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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.

An ability through an artifact is not an ability explicitly owned by rubrics. You can say rubrics are now "as good" as terminators, but then omit that terminators can deepstrike and then redeploy, which is even more useful.

LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.

Yes, there is more CC variety and on the other side SoT have more heavy options.

If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.

We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.

Err, no? I did the math above. Tzaangors are both simultaneously wrap and good in combat.

A dreadnought swinging at 4++ tzaangors kills 1.11 (7.7 points) and 6++ cultists it kills 1.85 (7.4 points). There is no way a dreadnought is tearing through Tzaangors in 3 turns, because it is in no way anti-horde. In fact a Tzaangor does 0.22 wounds and a cultist 0.07 to a dreadnought making the Tzaangor just as good at taking hits and three times better at dealing damage for less than double the cost.

I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

the_scotsman wrote:
I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

Any berzerker alpha is going to charge the cultists and the units behind it and requires a more thoughtful deployment. It's a risk you take at list building for a small number of lists you might face like it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

Any berzerker alpha is going to charge the cultists and the units behind it and requires a more thoughtful deployment. It's a risk you take at list building for a small number of lists you might face like it.

Doubt it. The cultists will die to a stiff breeze, but not in the movement phase. I can have up to 18" between my conga line of cultists and my Tsons gunline and still block deep strike. The best they can do after butchering my cultists is 6" of movement (3" consolidate, then 3" pile for the second attack, but they don't get to swing so no second consolidate).

Plus, bezerker melee alpha is scarcely the only alpha strike out there where I would find a solid bubble useful. They keep me out of plasma double tap range, they keep me safe from bloodletter bomb, gsc, tyranids, saint celestine if I deploy correctly...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.

An ability through an artifact is not an ability explicitly owned by rubrics. You can say rubrics are now "as good" as terminators, but then omit that terminators can deepstrike and then redeploy, which is even more useful.

LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.

Yes, there is more CC variety and on the other side SoT have more heavy options.

If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.

We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.

Err, no? I did the math above. Tzaangors are both simultaneously wrap and good in combat.

A dreadnought swinging at 4++ tzaangors kills 1.11 (7.7 points) and 6++ cultists it kills 1.85 (7.4 points). There is no way a dreadnought is tearing through Tzaangors in 3 turns, because it is in no way anti-horde. In fact a Tzaangor does 0.22 wounds and a cultist 0.07 to a dreadnought making the Tzaangor just as good at taking hits and three times better at dealing damage for less than double the cost.

There 6++ now they were 5++ with WoF.

I'm looking at the Index right now and the Aura of Dark Glory ability is a 5+ invuln.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm looking at the Index right now and the Aura of Dark Glory ability is a 5+ invuln.

What's this referring to?

Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

So serious question here, what's the benefit of taking a ten man rubric over 5 man occult squad? It seems like all around the occult are better and fill the same role as the rubric. Occult pay a little bit more, like 15 points but then gain a hellfire missle rack, better armor, power swords, and deep strike. All while still haveing spells, all is dust, a soul reaper, 10 wounds, and the same number of inferno bolters shots.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So serious question here, what's the benefit of taking a ten man rubric over 5 man occult squad? It seems like all around the occult are better and fill the same role as the rubric. Occult pay a little bit more, like 15 points but then gain a hellfire missle rack, better armor, power swords, and deep strike. All while still haveing spells, all is dust, a soul reaper, 10 wounds, and the same number of inferno bolters shots.

its because they are multi wound models, so shooting multi damage weapons at them becomes perfect.

12 OC PR shots (assuming MEQ with Reroll 1s) will kill 5 Rubrics, same exact thing will kill 5 SOT.

pay 2x the points for essentially the same exact durability when it comes to effective fire.

Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

Checked FAQ and codex.

It only says to replace sentence 3, which now limits the save to a 3++
Sentence 4 is where it grants a 5++ to a unit with no invuln

So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

Until we get our claws on the Codex at that point, SOT pull ahead, by a lot.

Glamour is going to put them head and shoulders above Rubrics, especially when it comes to being able to take advantage of cover and LOS.

Its looking like 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors 2 10 man squads of Tzaangors, 2 Rhinos to get them to the where they need to be, 1 Shaman on a Disc, 10 Man SOT squad, and 1 Caster (Magnus/Ahriman) to get off the important spells. that is only 1250 points. Gives you solid anti-horde, some anti-tank, lots of anti elite, with maybe some anti air, depending on strats.

30 man squad gets dropped in first, SOT DS in just behind them, Tzaangors in Rhinos shore up the Tzaangor line where needed, Ahriman casts Prescience and Weaver of Fates on the SOT making them a turret, then Throws out a smite or something, SOT smite, Shaman smites. 1CP spent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

the Static durable gunline army is dead.

How exactly does glamor effect SOT different than rubrics though?

 BoomWolf wrote:
How exactly does glamor effect SOT different than rubrics though?

Mostly because the footprint. Being able to take max advantage of the spell means you want max squad size, 10 models in cover is doable, 20 not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 backlash13 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

Checked FAQ and codex.

It only says to replace sentence 3, which now limits the save to a 3++
Sentence 4 is where it grants a 5++ to a unit with no invuln

Okay good, that's how I have been playing it anyway. Not sure why it needed to be put in the max 3++ has always been a thing.

If its true you arent paying the premium for the sorcerer, (as said in the other thread by a gent) and then you end up with the strategem AND spell access.... SOT are looking mighty nice right about now.

And bare in mind there *was* a rumor regarding their save becoming an innate 4++ (easier to give out better saves when the re-roll 1's invul aura is gone)

Ahriman21 wrote:
If its true you arent paying the premium for the sorcerer, (as said in the other thread by a gent) and then you end up with the strategem AND spell access.... SOT are looking mighty nice right about now.

And bare in mind there *was* a rumor regarding their save becoming an innate 4++ (easier to give out better saves when the re-roll 1's invul aura is gone)

Well, All is Dust gets them to a 4++ against D1. I doubt they'll go 4++ with a chance for 3++.

Why not?
How many things are D1 and have AP better than 2 anyway?
Non-overcharge plasma, "rending" attacks, anything else?

It won't come up all that often. and having 4++ base would make them much more viable (as the same guns you want to cancel out AiD also take down their two wounds)

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

Until we get our claws on the Codex at that point, SOT pull ahead, by a lot.

Glamour is going to put them head and shoulders above Rubrics, especially when it comes to being able to take advantage of cover and LOS.

Its looking like 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors 2 10 man squads of Tzaangors, 2 Rhinos to get them to the where they need to be, 1 Shaman on a Disc, 10 Man SOT squad, and 1 Caster (Magnus/Ahriman) to get off the important spells. that is only 1250 points. Gives you solid anti-horde, some anti-tank, lots of anti elite, with maybe some anti air, depending on strats.

30 man squad gets dropped in first, SOT DS in just behind them, Tzaangors in Rhinos shore up the Tzaangor line where needed, Ahriman casts Prescience and Weaver of Fates on the SOT making them a turret, then Throws out a smite or something, SOT smite, Shaman smites. 1CP spent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

the Static durable gunline army is dead.

So, this is the dreaded Tzaangor Only Meta you're worried about seeing. 10 man tzaangor squads in rhinos and 10 man SOT squads forcing out rubrics?

I'd like a couple things explained to me here.

1) How is 70 points of tzaangors worth protecting with nearly 100 points of rhino? How would 2 5-man rubric squads (with discount priced, full power slinging sorcerors and cheaper soulreaper cannons) sharing the one rhino not be superior cheap troop choices here? Tzaangor blobs are incredibly effective because of their sheer max unit size, ability to deep strike and alpha strike the whole enemy line or screen, and ability to get all the thousand sons buffs. 10 man tzaangor squads in a rhino are essentially as optimized and effective as ork trukk boyz.

2) Scarab occults, barring other changes, will be an exceptional unit..how exactly? The way I see it unless they get some kind of increase in combat effectiveness they'll remain crazy overpriced. You know a 10 man squad is still going to be about 500 points even with the sorceror and soulreaper price reduction, yeah? THey'll put out a ton of shots and kill stuff effectively, but not 500 points of stuff, there's just not enough you can remove with a block of 40 S4 AP-2 D1 shots.

The sorceror price reduction and soulreaper reduction are OK for scarabs, but the minimum price and troop slot for rubrics still makes them better for a similar role. A minimum squad with soulreaper is down to 115 (or maybe 120, hikaru seemed unsure) points. You can take two of those, filling you two troop slots vs 1 elite slot, for the price of a 5-man SOT squad with a rocket.

Unless we see more buffs I don't see SOT being usable. I can't say the same for rubrics. IMO the breakdown of troop units you'll see for Tsons will be:

10 man cultist squad: CPs, deep strike zoning, bare minimum cheapest troop squad you can get.
5 man rubric squad with reaper: psychic support, anti-elite. Use it to make sure that the easier to cast workhorse powers have casts and backups in case important psykers die. Something like Temporal Distortion doesn't sound like it's good enough value to take on someone like Ahriman but you still want it - bring rubrics and get more CPs to spend to boot.
maxed out Tzaangor squad: The mighty mighty blob. Can either deep strike and multi-assault the enemy frontline in the matchup vs a gunline, or deploy as a screen to protect the body of the army in the matchup vs melee alpha.

The other Tzaangor units you'll most likely see the most of in the situation where you want a Brigade. Shamans fill elite slots better than helbrutes or SOT, because I'm guessing they'll be cheaper than a helbrute, 70-80 points if they're a full fledged psyker with mobility and character rule. Skyfires might edge out solo spawns to fill your fast attack slots, because while they're 18 points more expensive for a minimum unit, they're more likely to be useful to you especially if you have a bunch of shamans running around.

lol Chaos Brigade.

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

the_scotsman wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

IDK, that seems really light to me. I guess you've got 15 CP to toss around so it ends up being worth it.

I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

SilverAlien wrote:
I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

This army sounds cool af. Make it happen!

 andysonic1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

IDK, that seems really light to me. I guess you've got 15 CP to toss around so it ends up being worth it.

12CP? I mean, you could certainly change it up. Those 30 tzaangors are 210 points that you could turn into a second 40-point cultist unit, that'd let you swap a shaman for a SOT squad if you felt you were light on anti-elite stuff, but if you've got CPs to throw around I do like Tzaangors as a TAC flexible choice. The preds similarly could shave 20 points by turning into one or more mutaliths, but my philosophy has always been to have a solid chunk of upfront anti-tank in any more elite list, because you'll usually get the first turn and you should use it to blast something big off the board. Since we are getting the stratagems that make them useful as well as a new to-hit aura on ahriman, you could find some points to swap a pred for a Forgefiend, similar role but scales better with CPs. Daemonforge+Blasphemous is a pretty good use of 2cp when you get the first turn and want to put the hurt on something.

You have 13 powers to throw around, unfortunately no Daemon power list, but with 24" range smites you've got the bandwidth to get the powers you need and some extra mortal wounds to spare. If you do go the route of ditching the tzaangors for some cultists, you can upgrade a sorc to a wingprince, but I really like the tzaangors as an optional alpha to tie up/murder a guard screen in that matchup and as a more durable second layer screen vs melee alpha lists.

 AaronWilson wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

This army sounds cool af. Make it happen!

If money weren't an issue I would, but with only 20 gors, ahriman, and the sorcerers already purchased, it'd be a while before I could afford to field that. I might try it with daemon engines (maulerfiends probably) for HS and some cultists supplementing the normal gors, then I'm only looking at buying some skyfires and shamans which is a bit easier on the wallet.

Also, can i just say I am only now appreciating what a value my cultists have been over the years. Including this they will have been a staple in five separate army lists: CSM, DG, R&H, cults and militias, and now tsons.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, this is the dreaded Tzaangor Only Meta you're worried about seeing. 10 man Tzaangor squads in rhinos and 10 man SOT squads forcing out rubrics?

I'd like a couple things explained to me here.

That's with the information we have right now and that's also having 250-750 points to spend

the_scotsman wrote:
1) How is 70 points of Tzaangors worth protecting with nearly 100 points of rhino? How would 2 5-man rubric squads (with discount priced, full power slinging sorcerors and cheaper soulreaper cannons) sharing the one rhino not be superior cheap troop choices here? Tzaangor blobs are incredibly effective because of their sheer max unit size, ability to deep strike and alpha strike the whole enemy line or screen, and ability to get all the thousand sons buffs. 10 man Tzaangor squads in a rhino are essentially as optimized and effective as ork trukk boyz.

2 Rubric squads with a Rhino costs 286 with no upgrades, 10 Tzaangors in a Rhino cost 142 slightly under half, so there is nothing cheap about 2 min Rubric squads in the Rhino. Next, up is the why do that. Tzaangors are relatively cheap and vulnerable to small arms fire. So assuming you have the 30 man squad on the table, the opponent is going to focus fire that with all AP- weaponry, okay so now they enemy has anti-tank weapons what do they shoot at the Rubrics or the Rhino? They shoot at the Rubrics and they are letting MORE melee crap into their line, If they focus the Rhino then they slow down the Tzaangors maybe kill a few and the Rubrics get at least 2 turns of shooting at full strength. Neither situation is what the enemy wants, but you already know how they will decide, or at least you should. They will shoot at the more threatening unit what ever that may be, which depends on the army. The alternative is having the Rubrics in the Rhino and the Tzaangors on foot. Doing this means there is no real decision to be made, anti tank weapons hit the Rhino and if it blows up you Risk losing 20+ point models depending on what is in there. But, now to add to your woes your opponent rolled well when attacking the 30 man Tzaangor squad, and has a few squads left to fire, good thing those Tzaangors are in the open and not in a Rhino otherwise they would only be left, with shooting a T 7 3++ vehicle or a T 4 2+ infantry unit, neither really allows them to take advantage of good rolls.

So to recap, putting the Tzaangors in Rhinos allows them to get to the fight quicker, reduces losses to small arms fire, forces the enemy to split limited fire between multiple durable units, and limits your opponents ability to take advantage of good rolls.

the_scotsman wrote:
2) Scarab occults, barring other changes, will be an exceptional unit..how exactly? The way I see it unless they get some kind of increase in combat effectiveness they'll remain crazy overpriced. You know a 10 man squad is still going to be about 500 points even with the sorceror and soulreaper price reduction, yeah? They'll put out a ton of shots and kill stuff effectively, but not 500 points of stuff, there's just not enough you can remove with a block of 40 S4 AP-2 D1 shots.

Building on the above, that putting Rubrics in Rhinos is a bad idea, we can move on to the next question. Is it better to put SOT on the table, or Rubric Marines? Given we have a limited number of CP and can only cast spells a single time to get maximum effect from these resources we want to use them on maxed out squads. Maxed out Rubrics have 20 man squads while SOT will have 10, SOT have 9 LD compared to Rubrics 8 LD. Right here we have run into problems already, Rubrics have 2x the models which means cover becomes difficult if at all possible, SOT with their 10 models can definitely benefit from cover. The differences in LD are profound if I lose 8 models from the Rubric squad I can't stop myself from losing models unless I use CP, which we have precious little of even with min squads of RM. In fact if you lose 12 models your in serious danger of losing the entire squad, and again with 20 models you wont be able to benefit from cover so AP-2 weaponry becomes a real threat, plasma doesn't have to be OC to have a real effect (this is important because of Glamour). Meanwhile, SOT still have a 2+ armor save vs -2 AP weaponry while in cover, and with out an OC plasma gun they do less then 1 wound per turn with WoF. Even with all the same buffs to Rubrics you still have to worry about AP -2 weaponry and losing more then 4 models on any given turn.

the_scotsman wrote:
The sorceror price reduction and soulreaper reduction are OK for scarabs, but the minimum price and troop slot for rubrics still makes them better for a similar role. A minimum squad with soulreaper is down to 115 (or maybe 120, hikaru seemed unsure) points. You can take two of those, filling you two troop slots vs 1 elite slot, for the price of a 5-man SOT squad with a rocket.

Its worse then OK its maybe 11 points total, but Glamour makes them worth it due to a massive increase in durability they gain. CSM RM are 120 right now with a soul reaper. If you like running that then I would suggest running AL or IW.

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless we see more buffs I don't see SOT being usable. I can't say the same for rubrics.

Its not about the unit itself getting a buff, it's about increased affects from new buffs we get.

the_scotsman wrote:
10 man cultist squad: CPs, deep strike zoning, bare minimum cheapest troop squad you can get.
5 man rubric squad with reaper: psychic support, anti-elite. Use it to make sure that the easier to cast workhorse powers have casts and backups in case important psykers die. Something like Temporal Distortion doesn't sound like it's good enough value to take on someone like Ahriman but you still want it - bring rubrics and get more CPs to spend to boot.
maxed out Tzaangor squad: The mighty mighty blob. Can either deep strike and multi-assault the enemy frontline in the matchup vs a gunline, or deploy as a screen to protect the body of the army in the matchup vs melee alpha.

Temporal Distortion is amazing if you know where to apply it. Anything that already regens wounds is going to benefit massively from that. Helbrutes will also gain a lot since it can net you extra turns with them, and they don't degrade.

the_scotsman wrote:
The other Tzaangor units you'll most likely see the most of in the situation where you want a Brigade. Shamans fill elite slots better than helbrutes or SOT, because I'm guessing they'll be cheaper than a helbrute, 70-80 points if they're a full fledged psyker with mobility and character rule. Skyfires might edge out solo spawns to fill your fast attack slots, because while they're 18 points more expensive for a minimum unit, they're more likely to be useful to you especially if you have a bunch of shamans running around.

No shamans have a +1 to hit aura for Tzaangors which means your going to see them in damn near every army.

Right now the best way to run an Army is to have 1 or 2 max squads to benefit from, and a bunch of min squads to draw fire to keep the the maxed out squads at full strength.

I have to agree on the Brigade point, our Rubricae are just too expensive to run in a brigade.

1) 2 rubric squads in one rhino costing approximately twice 1 tzaangor squad in a rhino is fine by me because the rubrics are actually worthwhile when deployed in a rhino. You're paying the same price per troop squad, which is actually a good deal less points than the price per maximum sized tzaangor squad, in my eyes our other useful troop (but if you're going for CPs, our least efficient). I don't consider rhino tzaangors worthwhile at all for the same reason ork players don't consider trukk boyz worthwhile: You pay for a transport that doesn't give them any kind of turn 1 threat, and you pay more than the cost of the squad. You give up large blob bonuses, and you give up once-per buffs on them like stratagems and psychic powers. Its exactly the same scenario with tzaangors, and its why 30 boyz on foot are a great unit, and 12 boyz in a trukk are a terrible one. Rubrics in a rhino are a psychic support/midrange shooting unit, they don't need to be right in the enemys teeth turn 1. They can get out of their rhino and probably be capable of shooting something at 24" and casting their psychic power. If the rhino dies, big deal, you're not losing either aspiring sorceror or soulreaper cannon, which is largely the point of the squad. Tzaangors in a huge blob will *never* take significant anti infantry fire because against any opponent with that, say a guard army with 150 lasguns? They're in deep strike, and I'm goign to drop them, warptime them in, buff the bejezus out of them and watch them shred the chaff. I don't need a shaman for them, because they get 2+ to hit over 20 models naturally. And if I set my army up that way, I'm not paying an extra 80something points per tzaangor squad to give them useless metal boxes. 240 points of rubrics is worth a rhino, more than worth, and if my opponent dedicates anti tank fire to it early, more the better because it means they're not shooting my predators, Magnus, forgefiend, or whatever other anti tank fire magnet I have.

2) I just now pointed out a brigade to demonstrate that we can really easily fill one thanks to our now cheaper elite slots and already super cheap fast slots. We may be even in better shape if it turns out that the 51pt bow squad pays a lot of points for those bows - we know they also get a chainsword/autopistol option which will be either 1 point or free. If those guys are within or close to the 33 point mark of their competition, solo spawns, then they'll make MUCH better cheap wildcard units to fill those fast slots and a brigade will be even more viable. I made a brigade with 5/6 of my troop choices being rubrics and a maxed out tzaangor blob, and I had Ahriman on a Disc as one of my HQs - its very doable. If you don't like it though, 2x battalions is also comparatively cheap, and a daemon battalion is even cheaper with 30pt brimstone squads. I've made up three likely army builds featuring 1 brigade, 2 battalions, and 3 battalions (one daemons), to ensure that I have enough CPs to use all the stratagems I want.

3) Shamans are useful to a limited extent only because basic Tzaangors already get their buff when theyre over 20 models. They are almost certainly going to be the cheapest Elites option, meaning they'll be highly worthwhile in a brigade (especially considering you'll probably bring 3 skyfire squads for FA as well, who will need the buff) but for non-brigade lists, unless you bring skyfires I'm kind of "meh" on them. They're essentially a one-power sorceror on jump pack with no deep strike, no 3+ armor save for roughly 40 points less assuming they're 85 points including the force staff. Their buff is good on skyfires, but rarely that useful for tzaangors if you're fielding them how they should be fielded. I can definitely see them in a Brigade where you need elites, but HQ is a much better slot in every other instance.

My 3-battalion and 2-battalion lists so far contain only one Tzaangor squad, max size. My brigade list has that and 3 shamans, *maybe* 9 skyfires if it turns out the autopistol/chainsword option makes them price competitive with solo spawns. In all instances I'm fielding over double the amount of points in rubrics and sorcerors, and I don't think swapping out more of those with more Tzaangors would be a good decision strategically. Numbers wise, yes, I am fielding more tzaangors than Rubrics, because they cost a great deal less. if tzaangors didnt exist, I'd field more cultists than rubrics. That's just smart list building, if you don't include cheap screeners/zoners, you're in trouble in 8th. Ask a SM player who doesn't play Scouts how they usually do.

Is this the Tzaangorpocalypse that was foretold? I don't think so, the list is a couple hundred points of a tzaangor screen/optional alpha bomb and 1650-1750 points of durable psyker heavy gunline. That's Thousand Sons, how they've always operated.