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Also 3 unknown warlord traits and multiple unknown relics.

Possible second half of legion tactic (something supposedly helping cultists be useful? Theoretical possible that it let's you sacrifice chaff to avoid perils) .

And the fact every single TS unique unit may have new rules we don't know of.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also 3 unknown warlord traits and multiple unknown relics.

Possible second half of legion tactic (something supposedly helping cultists be useful? Theoretical possible that it let's you sacrifice chaff to avoid perils) .

And the fact every single TS unique unit may have new rules we don't know of.

With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

High warp charge cost is probably a balancing factor.

Every list at 1500-2000 I have written since I got more information (Majority of dex) has had around 12+ casts in a turn.

Ahriman, Exalted, Sorcerers x2, squad leaders x2-3. so 11-13 casts a bloody turn; we will be fine even with a 40% failure rate. cool your jets.

rubrics and scarab occult are going to rule, Scarab Occult especially now that we basically have a self-sufficient death star at ten with 4 guns. Not sure what the hell else you want. lol. Ill be spamming rubrics and SOT for dang sure. (well 3-4 or so units most games)

Dandelion wrote:
1) "Admech is fully fleshed out" - Not according to Admech players, who all desperately want a transport, either a rhino or any one of the myriad 30k ones. Maybe you just can't tell because they never made a thread called "Admech is dead..."

I'm not on the up and up on Ad mech, but I would say being able to deliver a 10 man CC squad, which gets a 3++ after wiping out a unit for the rest of the game is a bit OP.

Dandelion wrote:
2) What new Guard did I want? Rough Riders. Instead they took those out of the codex. THEY TOOK A UNIT AWAY! A unit that I am particularly fond of. I also would have liked any of the metal regiments to be done in plastic. It would have only taken 3 kits to do so. Much like how you were complaining that GW was too lazy to throw in a kit or two.

Yeah because taking away a Gurad unit is taking away 1.5% of what you have available while taking 1 unit away from TS would be 25%. Almost the same thing.

Dandelion wrote:
3) You know what army was seriously lacking? Custodes. They only had 3 unit entries and no HQ. Does that mean you think GW was correct in giving them new units?

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Dandelion wrote:
4) You're assumption is that every possible current and future TS player has more Rubrics than they need. Which is absurd. Yes, GW wants current TS players to keep buying stuff. They couldn't fit in any new models so they ported some over. That does not mean that they'll never sell Rubrics again, which means that Rubrics will not be left to rot.

And I never said they would never sell any Rubrics. If your going to strawman my argument then please be less obvious.

Dandelion wrote:
5) I still play my Tau strike teams in games even though drones are more efficient, because it's the way I want to play.

And...Tau infantry are a staple of the army.

Dandelion wrote:
The reason people think you are overreacting is because EVERYONE is in the same boat as you. People wanted things and didn't get them. So move on. Relax. Take a break from the hobby if you have to. TS will be what GW makes them. But at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors.

Which still doesn't prove me wrong, it proves me MORE right. If what your saying is true then this site is quite possibly the biggest example of learned helplessness on the planet.

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

When did I say no Tzaangors? Please direct link the post.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

I dont agree with the OP but I think you are on the wrong track here.

And to the OP. Look, the codex is what it is. You have the option to provide feedback once it has landed. Anything before is wasted effort, and that is what most of us are trying to tell you but you just wont listen. You can still field your army from 7th. Nothing is invalidated. And you state you are worried how competitive they are? Ive got news for you. They never were competitive outside of Magnus + DP spam. And to my knowledge that list had zero rubrics as well and used cheap tzaangies to provide troop reqs. So nothing has changed for the worse, and has changed for the better for many players who now have more options. Infact, rubrics got better in this edition. If you are worried about perils then you are playing the wrong faction my friend. Its going to happen and it will suck. Most likely what will change for the worse is that MSU rubrics are now not a good idea due to the risk of perils.

All in all, you do have points. Sure I wish we got more power armor models. But we did not. Nothing you say or do will change that fact. If you have to eat a #### sandwich, its best to try to enjoy it. Because either way, bon appetit!

 Sasori wrote:


With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

Doombolt is ridiculously good though.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

Doombolt is ridiculously good though.

What this guy said!

Yeah its a high-cast value....put it on Ahriman and use Cabalistic Ritual, getting +3 to the cast, so its a what? 6+ to cast? it may as well remove a unit from the game for assault purposes, so any assault-oriented units will be incredibly slow, or any units needing to move at all. Added bonus is that it targets the model. so you can "snipe" with it. It HAD to be high cast value to balance it in our list.

Thats probably why statistically they had to be on the "lighter" side of hitting (60% ish) chance of most spells work, if they all worked and we have 12+ spells to throw.....I can forsee most lists having trouble dealing with us as of this moment right now, Imagine if that stat was higher. It would be totally unfair in every respect to most other armies barring perhaps eldar.

Especially with our range boost.
Doombolt as a 7 cost, or even as an 8 could invalidate entire army lists.

Remember, you PICK spells right before deployment. each spell you have that's a silver bullet answer is a powerhouse because you will always have it when you need it, and never when you don't.

Especially in an army like ours is shaping to be where you can have every single silver bullet you want. if we could assure we kick them all off easily, we would be broken.


We got 18 spells to pick from. 18.
Some are always good to have.
Some depends on your own list rather than the enemy.
But some just brutalize a opponent that happens to be susceptible to them.

For example, doombolt can completely shut down a melee doomstar (or a melee superheavy) on its own by just making them absurdly slow, and it does that from a rather large distance.
The high number of targeted MW spells can break apart a combo that relies on a hidden character.
Infernal gateway utterly shatters a formation of densly-packed MSU units.
Treason of tzeentch is insanly hard to pull off, but can annihilate character-driven forces from within

All these spells HAVE to be difficult to pull off, because you only take them when they matter-there are enough "always useful" fillers, and when they matter they are incredible.

Don't forget Death Hex, which I pulled off on Mortarion in my last game, that can just obliterate certain units.

To add on to your point, take a look at Eldar. Two psychic disciplines, 12 powers (not counting Harlequins and Ynnari). Only 2 of those 12 powers deal mortal wounds. Contrast this to Thousand Sons. Three psychic disciplines, 18 powers (and yes I'm counting the Daemon one because Magnus and Daemon Princes can access them) 5 of those 18 powers deal mortal wounds. The Smite nerf was to cut down on mortal wound spam from super efficient psykers, Thousand Sons can bypass it somewhat with 5 separate damage spells. Add Smite in to the mix with potential casting bonuses from models like Magnus and Ahriman and you're also reliably looking at two-three successful Smites a turn. You could make a case that the high casting values are a way to restrict how many mortal wounds you can dish out, especially as we can mega-buff our units' damage output with psychic/stratagem/Mutalith buffs. On top of that, all our damage spells get an extra 6" range, meaning denying them is a lot harder for our opponents should we wish it, and also that we can start casting damage spells earlier in the game than normal. Perils is the main concern, so we'll see what type of Perils mitigation exists outside of Magnus. If it's just Magnus, that's another matter entirely.

Doombolt can be a game-winning spell if you get it off on the right unit, but yeah, the casting value demands you burn Command Points/Magnus/Ahriman to get it off. The other super important note about our damage spells and their high casting values is that most of them can choose which unit they target unlike Smite, if the casting values were too low combined with our +6 to power ranges, characters wouldn't stand a chance in hell against Thousand Sons armies.

So the Mutalith Vortex Beast buffs are basically Canticles of the Omnissiah for TS. Pick one you want or Roll and you get 2 random buffs

 The Sentinel wrote:
So the Mutalith Vortex Beast buffs are basically Canticles of the Omnissiah for TS. Pick one you want or Roll and you get 2 random buffs

Except better!

Oh yes I agree. Much better options. Also the Tzaangor Enlightened get the auto wound on to hits of 6+ no matter what weapons they use. Buff them with a nearby Shaman and it’s 5+!!!

Spawn with reroll on number of attacks, pick +2 attacks, and give them an extra -1.

6.5 S5 AP3 D2 attacks for 33 points. Instead of -1 you can give them +1S versus IG or T3.

So much flexibility and choice. It's bonkers.

Hello there. I am sorry to have found this thread so late, i don't have many time to read throught all the forum and in particular i didn't read all the 26 pages of this thread, sorry.

I'm glad that from the posts i've read it seems that more people share my concerns and my opinion. It seems in other threads of Dakkadakka that "Happiness is mandatory" and all other opinions that are not to praise GW and the Codexes are "wrong" opinions.


I fully agree with the OP and others posts, many people have told many reason why the thread title is right, much better than anything i could write (and my english is not good).

So with all that in mind, please let me express my opinion.

I am very very disappointed, i am almost depressed, sad and disheartened about this Codex. Thousand Sons as the army that was and i loved is indeed dead. The bad (or good) thing about it, it's that i'm finding myself disliking more and more of the current 40k, perhaps for me it is 40k what is dead, the lore, background and game that i loved does not exist anymore...

But on topic... So why is that? Why the TS are dead?

As i said, many people has explained much better than me, but basically, the main point is that: this is NOT a Thousand Sons codex. This is something else. This is a "Disciples of Tzeentch" Codex, a "Tzeentch Servants" or a "Tzeentch Great Circus of Freaks" codex. This codex is not representing properly the TS legion as it is in the 40k universe. It is a random soup of Tzeentch monstrousities and things. I dislike it. I would have loved a proper TS codex. Hell, i was waiting for a proper TS codex since i started to play 20 years ago. But instead we got... this.

And the sad and disappointing part for me is that the codex it's called "Codex: Thousand Sons", but then you check the unit list and the rules and one finds that the main units and the most benefited of the codex are tzaangors and beasts. So one finds that the "good" army lists will have mainly tzaangors and beasts and of course the damn primarch. The actual and real THOUSAND SONS units that are in the codex, the few of them, are overcosted and basically just worse options compared to the goats...

Of course all comes from the lazy and plain stupid GW design policy of "no models- no rules"... GW launched 2 infantry kits for Thousand Sons, 1 character kit, 1 named character and the primarch, Magnus. Adding to that they launched some lazy dual kit for fantasy and just throwed them in the TS list. Tzaangors as a marginal auxiliary unit in a TS army was ok-ish, as long as they remained that way... The problem is that the selection of units was not enough to fill a codex, unless GW should had a little bit of imagination. Unfortunately, GW in these last years just doesn't know the meaning of the word "imagination", and they came up with the laziest and dullest option: Grabbing random monsters and beastmen from fantasy and slapping them in the TS codex just like that...

The proper solution would had been actually releasing some more kits for the actual Thousand Sons. Just remember, the DG release had 18 new kits (plus the miniatures in the starter box of Dark Imperium), the TS had only 6 (and that is counting the semi-fantasy goats), and it seems that for GW, they are not complete according to the lazy DG codex (units copy-pasted from the index without new rules or options or some flavour to make them part of the DG army). So maybe is not a so wrong idea to consider that GW maybe should had released some more kits?

But what is more. Even if one thinks that the Thousand Sons have now all the miniatures that they will ever need (...), with the current plastic kits it would had been possible to make a MUCH more interesting and varied Thousand Sons Codex:

- Rubric marines kit - From this kit they could had done 3 different units: the unit of Rubrics with bolters, a unit of Rubrics all with flamers and a unit of "heavy support" rubrics, with multiple soulreaper cannons...
- Scarab Occult terminators kit - From this kit they could had done till 4 different units: the SOT unit, a exalted sorcerer or sorcerer in terminator armour, and with some conversions maybe a unit of terminator sorcerers
- Exalted sorcerers kit - With this kit GW has proved that they lack imagination and they are just plain lazy. Besides the HQ exalted sorcerer, it could be used to build regular sorcerers, a unit of "lesser sorcerers" (i would have loved something like that), a unit of sorcerers riding discs of tzeentch, etc, etc... I just came with 4 different unit ideas from one single kit. Apparently with many more people and time and resources, GW is unable to do anything similar... How?

And with only 3 plastic kits they could had done 11 different units to fill different roles in the Thousand Sons codex... How? Well, that is where you can use the HH background of the TS and give the sorcerer of each squad a different power or selection of powers to adjust their role in the game... Then you could have some more specialized rules or wargear "invisible" options to make each unit different. And if we count with conversions, they could had added some flavourized vehicles, like sorcerer dreads, rubric dreads, warp flaming predators, etc...

But no.

Apparently all that is too much work and money. Their solution: They just take 3 kits from FANTASY (as far as i remember, this has not ever been done before)... Just think about it please. What about if when GW launched a new army, instead of having a complete and unique and proper range of miniatures for that faction, GW would just add some old (or new, it doesn't matter) fantasy kits to the army and call it "new units". What if when GW launched the Adeptus Mechanicus, instead of having 2 ways of assembling their basic infantry, GW would had just added 2 units of fantasy imperial infantry? Or for Tau, what if GW instead of releasing a huge battlesuit for them, they would had just added a STEGADON for their army?
Do you really would like that? Do you really think that it would "fit" the 40k army? Or that they would had been a lazy and random effortless move by GW to avoid any form of thinking and working in the writing of the codex?

Just no. I really dislike what i'm seeing. Is lazyness and lack of imagination and lack of consistency with past material and background... It boggles my mind. The last iteration of the Thousand Sons army, as far as i know, was the 2nd chaos space marines codex of the 3rd edition. There was a "THOUSAND SONS ARMY" section with very clear options to make a Thousand Sons army. GW should have simply followed those guidelines. Take all the unit options from there and expand from it with the later HH background... It was sooo easy. They didn't need to release any new model, they could had done it simply giving different army list entries and rules to different ways of building the models... Is... Is just sad for me, really really disappointing and sad...

I just simply cannot understand why GW has made this gak instead.

Side note, after seeing the vortex beast leaks ummmm man, if you run tzeentch anything you are gonna want one if not two of those things.

Look, I get that you guys wanted more Marine units, and that you have a very limited roster but GW couldn't give you new units now because they were maxed out on new releases. TS have some of the newest kits GW makes, which means you guys are a low priority. Heck, Eldar have ancient models and they still weren't a priority.

It's the same thing with Admech. They merged Skitarii and Mechanicus into one codex to make up for the limited rosters. They could have made a Skitarii HQ but they didn't. Skitarii are no longer playable solo as a result. Solo Skitarii are actually dead. (BTW, Skitarri are actually a sub-category of Admech, much like Rubrics in TS)

At least Rubrics are legal without Tzaangors. And GW had no plans to expand TS with fresh new models. Remember, the schedule was probably planned when TS were getting their new kits. Instead, they decided to throw you a bone with existing models. Would you have preferred no new models at all, or Tzaangor rules? I personally would take the latter.

Just try to roll with what you have and hope for the best. If you really like Rubrics, there's nothing stopping you from ignoring the new Tzaangor models. And if it turns out that Rubrics are indeed terrible, then you have my condolences.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Which still doesn't prove me wrong, it proves me MORE right. If what your saying is true then this site is quite possibly the biggest example of learned helplessness on the planet.

It's not just this site. The words "battered wife syndrome" and "stockholme syndrome" get thrown around, and i don't think they're that far off. But like the man himself said, something along the lines of: what we do is sell toy soldiers at a profit to customers who are grateful for the privilege. They really have found their niche.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Which still doesn't prove me wrong, it proves me MORE right. If what your saying is true then this site is quite possibly the biggest example of learned helplessness on the planet.

It's not just this site. The words "battered wife syndrome" and "stockholme syndrome" get thrown around, and i don't think they're that far off. But like the man himself said, something along the lines of: what we do is sell toy soldiers at a profit to customers who are grateful for the privilege. They really have found their niche.

I don't see how that statement proves stockholm syndrome. We are entirely at the mercy of GW's design team. Short of joining the team or the board, we have little to no control over their decisions. If you are truly upset, then stop buying their stuff. If their decisions are bad, then make them pay for it. They will adapt or die. This whole thread has probably gone unnoticed by GW which makes any complaints herein a waste of time. Just look at their facebook, all the complaints are rebuffed or ignored by the community team. Even if they took OP's advice, we would not see the results for at least a year. Suggesting that going along with it is "learned helplessness" implies we can actually do something about their releases, but we can't.

If you end up buying Tzaangors because you need them to be competitive and not because you like them, then you have let yourself be played. Or, you could vote with your wallet. Nothing else will change GW's plans.

Dandelion wrote:
I don't see how that statement proves stockholm syndrome. We are entirely at the mercy of GW's design team. Short of joining the team or the board, we have little to no control over their decisions. If you are truly upset, then stop buying their stuff.

I did. But many of the people who complain still buy. You're right, no question about it. Hence the battered wife and stockholm. -> I don't like this at any level but i'll still give them money in the hopes that they will change. I still remember some genius came up with a sisters of battle protest where the idea was everyone in the world would start buying metal sisters continuously. You can't make this stuff up!

edit: quotes
edit2: formatting

This codex is not representing properly the TS legion as it is in the 40k universe. It is a random soup of Tzeentch monstrousities and things. I dislike it. I would have loved a proper TS codex. Hell, i was waiting for a proper TS codex since i started to play 20 years ago. But instead we got... this.

So you didn't read about how the Tsons, before beastmen got squatted for a bit used entire armies of Tzaangors to basically make up the mainstay of their armies.

Essentially, lore triumphed and things were gained that actually make Tsons more like how they were originally designed.

Also seriously.. Battered wife syndrome? It's a gaming company for godsakes.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Which still doesn't prove me wrong, it proves me MORE right. If what your saying is true then this site is quite possibly the biggest example of learned helplessness on the planet.

It's not just this site. The words "battered wife syndrome" and "stockholme syndrome" get thrown around, and i don't think they're that far off. But like the man himself said, something along the lines of: what we do is sell toy soldiers at a profit to customers who are grateful for the privilege. They really have found their niche.

Nice way to invalidate people with thoughts different than your own. Must be nice on that hill.

Edit : I took your post wrong. Very sorry for the snark.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This codex is not representing properly the TS legion as it is in the 40k universe. It is a random soup of Tzeentch monstrousities and things. I dislike it. I would have loved a proper TS codex. Hell, i was waiting for a proper TS codex since i started to play 20 years ago. But instead we got... this.

So you didn't read about how the Tsons, before beastmen got squatted for a bit used entire armies of Tzaangors to basically make up the mainstay of their armies.

Essentially, lore triumphed and things were gained that actually make Tsons more like how they were originally designed.

Also seriously.. Battered wife syndrome? It's a gaming company for godsakes.

I have to agree here, the whining here is on an insane level. The fact that people are throwing these terms out with a gaming company that makes models is absolutely disgusting, and you should be ashamed.


There is nothing in the codex forcing you to run Tzaangors. You are free to run a Sorcerer and Rubric heavy list, with some of the vehicles available right now. Or you can run it with Daemons, which is also very fluffy. Thousand Sons are not dead, and the ridiculous hyperbole being exhibited by a few posters here is insane.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I don't see how that statement proves stockholm syndrome. We are entirely at the mercy of GW's design team. Short of joining the team or the board, we have little to no control over their decisions. If you are truly upset, then stop buying their stuff.

I did. But many of the people who complain still buy. You're right, no question about it. Hence the battered wife and stockholm. -> I don't like this at any level but i'll still give them money in the hopes that they will change. I still remember some genius came up with a sisters of battle protest where the idea was everyone in the world would start buying metal sisters continuously. You can't make this stuff up!

edit: quotes
edit2: formatting

Well, hopefully more people follow your example. I'm personally being very selective with my purchases. For example, I'm not going to buy metal/resin kits even if I want the unit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This codex is not representing properly the TS legion as it is in the 40k universe. It is a random soup of Tzeentch monstrousities and things. I dislike it. I would have loved a proper TS codex. Hell, i was waiting for a proper TS codex since i started to play 20 years ago. But instead we got... this.

So you didn't read about how the Tsons, before beastmen got squatted for a bit used entire armies of Tzaangors to basically make up the mainstay of their armies.

Essentially, lore triumphed and things were gained that actually make Tsons more like how they were originally designed.

Also seriously.. Battered wife syndrome? It's a gaming company for godsakes.

how the lore REALLY triumphed: "well thousand sons got screwed over in the lore. i think we should screw over t-sons players via not releasing any new kits. it will help immerse them into the 40k experience." -GW Design team.

Why does the Mutalith have to be such an ugly model....

Yes apparently. Introducing new models, even if from another setting that thematically fits your army is screwing you over. New options? Who cares about all that! Because it didn't fit your exact ideal of what you wanted and thus Tsons are dead, dead, dead. Those that disagree apparently are battered wives and those with Stockholm syndrome.. Seriously, the amount of crud coming from this topic is phenomenal.

Seriously, there's a ton of you coming out of the lurker woodwork under 100 posts, it's sort of strange to see.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes apparently. Introducing new models, even if from another setting that thematically fits your army is screwing you over. New options? Who cares about all that! Because it didn't fit your exact ideal of what you wanted and thus Tsons are dead, dead, dead. Those that disagree apparently are battered wives and those with Stockholm syndrome.. Seriously, the amount of crud coming from this topic is phenomenal.

Seriously, there's a ton of you coming out of the lurker woodwork under 100 posts, it's sort of strange to see.

Yeah and most agree with you.

Its funny how so many disagree with it but on the other threads people are talking about their army lists and none of them include rubrics. And now the nerf to reapers lol. Someone actually asked why take rubrics and termies.