fates which was a Dark Hereticus tzeentch add on. I know as of now we are in a rough spot due to needing to crutch smite and why this nerf hurts, but once we get our book we will have tons of psychic options in about a month. I really dont see them saying "oh yeah that super psychic army? same lore they always had! *plop* done!"

One thing; unless you know something we don't we cannot assume that the Tzaangor shaman will somehow be an HQ choice, in fact if Death Guard are anything to go by its a safe bet that hes an Elite slot. (could be either or, again once codex is out we can give appropriate appraisals) I would sincerely doubt that he is an HQ slot honestly.

As for army design; yeah there is definitely a shift going on, as you said horde armies DO in fact tend to do better this edition overall. But, I would say that "combined arms" will always be more effective then "ad nauseam spam a unit." So A mixture of Goats, Rubrics, Daemon Engines, Sorcerers, and Tanks will always be better then "take 60 rubrics and transports!!!" lol. As a better question; what is "enough" rubrics to make you happy in a list? like I often field 20-30 in 1500 or more, in 2k usually 30 or so. that is often enough to form a good solid core to an army in standard point values with plenty of points left over for support, tanks, goats, Daemon allies, support.

If you spam Rubrics x60 or something then you are bound to ham-string yourself as you lose the ability to handle Melee or long range AT, so yeah there are limitations (as with any unit) you cant just spam them and expect to waddle across the board and win. One reason I love the upcoming additions, I think skyfires are going to fix some major issues we have.

assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

BrianDavion wrote:
assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.

We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.

So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.

Yeah it'd be kinda annoying if they were stuck with just the one lore. At the very least I'd expect them to slap the tzneetch demon stuff in their as an option for demon princes or something.

Ahriman21 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.

We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.

So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.

I'd like to see 2 lores given to 1k sons, and the GKs to be given a second lore in a chapter approved or FAQ update or something

Ahriman21 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.

We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.

So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.

Does it shock you at this point that Eldar got a form of preferential treatment?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ahriman21 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.

We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.

So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.

Does it shock you at this point that Eldar got a form of preferential treatment?

It shouldn't. For all people rant about space marine preferance etc, It's seemed pretty clear to me someone high up at GW must have a soft spot for the craftworlds elder

"meh" is my response, I think we will end up with 2. Either way you look at it we technically have more then 1.

I'm just assuming 1 power list, mostly so that when 2 happens I can be pleasently suprised.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.

I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?

Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?

Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.

That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.

Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.

Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.

The amount of baseless assumptions made about a codex that we have almost no information about is really startling.
Take a chill pill and wait and see. Aspiring Sorcerers - for example - would be almost instantly fixed by being given access to psychic disciplines.

AegisGrimm wrote:While it seems a bit early to claim that the worst case scenario is guaranteed, and the only way to win with a Thousand Sons army is to field 100+ Tzaangors..well, I guess that's Dakka for you.

It will definitely support AoS sales figures, though! Will make it look like Tzeentch a pretty popular army when everyone is buying multiple boxes of Tzaangors.

What about my argument do you disagree with?

pismakron wrote:The premature whine is strong in this thread

What about my argument do you disagree with?

Table wrote:Im sorry, the last update I read was that the rule would enter play testing on games day. Now if they release the codex after that then you may be right. But as it stands there is no definitive drop date for the codex (i may be wrong). So with lack of evidence I have to say that you are jumping the gun here, big time. Unless you have some proof I have not read or seen. Then ill glady admit my error.

And how is the inclusion of Tzaangor models count as a revision of the army? Tzaangors have nearly always been a part of the 1ksons, now we have models to represent that, Id call it an expansion not a revision. Also, I want to take 6 land raiders and I expect to win. Sadly or happily the game does not work like that. But I think I am starting to see your problem. Last edition tzaangors were a small choice as only having one kit and you were rewarded for spamming rubrics. So people that actually bought those models and spammed them are now (maybe) at a disadvantage? This is how GW and many other business's operate, planned obsolescence is a sales tactic, and seeing as GW is a business it explains why it happens. They cannot stay in business with a bunch of one time purchasers. They need people to keep buying models. How is this important to you as a consumer? Eventually down the road they will release something you want, and for that to happen they need to stay in the black. It sucks but its the nature of the game.

Of course all of this is under the assumption that you played 1ksons last edition which im betting you did.

The last update I heard TS was coming out second half of Feb, AC in the first half.

 nintura wrote:


Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.

Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.

Guess how long people will play that army.

Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.

I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.

Ahriman21 wrote:Question! Why does this smite nerf effect us that much? We can logically assume we will get 2 lores, I would imagine there will be Dark Hereticus and a "tzeentch marine" lore. Logical assertion and all, I cannot see them taking away dark hereticus from us based on previous army design conventions of 8th edition. Far as I am aware no codex has "taken away" spell lore options, only given more. (If I am wrong someone correct me but I think that's correct) So the "smite nerf" may actually not mean very much at all to us in the end, we shall find out in February!

This would lead us to logically assume that the Tzeentch lore list will also have another 6 spells. Not including weaver of fates which was a Dark Hereticus tzeentch add on. I know as of now we are in a rough spot due to needing to crutch smite and why this nerf hurts, but once we get our book we will have tons of psychic options in about a month. I really dont see them saying "oh yeah that super psychic army? same lore they always had! *plop* done!"

One thing; unless you know something we don't we cannot assume that the Tzaangor shaman will somehow be an HQ choice, in fact if Death Guard are anything to go by its a safe bet that hes an Elite slot. (could be either or, again once codex is out we can give appropriate appraisals) I would sincerely doubt that he is an HQ slot honestly.

As for army design; yeah there is definitely a shift going on, as you said horde armies DO in fact tend to do better this edition overall. But, I would say that "combined arms" will always be more effective then "ad nauseam spam a unit." So A mixture of Goats, Rubrics, Daemon Engines, Sorcerers, and Tanks will always be better then "take 60 rubrics and transports!!!" lol. As a better question; what is "enough" rubrics to make you happy in a list? like I often field 20-30 in 1500 or more, in 2k usually 30 or so. that is often enough to form a good solid core to an army in standard point values with plenty of points left over for support, tanks, goats, Daemon allies, support.

If you spam Rubrics x60 or something then you are bound to ham-string yourself as you lose the ability to handle Melee or long range AT, so yeah there are limitations (as with any unit) you cant just spam them and expect to waddle across the board and win. One reason I love the upcoming additions, I think skyfires are going to fix some major issues we have.

I think we already have 2. Skip to the Bottom to learn more

BrianDavion wrote:assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons

Not really TS are much more Psy Focused then GK is.

Caederes wrote:The amount of baseless assumptions made about a codex that we have almost no information about is really startling.
Take a chill pill and wait and see. Aspiring Sorcerers - for example - would be almost instantly fixed by being given access to psychic disciplines.

I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1

Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.

BrianDavion wrote:I'm just assuming 1 power list, mostly so that when 2 happens I can be pleasantly surprised.

The Daemon Psyker Section says "Only TZEENTCH DAEMON PSYKERS may roll powers on this chart." depending on the god. Disk riding Sorcerers are Tzeentch Daemon Psykers.

Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.

I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.

I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.

That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.

I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.

That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.

He's thinking disgustingly resiliant I belive.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.

Not even close, though I also think you don't realize how few infantry units DG has to be effected in the first place.

No benefit: None of the new HQ and elite characters benefit, being either only melee, melee and pistol, or the one character with an autohitting flamer. Poxwalkers, possessed, and and deathshroud also do not benefit from the chapter tactic in anyway.

Situationally benefit: Plague marines, helbrutes, and cultists can benefit from it or not, depending on loadout, as all three can be given loadouts of pure melee, melee+pistol, or melee+pistols+flamers . Ditto with the generic HQs.

Always benefit: It's just Blightlords, who will always benefit to some degree.

So, ignoring the characters, that's three units that can never benefit, three units that may or may not benefit depending on loadout, and one that always will benefit somewhat. If we look at characters, most cannot benefit as the number of new characters vastly outweighs the old, and many of those generic shared HQs aren't going to be equipped with that sort of weaponry anyways.

When I said half our units that gain the CT actually benefit from it, that's exactly what I meant. It's half at best, arguably less than that.

Skyfires confirmed on facebook

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.

Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.

Guess how long people will play that army.

Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.

I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.

Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.

Anti-Tank fire.. Well Scarab, Helbrutes, Heldrakes, Defilers, Vindicators, Predators, Landraiders, Forgefiends have anti-tank and longer then 24" range fire.

And we don't know the stats on the skyfire bows as well.

 Formosa wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.

Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.

Guess how long people will play that army.

Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.

I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.

Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.

BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.

 nintura wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.

Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.

Guess how long people will play that army.

Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.

I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.

Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.

BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.

Ok, buddy. I guess rhinos are not a thing. Or warp time. Or pre-measuring and calculating odds. I guess the ONLY solution is hurr durr different guns!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.

Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.

Guess how long people will play that army.

Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.

I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.

Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.

BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.

Ok, buddy. I guess rhinos are not a thing. Or warp time. Or pre-measuring and calculating odds. I guess the ONLY solution is hurr durr different guns!

Ok sure, let's play the IF game. You get rhinos. They blow them up. Back to square one.

You get heavy weapons. They blow them up. Back to Square one..

How is this conversation even going?

As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.

If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.

The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.

Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.

Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.

If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You get heavy weapons. They blow them up. Back to Square one..

How is this conversation even going?

My heavies get to actually do decent damage to their targets. That's hard...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.

If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.

The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.

Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.

Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.

If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?

You can't compare any codex to space marines... they get everything. 40+ data sheets, dozens of models that mix and match into multiple roles.

We are getting our first 1k Sons codex... with no new actual thousand sons. Only imports.

 nintura wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.

If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.

The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.

Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.

Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.

If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?

You can't compare any codex to space marines... they get everything. 40+ data sheets, dozens of models that mix and match into multiple roles.

We are getting our first 1k Sons codex... with no new actual thousand sons. Only imports.

Because GW loves Space Marines. Because Space Marines have been a full army forever.

Thousand Sons have never been a full army until recently, and that's an army which was expanded from two units, one of which being a character. Nothing is stopping you from taking the unit which is the cornerstone of that faction - which is all you could do beforehand.

If TS are dead, then they were never alive in te first place.

Dial it down a bit please.