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 Chamberlain wrote:
Per capita is not enough. You need the people within so many kilometres from the store. The population density matters. You simply can't cover the same number of people in the US with the same number of stores as in the UK.

Per store is far more reliable of an indicator.

I agree, t an extent, but we're apparently discussing per capita.

That and I'd speculate the population density of the locations GW US has stores in are going to comfortably balance out the store density of GW UK. London is roughly as populous as New York, for instance, at around 8m and then the U.K. doesn't really have another city that comes close, Birmingham is apparently the second most populous at 1m.

So you've got all those other big US cities with stores, compared to my local GW in a town of around 60K.

I think holding it to per capita because a word was used incorrectly is a bit uncharitable.

I'm not actually sure the people covered do equal out. I think it's pretty much impossible for the coverage of the US with GW stores to be equivalent to the UK stores, even if there were multiples of the current number in the US.

 Chamberlain wrote:
I think holding it to per capita because a word was used incorrectly is a bit uncharitable.

Given how he's outright insulted me on this board recently, hes unlikely to receive too much charity from this particular quarter. Trying to use language you don't fully understand to try and exaggerate the authority of your post doesn't really deserve much either.

I'm not actually sure the people covered do equal out. I think it's pretty much impossible for the coverage of the US with GW stores to be equivalent to the UK stores, even if there were multiples of the current number in the US.

Having actually checked the figures now, rather than take Grotsnik at his word. There were 100 US stores vs 148 UK stores at the close of business 2017. So basically the U.K. has about 30% more stores and took about 30% more money. So, within a spit, they're making a similar amount of money per store, and doing worse by any other metric, and that's on the basis of what he meant, not what he said.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You say laughable, but I’ve only provided personal anecdotes.

Pardon me. I meant laughable here, where I live. Let me put it another way: In my entire state, there were only 6 GW shops. Of those, the two with the highest street presence (one of which was the regional battle bunker) permanently closed down several years ago. Those that remain have pitiful hours of business (none, AFAIK, open before noon and all close at 8pm or earlier, and every single one is closed Monday-Tuesday) and are located in what would be generous to call "the outskirts" of major metropolitan areas.

The idea that GW would not survive without these 4 tiny, barely open shops - that they could not possibly be profitable or recruit new customers if they had to rely on LGS presence alone - is fairly humorous to hear for someone in my neck of the woods. When you said, "They're Here to Stay", I actually had a little chuckle as I recalled driving by workers washing off the faded remnant of the battle bunker's sign as they finished the paint on the new PetCo.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Having actually checked the figures now, rather than take Grotsnik at his word. There were 100 US stores vs 148 UK stores at the close of business 2017. So basically the U.K. has about 30% more stores and took about 30% more money. So, within a spit, they're making a similar amount of money per store, and doing worse by any other metric, and that's on the basis of what he meant, not what he said.

A friend of mine used to say that if GW ever figured out how to make retail work in the US as good as it does in the UK, they'd make loads of money. Getting the stores to the same performance level per store is huge. If it's something they can actually duplicate going forward, then they may have a lot of potential in the US going forward.

I don't think it's going to be crazy though as there are just only so many places in the US that have enough people within a reasonable distance of a particular location. Can they double their locations in North America and keep up this same money per store? I have no idea.

Would prices be better overall if GW wasn't retailing as much? I don't know. For Canada, it's been the path not taken for 20 years now. For the UK, even longer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't it right in GW's latest investor report that their own stores are the least efficient in terms of making money? That pretty much any other way of selling product makes them more money after all the costs are accounted for?

Yeah, it's on page 2.

Trade sales £48.0m operating profit: £13.5 which as a percentage is a bit over 28%

Mail order (their website) sales £21.3m operating profit £13.6m, percentage: just under 64%

Retail sales £39.6m operating profit: £1.8m. As a percentage: 4.5%

That's not wonderful. The other two numbers are, but that last one...

Yeah, but are the stores driving mail order sales? Let's face it, the stores are advertising/promotion that manages to scrape out a small profit, but would the mail order and trade sales be as high without them?

Edit: more to the point, given the stores are barely profitable, it would support the pricing regime - the prices are there to make the stores marginally profitable, and they won't drop mail order prices to compete with their own stores.

GW seems to believe that the stores do the recruiting. I have no reason to doubt them as continuing them and expanding them when they are the least efficient way to sell things makes no sense if GW is not getting some larger benefit from having them.

Hi folks.
My point is because GW does not focus on quality game play to drive interest and long term sales.It has very poor word of mouth marketing.(Comparatively.)

If you look at the history of GW , it simply carried on thinking it was stuck in 1992.And the internet was ''..a passing fad...'
There was a period of time when GW could have moved to compete in the open market of war gaming.But that was long ago.

I am not saying GW can simply drop its chain of B&M stores now.

But that it is this chain of stores that is responsible for GW pricing.If all of a sudden you do not need to find an extra £50M + every year.The need to price gouge sort of drops off...

 Chamberlain wrote:
GW seems to believe that the stores do the recruiting. I have no reason to doubt them as continuing them and expanding them when they are the least efficient way to sell things makes no sense if GW is not getting some larger benefit from having them.

I think the stores help GW sell the "idea" of gaming. I think GW knows that most people buy models with the plan to game but never (or rarely) actually play a game with the armies they buy. So the stores are helping sell the illusion of gaming which makes some folks more likely to buy stuff.

Whether or not it still works, who knows. It'd take a proper market analysis for which we don't have the information. GW probably has the numbers in house to evaluate the quality of their stores (e.g. do sales go up in a town after a store opens, even if the sales are through the store itself?).

 Xca|iber wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You say laughable, but I’ve only provided personal anecdotes.

Pardon me. I meant laughable here, where I live. Let me put it another way: In my entire state, there were only 6 GW shops. Of those, the two with the highest street presence (one of which was the regional battle bunker) permanently closed down several years ago. Those that remain have pitiful hours of business (none, AFAIK, open before noon and all close at 8pm or earlier, and every single one is closed Monday-Tuesday) and are located in what would be generous to call "the outskirts" of major metropolitan areas.

The idea that GW would not survive without these 4 tiny, barely open shops - that they could not possibly be profitable or recruit new customers if they had to rely on LGS presence alone - is fairly humorous to hear for someone in my neck of the woods. When you said, "They're Here to Stay", I actually had a little chuckle as I recalled driving by workers washing off the faded remnant of the battle bunker's sign as they finished the paint on the new PetCo.

US demographics don't suit GW's business model, certainly, which is why there's a higher plurality of wargames/miniature games in the US (that's anecdotal btw and is just my impression. I think with regards to the US, GW doesn't quite know what to do.

And the idea isn't that GW wouldn't survive, it's that these shops are intrinsic to GW's monolithic market dominance. As you point out, short opening hours prevent adults from playing, which is one reason why I play at my LFGS (open til 10, used to be open until we finished) and not my local GW. Their LGSs' main role is not to make up the bulk of the profit - they're there for recruitment and as a place kids can play, paint, and create a community, which drives sales downstream. I'm not arguing this has not worked out as well in the US, but it has worked elsewhere.

 John Prins wrote:
Yeah, but are the stores driving mail order sales? Let's face it, the stores are advertising/promotion that manages to scrape out a small profit, but would the mail order and trade sales be as high without them?

Edit: more to the point, given the stores are barely profitable, it would support the pricing regime - the prices are there to make the stores marginally profitable, and they won't drop mail order prices to compete with their own stores.

that the webstore makes any money at all, besides exclusive models, is mildly surprising, given the majority of online retailers are usually 10-20% cheaper, I can understand buying at a B&M GW store to support it, but thats some hella potent brand loyalty voodoo for it to apply online

 Turnip Jedi wrote:


that the webstore makes any money at all, besides exclusive models, is mildly surprising, given the majority of online retailers are usually 10-20% cheaper, I can understand buying at a B&M GW store to support it, but thats some hella potent brand loyalty voodoo for it to apply online

For some time Element and Firestorm are severely cut when it comes to range availability. Take a look on their Age of Sigmar items - most old stuff, though not labeled as web store only, is still not available. And these items are not even "waiting for stock"- they are just branded as out of stock with the manufacturer. This has forced my hand on buying from their official store.

wasn't aware of that, been running on minimal GW purchases for a while now, any info or rumours as to why ?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
wasn't aware of that, been running on minimal GW purchases for a while now, any info or rumours as to why ?

I have no idea. All I know is that all the new ranges like stormcast, kharadron, fyreslayers etc are always on stock and you can order anything from the range (99% sure from memory) while other kits that aren't even older ones, cast in metal or resin can't be bought anymore from both element and firestorm (and even wayland as I casually stroll through their site). These kits aren't branded as webstore only yet you have no other choice...

Putting aside the obvious and easy accusation that they're manipulating their customers into buying direct to realise the most profit, GW are apparently suffering legitimate capacity issues at the moment.

Having worked in an industry where my suppliers were also my competition, take it from me it is in no way unusual for a company with limited stocks on hand to prioritse its own channels over third parties.

If once we see in a financial report that they've addressed those issues (not guaranteed, but we won't see it anywhere else, and it is the sort of thing you'd want to reassure your investors you've sorted) and the problem persists, then the more nefarious reason may also become the most likely.

Mad doc must have a thumping hangover. Hes not been back in here

 ChazSexington wrote:
US demographics don't suit GW's business model, certainly, which is why there's a higher plurality of wargames/miniature games in the US (that's anecdotal btw and is just my impression. I think with regards to the US, GW doesn't quite know what to do.

And the idea isn't that GW wouldn't survive, it's that these shops are intrinsic to GW's monolithic market dominance. As you point out, short opening hours prevent adults from playing, which is one reason why I play at my LFGS (open til 10, used to be open until we finished) and not my local GW. Their LGSs' main role is not to make up the bulk of the profit - they're there for recruitment and as a place kids can play, paint, and create a community, which drives sales downstream. I'm not arguing this has not worked out as well in the US, but it has worked elsewhere.

In the US, the overwhelming majority of GW gaming is in basements and garages, or at schools, not in the store. Unlike the UK, we are a country with lots of space.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

that the webstore makes any money at all, besides exclusive models, is mildly surprising, given the majority of online retailers are usually 10-20% cheaper, I can understand buying at a B&M GW store to support it, but thats some hella potent brand loyalty voodoo for it to apply online

Availability issues would be my guess. It's hit or miss ordering from webstores if they don't keep their inventory up to date (or even if they do). GW generally has what they say they do.

One of the guys in my weekly group buys everything through GW's web store. He buys it and 3 days later he has it. The other reason he gave is that 15% off but pay shipping from a reseller is often more than no discount but free shipping.

As much as I despise most of their games, the one I do actually like (lotr/hobbit) I can only get through mail order, which is cheaper to do at home than bother driving to their broom closet to have to hear how I should buy primaris garbage when all I want is a damn gundabad warband.

 Chamberlain wrote:
One of the guys in my weekly group buys everything through GW's web store. He buys it and 3 days later he has it. The other reason he gave is that 15% off but pay shipping from a reseller is often more than no discount but free shipping.

Maybe a Canadian thing, but there's a whiff of justification about that, as pretty much every major (and most not so major) online seller offers free shipping as well as a discount. There's usually a minimum spend, but there is with GW.com too.

Here's some more 'perspective' on GW's insane prices.

AoS Tzaangor Box = AUD$70
40K Tzaangor Box w/10 Autopistols/Chainswords = AUD$77
Tzaangor Upgrade Sprue w/5 Autopistols/Chainswords = AUD$20

Explain that.

The cost of the upgrade sprue, or the fact that the 40K box isn't $90?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
One of the guys in my weekly group buys everything through GW's web store. He buys it and 3 days later he has it. The other reason he gave is that 15% off but pay shipping from a reseller is often more than no discount but free shipping.

Maybe a Canadian thing, but there's a whiff of justification about that, as pretty much every major (and most not so major) online seller offers free shipping as well as a discount. There's usually a minimum spend, but there is with GW.com too.

Thunder games is $13.50 flat shipping, free on $150. Meeplemart is $10 flat shipping, free on $200. I'm sure there are others, but they tend to be like that. Main issue I think is availability/stock levels. The pricing does sound like justification because $80 is free shipping from GW. So there's probably only a small range where it actually makes sense to go with GW. Although there is something to be said for a courier getting it to you in 3 days every time.

eBay is my go to source. Buying on the sprue from UK sellers means I basically get access to their pricing despite any GW mandated embargo and shipping is reasonable. It takes about 10-15 business days most times. I'm fine with that. Other people in my gaming group aren't.

I have very rarely bought from GW's website, but the couple times I have it was because of availability, not hitting the price threshold to get free shipping from the local online discounters and web exclusive items.

As a Brit, and a younger one at that, I think I largely agree with Mad Doc - in my own experience.

I don't pretend to know the money they take in, both in the UK and US, and I'm not really thinking about "per capita" stuff either, but I can certainly say that in my own anecdotal experience, GW brick and mortar stores seem pretty solid to me.

Knowing that in practically every large town or city there's a GW, with people in, stock, somewhere just to go in and have a chat, and there's a degree of consistency between each store is comforting, I guess. I've not felt that in any non-GW gaming store, at all - possibly because there isn't really any single other chain of stores that match them for high street presence. Whereas a GW can nearly always be seen somewhere, and if it can be seen, I'm going in there, damn it!

By having this chain where only their own product is sold, they have some security in that fact. And by having that high street presence, they benefit from recognisability. I doubt I'd be so much in the hobby if not for GW stores being so omnipresent for me.

I don't have solid concrete facts or statistics, but I can personally say that I feel them having stores in the UK at the very least is good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Here's some more 'perspective' on GW's insane prices.

AoS Tzaangor Box = AUD$70
40K Tzaangor Box w/10 Autopistols/Chainswords = AUD$77
Tzaangor Upgrade Sprue w/5 Autopistols/Chainswords = AUD$20

Explain that.

its the Shark and Jellyfish infested waters, along with all the face eating spiders on land, means freight companys charge danger money to ship to Ozv

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As a Brit, and a younger one at that, I think I largely agree with Mad Doc - in my own experience.

I don't pretend to know the money they take in, both in the UK and US, and I'm not really thinking about "per capita" stuff either, but I can certainly say that in my own anecdotal experience, GW brick and mortar stores seem pretty solid to me.

Knowing that in practically every large town or city there's a GW, with people in, stock, somewhere just to go in and have a chat, and there's a degree of consistency between each store is comforting, I guess. I've not felt that in any non-GW gaming store, at all - possibly because there isn't really any single other chain of stores that match them for high street presence. Whereas a GW can nearly always be seen somewhere, and if it can be seen, I'm going in there, damn it!

By having this chain where only their own product is sold, they have some security in that fact. And by having that high street presence, they benefit from recognisability. I doubt I'd be so much in the hobby if not for GW stores being so omnipresent for me.

I don't have solid concrete facts or statistics, but I can personally say that I feel them having stores in the UK at the very least is good.

What you're not allowing for is that if GW hadn't done what they've done, the retail landscape for nerd gaming would be a completely different place. There would then absolutely be space in the market for a chain of independents who sold not only GW but lots of other games and product from other associated niches like RPGs, CCGs and board games too. As it stands, an Indy in the U.K. is often going to be limited in where it's viable to areas where there's enough population to support a store without GW product, otherwise it's immediately setting itself in competition with the manufacturer of the most popular brands. I know from conversations with the owner of one of my nearest indies (almost 50 miles away, case in point) that even offering discount doesn't even necessarily work, people are illogical and there's a percentage who will go to the GW store regardless. Anecdotally, there was apparently an independent that opened exactly opposite a GW, advertising the discount in the window, and even then couldn't make it work.

TLDR The assumption that the gaming shop landscape in the U.K. would be worse without GW stores is quite possibly a faulty one, but we'll never know.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As a Brit, and a younger one at that, I think I largely agree with Mad Doc - in my own experience.

I don't pretend to know the money they take in, both in the UK and US, and I'm not really thinking about "per capita" stuff either, but I can certainly say that in my own anecdotal experience, GW brick and mortar stores seem pretty solid to me.

Knowing that in practically every large town or city there's a GW, with people in, stock, somewhere just to go in and have a chat, and there's a degree of consistency between each store is comforting, I guess. I've not felt that in any non-GW gaming store, at all - possibly because there isn't really any single other chain of stores that match them for high street presence. Whereas a GW can nearly always be seen somewhere, and if it can be seen, I'm going in there, damn it!

By having this chain where only their own product is sold, they have some security in that fact. And by having that high street presence, they benefit from recognisability. I doubt I'd be so much in the hobby if not for GW stores being so omnipresent for me.

I don't have solid concrete facts or statistics, but I can personally say that I feel them having stores in the UK at the very least is good.

What you're not allowing for is that if GW hadn't done what they've done, the retail landscape for nerd gaming would be a completely different place. There would then absolutely be space in the market for a chain of independents who sold not only GW but lots of other games and product from other associated niches like RPGs, CCGs and board games too. As it stands, an Indy in the U.K. is often going to be limited in where it's viable to areas where there's enough population to support a store without GW product, otherwise it's immediately setting itself in competition with the manufacturer of the most popular brands. I know from conversations with the owner of one of my nearest indies (almost 50 miles away, case in point) that even offering discount doesn't even necessarily work, people are illogical and there's a percentage who will go to the GW store regardless. Anecdotally, there was apparently an independent that opened exactly opposite a GW, advertising the discount in the window, and even then couldn't make it work.

TLDR The assumption that the gaming shop landscape in the U.K. would be worse without GW stores is quite possibly a faulty one, but we'll never know.

We have a comic shop that is literally 20-30 yards away from the local GW. They've just started stocking GW product at a discount. I'd love to know how many people will go there, especially on days when the GW is closed and they're open.

I'd wager it's not as many as they hope.

Probably not. There's a peculiar snobbery amongst the shopping public which I've never quite been able to fathom where a particular brand or retailer seems to be considered the "proper" one, and some very illogical buying decisions stem from it.

I know for a fact that on one occasion, and suspect probably on many more, that, while working for the third largest company in the sector, with over 100 sites across the country (so not a small concern,) I've pitched for business that I've lost to the largest operator, despite actually being cheaper. Brands have value and people be stupid, I guess.