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nintura wrote: And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
They could have. But then you probably would not be getting to codex now. Or ever. It is about how much of their production capacity GW is willing to dedicate for a minor faction. But if you wouldn't refuse to take half of the units available to you TS would have reasonable amount of stuff.
nintura wrote: And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
It is very easy to make new units, but making new moulds for injection moulded sprues is both challenging and expensive. It can easily be £50000 pound and up for a three plate mold in precipitation-hardened steel, and those figures can only be recouperated with sizeable production volumes. GW is doing well, but they are not Lego.
They are more alive then my Emperor's Children that's for sure. I mean if you don't want the adorable bird-goats, Slaanesh will take them with open arms.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 17:47:20
For me the problem with the thousand sons is with the psychic phase.
In the 7th edition when the TS units came out we had loads of psychic powers to use in all kind of situations. We had anti-horde, anti-tank and elite killer powers.
So taking 3 rubric squads came with different "loud-outs". An aspiring or scarab sorcerer who had doombolts (str8 AP1) would try and take out tanks while sorcerer with a assault 4 str6 AP2 power would try and kill terminators.
Not saying this was working very well, due to a number of issues, but at least you had differences in your thousansd son units. I had fun playing around with all those powers so i didnt miss the plasma/melta etc weapons. Also adding more marines generally gave you more/other psychic powers to play with.
But now in the 8th edition i feel like the psychic phase has been "simplified" too much. Mainly because all offense based psychic powers are limited to dealing mortal wounds. This leads to all offense psychic powers boiling down to smite or smite with a slight twist. Anything else runs the risk of becoming too powerful vs elite armies. Which imo makes the entire psychic phase mind numbing boring for psychic heavy armies.
I can understand why people would want different weapon load outs for rubrics to gain some variation in the army now that variety in the psychic phase is non existent. (Adding a thousand sons unit (scarab or rubric) gives you more AP-2 bolters while you would like a high str/dmg weapon.)
But i also see that simply adding weapon options to rubric squads would make them similar to any other marine army. But i dont think its possible to make a army balanced army based around psychic powers right now. The system works when armies have 1 or 2 psykers but add more and you run into issues. (Mortal wounds being very good vs elite armies but not so much vs hordes, rule of one, limited psychic powers and perhaps soon smite BETA rule)
So i have no doubt GW saw this while making the codex. But shoehorning all those missing elements into the AoS ported tzaangors and telling people to go buy those if you want to play a decent TS army is kinda insulting.
Tzaangors as cheap cannon fodder for the sorcerers is fluffy to me but when TS units start dying to protect mutated goat-birds i have a issue with.
I would rather have them let go of the mortal wound only mechanic in the psychic phase and give our TS units access to real powers but i don't think this will happen. We are already halfway into the edition now and it would require them to make some pretty big changes to the psychic phase.
I think GW will just make psychic heavy armies perform below average (or force TS into tzaangors) until they maybe change in the 9th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 19:13:49
ZebioLizard2 wrote: They are more alive then my Emperor's Children that's for sure. I mean if you don't want the adorable bird-goats, Slaanesh will take them with open arms.
I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1
Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.
You completely missed my point.
This is what has been confirmed about the Thousand Sons codex so far;
1) It is an 8th Edition codex with all that entails. 2) It has a selection of new units. 3) It has the existing Thousand Sons army list.
From that, in this this thread alone you have been speaking in a factual tone and stating the following; Rubrics will suck, Scarab Occult will suck, Aspiring Sorcerers will suck, Tzaangors will comprise the majority of army lists (which is already false right now as my army already doesn't do that ), Tzaangor Shamans will be HQs (when it's equally likely they will be Elites), that armies will follow the exact same archetype, that competitive Thousand Sons will not use any or many Rubric Marines.
While stuff like this might be true now or could very well prove accurate with the codex, the fact that you're making these statements - not claims - with no factual evidence is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well. Tzaangors - or, you know, Cultists - will probably be mandatory to competitive lists based purely on how this edition functions. However, in saying that, I've been winning games with a higher ratio of Rubrics to Tzaangors against players and armies that are not at all pushovers. To say that every competitive army will automatically follow the archetype you state when you know absolutely nothing about how this codex will update units like Rubric Marines is wasting your and everyone else's time. Codex: Eldar proved that you can turn previously terrible units (Fire Prisms) into top-tier choices and invigorate an army that was previously almost entirely non-competitive to a point that they are now seen as a meta-buster.
Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
As far as what you quoted at me, you're doing exactly what I described. Assuming. I don't even get what your overall point is here but whatever So I think you're trying to say that Rubricae will get rules copy-pasted from the Grey Knights codex purely to augment our psychic abilities and that's all they'll get? Excuse me but that's laughable. Also, the Shaman is not guaranteed to be a HQ, Enlightened and Skyfires are explicitly NOT wizards/psykers in Age of Sigmar so I have no idea why you'd make that claim. Basically, your entire post is guesswork and you're presenting it as evidence to support your tonally factual claims. No thanks.
The point is; we don't know enough to accurately say anything at this point, especially seeing as we have no idea what the legion trait of all things will be. These problems we all know could and probably will still be around, but your approach to the situation by automatically proclaiming that the worst is reality when you have no legitimate evidence to base that on makes me question your intent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/14 21:06:22
I'd like to see us get Chaos Familiar as a Stratagem, or a separate option to pay to upgrade the Rubrics sorcerer into an actually psyker worth a damn. Either way, if we can differentiate our squads according to their psychic power, that'd be something. I think, whilst this thread is helping me deal with waiting for the codex to drop, we do need to chill a bit and see what awaits us, before rushing to judge, condemn or defend the Sons. Fingers crossed they got the attention from the writers that the faction deserves.
Oh and tzaangors are okay in my book, but the new pink horrors are amazing. I ran a deepstrike 20-horror unit last night with a flickering flame herald & DP in support - they executed 8 beserkers on the spot when they warped in. Sweeeet.
Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
Caederes wrote: Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?
Spoiler:
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: [spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
I can answer those questions.
Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.
Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.
As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.
It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Caederes wrote: Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
More like
6th Ed: 1 thousand sons unit, Ahirman
7th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, exalted sorcerers, so 2 Thousand sons units, 2 special characters and TSon sculpts for a unit we have always had, but welcome none the less!
8th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, Exalted Sorcerers, so same number of thousand sons units as 7th, still lack thousand sons heavies, fast attack (not sure how they would fit here).
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/15 00:04:28
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/15 00:53:50
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1
Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.
You completely missed my point.
This is what has been confirmed about the Thousand Sons codex so far;
1) It is an 8th Edition codex with all that entails. 2) It has a selection of new units. 3) It has the existing Thousand Sons army list.
From that, in this this thread alone you have been speaking in a factual tone and stating the following; Rubrics will suck, Scarab Occult will suck, Aspiring Sorcerers will suck, Tzaangors will comprise the majority of army lists (which is already false right now as my army already doesn't do that ), Tzaangor Shamans will be HQs (when it's equally likely they will be Elites), that armies will follow the exact same archetype, that competitive Thousand Sons will not use any or many Rubric Marines.
While stuff like this might be true now or could very well prove accurate with the codex, the fact that you're making these statements - not claims - with no factual evidence is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well. Tzaangors - or, you know, Cultists - will probably be mandatory to competitive lists based purely on how this edition functions. However, in saying that, I've been winning games with a higher ratio of Rubrics to Tzaangors against players and armies that are not at all pushovers. To say that every competitive army will automatically follow the archetype you state when you know absolutely nothing about how this codex will update units like Rubric Marines is wasting your and everyone else's time. Codex: Eldar proved that you can turn previously terrible units (Fire Prisms) into top-tier choices and invigorate an army that was previously almost entirely non-competitive to a point that they are now seen as a meta-buster.
Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
As far as what you quoted at me, you're doing exactly what I described. Assuming. I don't even get what your overall point is here but whatever So I think you're trying to say that Rubricae will get rules copy-pasted from the Grey Knights codex purely to augment our psychic abilities and that's all they'll get? Excuse me but that's laughable. Also, the Shaman is not guaranteed to be a HQ, Enlightened and Skyfires are explicitly NOT wizards/psykers in Age of Sigmar so I have no idea why you'd make that claim. Basically, your entire post is guesswork and you're presenting it as evidence to support your tonally factual claims. No thanks.
The point is; we don't know enough to accurately say anything at this point, especially seeing as we have no idea what the legion trait of all things will be. These problems we all know could and probably will still be around, but your approach to the situation by automatically proclaiming that the worst is reality when you have no legitimate evidence to base that on makes me question your intent.
1.) We know way more then that as of right now 3 Tzaangor units are being added, Skyfires, Enlightened, and Shaman, plus the Mutalith which will probably do the same thing it does in AoS which is create spawns while doing mortal wounds and Reduce LD of enemy units.
2.) I'm saying after the codex drops these changes will occur so your fine until then
3.) We don't know enough...
Here is what I know...
Games workshop is a business, and they are trying to make money
They make money by selling models
They sell models by making them worth buying
People buy models they don't already have
Changes to smite are "going to be tested"
Conclusion, smite changes go through Rubrics become ineffective in large numbers of small units, and really only work as large blocks of 10-20 models. Now there is a reason to buy more efficient models, what models do we have, Tzaangors 3 different units NEW to the army after this Codex drops.
Problems Tzaangors currently have are Ld kinda low and susceptible to morale losses, little to no range capabilities, no transports for 20+ squads, slightly expensive for horde armies, no heavy hitters
Solutions; Make Shamans add/Mitigate LD/ morale losses and cast spells, Add Skyfires to give ranged options, have Enlightened for heavy hits (probably on the charge) add psyker abilities, Mutalith will function as a screen to give Tzaangors time to move into combat and create new models (more spawn).
But lets assume they do some changes if they reduce the points cost your not getting the ability to cast spells other then mini smite, and your going to be wasting points on having a Psyker that can't Psyk. If you do get the ability to cast spells then your not getting a points drop and still risk blowing yourself up.
That means reduce the number of Psykers from Rubric Squads as much as possible, no matter what.
Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
One does not preclude the other, I've said I like tzaangors repeatedly but also want more thousand sons units, units that by all rights should already be there.
And yes I disagree that rubrics can't use plasma weapons etc. They can fight in close combat, change mags etc. So changing a fire mode or changing a missile requires no less thought than anything else they have been shown to do, the only reason that sekmets don't have the option for combi weapons is that they were not modeled with the option, the same reason that cataphractii don't have them and can only take a heavy Flamer, it's that stupid policy again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/15 02:12:31
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
On the other hand, the TS just got a huge pile of brand new models (most of which are 'thousand sons marines') just about 15 months ago. Given the current limits on model production, expecting even more seems unreasonable. Particularly in the middle of the codex rush, where most armies aren't getting anything at all, and even special snowflake marines are effectively getting shoulder pads and a lieutenant.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
On the other hand, the TS just got a huge pile of brand new models (most of which are 'thousand sons marines') just about 15 months ago. Given the current limits on model production, expecting even more seems unreasonable. Particularly in the middle of the codex rush, where most armies aren't getting anything at all, and even special snowflake marines are effectively getting shoulder pads and a lieutenant.
Nooooo for crying out loud, I have to repeatedly say this, OPTIONS MAN, I am not asking for new models, I am asking for OPTIONS, give Tsons rubric heavy support units and special weapon squads, the models are already there we just need the codex entry.
It really is that simple and it's all I want... well that and for the codex to at least explain how they replenish numbers and recruit, fill in the gaps so to speak.
nintura wrote:And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
Yes. Even if they don't have direct models available. Allow for conversions. But no models = no rules.
Crimson wrote:
They could have. But then you probably would not be getting to codex now. Or ever. It is about how much of their production capacity GW is willing to dedicate for a minor faction. But if you wouldn't refuse to take half of the units available to you TS would have reasonable amount of stuff.
So.... people get to pay full price for something that's half-baked at best? Yay?
Caederes wrote: Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well.
A 'semi-elite' army like eldar..... What goes for eldar, is that they're all specialists. For their points, a unit does what it does and it does it extremely well. It doesn't pay +5 points per model for +1 ws. *that's* what makes a 'semi-elite' army like eldar so effective. That and developer love. I've got nothing against eldar per se, but i can't help but note that they've had consistently good rules compared to other armies since i've been playing (back in 1st edition).
Caederes wrote:Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
You're saying the 1ksons might be as competitive as the new primaris marines? With a few hypothetical changes? I'm not going to insert sarcasm here, but the urge is strong. *breathes in deep* I'm just going to quote this, and move on.
AegisGrimm wrote:*Sigh* This entire thread is so circular.......
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
It's going to be universal, therefore people shouldn't be upset? What i take from this as a thousand sons fan, is that death guard got screwed. But we can look forwards to 2 new factions that'll be equally shafted? But i do agree - it just is what it is. I don't for a second think that's right, but as you say, it just is what it is.
SilverAlien wrote:Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
So.... you think the tzaangors will get 'all is dust'? Or are you saying that units in the 1ksons *codex* will get the rules needed to field them from that codex and have a battleforged compliant army? The former is just a no, the latter is: oh god, i'm tripping balls. Tzaangors will *never* be 1ksons marine units. They can add dwarves from AoS to the codex at this point, they won't be 1ksons units. Which is a problem if you like 1ksons.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
What's wrong with that? For the prices people are paying, i think they have the right to be "seething mad". They get *terminators*? Ho ho, i'm laughing here more than you can realise. But yeah it is what it is. Welcome to GW. Hello world eaters and emperor's children fans - bend over, and be prepared to pay through the nose for the experience you're about to get.
Formosa wrote:Nooooo for crying out loud, I have to repeatedly say this, OPTIONS MAN, I am not asking for new models, I am asking for OPTIONS, give Tsons rubric heavy support units and special weapon squads, the models are already there we just need the codex entry.
It really is that simple and it's all I want... well that and for the codex to at least explain how they replenish numbers and recruit, fill in the gaps so to speak.
And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.
Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
Galas wrote: But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
I sit comfortably in phase 0. I'd like to get to phase 1, but i need some sort of incentive for that. The sort of incentive only the devs (gw) can provide. Otherwise i have better ways to spend my time/money.
I do think that alot of people here are not quite on the same page in regards to the Thousand Sons.
Seems like half are excited and think it will be cool and the other half have already thrown out the army as trash tier before getting a single codex leak.
Also as for one more thing:
Torga_Dw, I dont know about these mythical "competitive Primaris" lists you are talking about. I have never had any trouble with my Thousand Sons with the INDEX against a codex army of Primaris space marines. They are truly unimpressive.
Unless your taking Guilliman which is a totally different dynamic due to his ability to hide.
If the Rubrics get a discount (which I can see happening logically asserting points drop as per all other books) we can assume a rubric being 17-19 after bolter in our book. I would imagine 18 to be exact even with a Intercessor.
That + Strategems + Legion Tactic + Warlord trait + any spell buffs we will get + Aura effects.....we will be fine. Rubrics should be fairly dangerous with all of these benefits stacking. I would imagine as far as "marines" in 8th edition go (which are to be fair mediocre in most circumstances mathematically) they will be the top of that pile, or near to it.
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
Galas wrote: But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
I sit comfortably in phase 0. I'd like to get to phase 1, but i need some sort of incentive for that. The sort of incentive only the devs (gw) can provide. Otherwise i have better ways to spend my time/money.
I understand the disappointment. I don't understand why people is disappointed after ALL the previous evidence in 8th edition about how the Codex Releases work for 90% of the Codex's. Is like something having a 5% chance to ocurr, and with all previous data pointing the contrary, people still want to believe that it is gonna happen. And with it doesn't, they get angry and upset and dissapointed. Why are you doing this to yourself?
And I don't know whats phase 0. I was talking about the Kübler-Ross model.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
7th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, exalted sorcerers, so 2 Thousand sons units, 2 special characters and TSon sculpts for a unit we have always had, but welcome none the less!
8th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, Exalted Sorcerers, so same number of thousand sons units as 7th, still lack thousand sons heavies, fast attack (not sure how they would fit here).
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
Oh lord. Tzaangors are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, in the Index, literally have the "Thousand Sons" keyword. What codex do you see Tzaangor units popping up in after Thousand Sons considering every possible codex they could have been in has already been released? They are units exclusive to Thousand Sons. They are units that no other army gets. As someone else said, I'll take your bet. You'll owe me big time when all is said and done.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
1.) We know way more then that as of right now 3 Tzaangor units are being added, Skyfires, Enlightened, and Shaman, plus the Mutalith which will probably do the same thing it does in AoS which is create spawns while doing mortal wounds and Reduce LD of enemy units.
2.) I'm saying after the codex drops these changes will occur so your fine until then
3.) We don't know enough...
Here is what I know...
Games workshop is a business, and they are trying to make money
They make money by selling models
They sell models by making them worth buying
People buy models they don't already have
Changes to smite are "going to be tested"
Conclusion, smite changes go through Rubrics become ineffective in large numbers of small units, and really only work as large blocks of 10-20 models. Now there is a reason to buy more efficient models, what models do we have, Tzaangors 3 different units NEW to the army after this Codex drops.
Problems Tzaangors currently have are Ld kinda low and susceptible to morale losses, little to no range capabilities, no transports for 20+ squads, slightly expensive for horde armies, no heavy hitters
Solutions; Make Shamans add/Mitigate LD/ morale losses and cast spells, Add Skyfires to give ranged options, have Enlightened for heavy hits (probably on the charge) add psyker abilities, Mutalith will function as a screen to give Tzaangors time to move into combat and create new models (more spawn).
But lets assume they do some changes if they reduce the points cost your not getting the ability to cast spells other then mini smite, and your going to be wasting points on having a Psyker that can't Psyk. If you do get the ability to cast spells then your not getting a points drop and still risk blowing yourself up.
That means reduce the number of Psykers from Rubric Squads as much as possible, no matter what.
Ummm......do you lack reading comprehension skills? Because the three things I said we know for sure about the Thousand Sons codex are what you literally just wrote to me despite you also saying "we know way more than that". For goodness sake, why do I even bother!?
Again, how the hell do you know these changes you alone are stating as fact are anything more than your own baseless claims? We know NOTHING about the rule changes this codex will offer, yet here you are saying "this will be the case", "this unit will suck", etc when you have zero authority on the matter. Like any codex, the Index versions could very well be a bare imitation of the eventual "real thing".
Oh god, this logic.....history has proven the "new model, make it broken" theory has holes in it. Look at the Maleceptor. Look at the Scarab Occult. Look at Inceptors. Look at the Slaughterbrute. There are dozens of units that have been garbage upon their introduction to the game, only to either be left in a bad state or fixed later (Inceptors in particular have been redeemed from their original incarnation). It's not a great indicator of anything, as Tyranid players in particular will tell you.
The Smite changes could be nullified on the part of Rubrics with the addition of spell lores to the Aspiring Sorcerers' repertoire, it's what kept them semi-relevant in 7th Edition and in 8th Edition it could help them out big time by at least giving them something decent to cast every turn. If Thousand Sons get two spell lores as some have predicted, Ahriman, Magnus and one or two Exalted/regular Sorcerers won't be enough to cast all those powers plus the full Smites themselves, giving Aspiring and Scarab Occult Sorcerers some added utility. But hey, let's just assume the absolute worst and treat it like gospel, eh?
You want to know what's funny about your logic with GW trying to force us to buy, in your words, "more efficient models"? Said models do not fill the same roles that Rubrics/Scarab Occult/Exalteds/Magnus/Ahriman/etc fill. Rubrics are elite infantry, Tzaangors are fodder infantry. Different roles that can complement each other if both units are balanced right, which is the hope with the new codex. Enlightened are likely to be dedicated melee specialists, Skyfires are likely to be dedicated shooting, but Scarab Occult are the middle-ground that's good at both. Different roles. Tzaangor Shamans, if you look at their AOS rules, won't be as gifted as Ahriman and likely will be a lesser psyker than even a regular Sorcerer, but will be balanced by their mobility and probable Tzaangor-specific buffs, whereas Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers are powerful psykers with buffs that are universal to Thousand Sons. Different roles. The Mutalith is a big beast but, based on what we know from AOS and can reasonably assume, it won't be a power-house like Magnus, but probably something more in line with either the Tyranid Malaceptor or Tyranid Carnifexes; Magnus is a psychic beat-stick, whereas the Mutalith will probably fit the good old "distraction Carnifex" mold. Different roles. You don't know for certain that points efficiency will dictate the necessitated usage of the Tzaangor units over the Thousand Sons units, especially as the differing roles of each individual unit gives them a special place in any given list, yet you proclaim it like fact and that's honestly pathetic.
Skyfires aren't there to "give Tzaangors more shooting", they are there to give Thousand Sons players a mobile ranged unit in their own codex that may or may not have sniper capabilities. Shamans being there to buff Tzaangor units does not exclude the codex from making changes to Exalted Sorcerers to provide a specific buff to Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult. The Mutalith Vortex Beast isn't there to "function as a screen to give Tzaangors time", it's there to give Thousand Sons an extra monster to play around with that can take fire from the rest of the army, i.e. your elite Rubrics, Magnus, etc. The amount of wilful ignorance you are spouting on this forum is beyond the realm of absurd
Again, how do you know that they won't make net positive adjustments to Rubric Marines? I am beyond sick of this attitude, so I'm going to spell it out for you so you can understand;
You. Do. Not. Know. For. A. Fact. That. The. Changes. You. Think. Will. Happen. Will. Actually. Happen. As. You. Have. No. Proof. To. Back. Up. Any. Of. Your. Claims.
Cheers
Torga_DW wrote:
A 'semi-elite' army like eldar..... What goes for eldar, is that they're all specialists. For their points, a unit does what it does and it does it extremely well. It doesn't pay +5 points per model for +1 ws. *that's* what makes a 'semi-elite' army like eldar so effective. That and developer love. I've got nothing against eldar per se, but i can't help but note that they've had consistently good rules compared to other armies since i've been playing (back in 1st edition).
You're saying the 1ksons might be as competitive as the new primaris marines? With a few hypothetical changes? I'm not going to insert sarcasm here, but the urge is strong. *breathes in deep* I'm just going to quote this, and move on.
Plague Marines are proof that you don't need to be a specialist to be competitive, so I'll leave that one aside. Being specialists does not automatically make a unit competitive per your logic. Eldar specialists were non-competitive in the Index, until massive points reductions and rules tweaks drastically improved the lot of pretty much the entire codex. Your logic is flawed, straight out of the gate. Any unit can be good if it has the right points cost and workable rules. Rubric Marines are functionally a tough infantry unit with decent shooting, fixing the few issues they have isn't hard.
No, that's not what I was saying and thank you for taking my words completely out of context I was replying to a person that outright stated elite armies suck in 8th Edition. I offered an obvious counter-point; elite armies can succeed in 8th Edition, as evidenced by Primaris and Eldar. The archetypal competitive list of 8th Edition is cheap screening units surrounding/protecting the real heavy hitters. Rubric Marines aren't necessarily heavy hitters but if they get some needed improvements they can fill the role they're intended to fill; offering a surprisingly decent firebase that is very difficult to shift from an objective.
Seriously, this thread is really making me question my faith in the Warhammer community. Jesus Christ. The amount of whining about information we don't have and assuming the absolute worst with no basis in fact is driving me insane.
