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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Telemon is very good, but your not gonna be using 3 of them.

3 caladius grav tanks are great for their price point.

The extra durability on the Telemon only really extends to Strength 8 weaponry. The extra armor save only helps againgst small arms fire (as any high AP weapons are going up againgst the invun anyway.

The big loss is the mobility. No 14" fly limits him a lot compared to the tanks. They can get on top of buildings (for better LOS and potentially cover). They can jet across the table (to run from melee threats or get on an objective at the end of the game). He also wont be popping over screens and sniping characters out like the tanks can.

Some additional benefits are the ability to leave combat (Fly) and the -2 to charge; additionally they don’t suffer the penalty to move+shoot. I personally like the gun as well due to the higher volume of shots at range.
That said, the Telemon is generally better against vehicles and takes a lot of firepower to bring down.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Telemon is very good, but your not gonna be using 3 of them.

3 caladius grav tanks are great for their price point.

The extra durability on the Telemon only really extends to Strength 8 weaponry. The extra armor save only helps againgst small arms fire (as any high AP weapons are going up againgst the invun anyway.

The big loss is the mobility. No 14" fly limits him a lot compared to the tanks. They can get on top of buildings (for better LOS and potentially cover). They can jet across the table (to run from melee threats or get on an objective at the end of the game). He also wont be popping over screens and sniping characters out like the tanks can.

Some additional benefits are the ability to leave combat (Fly) and the -2 to charge; additionally they don’t suffer the penalty to move+shoot. I personally like the gun as well due to the higher volume of shots at range.
That said, the Telemon is generally better against vehicles and takes a lot of firepower to bring down.

Yeah, the Telemon also has a better invulnerable. It's more durable all around but the Caladius will have an easier time positioning and even grabbing end game objectives.

I'd also add that not all tournaments let you land on buildings (NOVA for example doesn't have much in the way of buildings and says you can't land on center ruins). Falling back and shooting still makes Fly incredibly useful though.

I get torn. The Telemon is a better Knight slayer, but if you're trying to blow up T7 vehicles or Primarchs, the Caladius is a good call too.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Do you believe the Telemon or the Caladius is the superior weapons platform for backing up the golden boys?

I think the Telemon is probably better, as you get the bolt launcher, better armor, and +1 Toughness. But you lose a few inches of movement.

They're both extremely solid units. it comes down to the role you need them to play. Telemons are generally better at holding ground, while Caladii are generally better at taking it. I personally tend towards the Telemon as its defensive statline is absolutely amazing (especially with Vexilla support), and already have other parts of the army it plays in designed to do the kinds of things that Caladii do.

Does the +1 to invuln if pure detachment rule also apply to the telemon/caladius?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does the +1 to invuln if pure detachment rule also apply to the telemon/caladius?

No. Only infantry and bikes.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does the +1 to invuln if pure detachment rule also apply to the telemon/caladius?

No. Only infantry and bikes.

Was that in an FAQ, or am I just misreading my Dex?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does the +1 to invuln if pure detachment rule also apply to the telemon/caladius?

No. Only infantry and bikes.

Was that in an FAQ, or am I just misreading my Dex?

page 72 in the AC codex

"ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY
and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES
Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and
the Emperor’s Chosen abilities."

Telemon with a 3++ would be stupid. Hahah.

Speaking of which, my telemon arrives tomorrow next to a good chunk of the rest of my army! I've gotten very good deals on everything so far, but I bought the telemon full price from FW.

Just two boxes to go and I'm set for 2k games.

-

Here's my initial list of what I'll have to field (There'll be a second banner on the side to be used later when I have more variety to field).


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [105 PL, 7CP, 2000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Open the Vaults (1 Relic) [-1CP]

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [23 PL, 415pts]
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe, Misericordia
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe, Misericordia
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe, Misericordia
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe, Misericordia
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe, Misericordia

Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor [7 PL, 134pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 376pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

+ Heavy Support +

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta) [13 PL, 272pts]: Arachnus Storm Cannon, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher

++ Total: [105 PL, 7CP, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Drop your allarus custodians and praetor into a separate vanguard detachment, work out the numbers to make it 3x squads of 3, might have to drop a bike or make the praetor a normal one. Then you get an extra CP.
I don't know where people got the idea the miseracordia is a must take, but drop em. Put a pair on your warlords, because they should always be in melee.

Don't know why you upgraded the praetor to terminator edition, but DS'ing him isn't worth it. He can shoot, and he can do a 6" bubble. You want to keep him out of the fight phase.

Finally, you need psyker defense, or 1ksons will eat your lunch. 85pts and 2cp will get you an assasin, which gives an 18" anti psyker bubble. Worth it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Drop your allarus custodians and praetor into a separate vanguard detachment, work out the numbers to make it 3x squads of 3, might have to drop a bike or make the praetor a normal one. Then you get an extra CP.
I don't know where people got the idea the miseracordia is a must take, but drop em. Put a pair on your warlords, because they should always be in melee.

Don't know why you upgraded the praetor to terminator edition, but DS'ing him isn't worth it. He can shoot, and he can do a 6" bubble. You want to keep him out of the fight phase.

Finally, you need psyker defense, or 1ksons will eat your lunch. 85pts and 2cp will get you an assasin, which gives an 18" anti psyker bubble. Worth it.

You realize that this list would need to cut ~300 points to make what you're suggesting happen right?

Not really. You just need to drop some of the current over stuffed units.

The 4x praetors could go down to 3, the allarus could go down to 3, that's 150pts right there.

You can drop about 40-50pts in Miseracordias as well, since those aren't required I don't think.

The three storm shields are kinda of superfluous, as the squads will have 4++ anyway across the board...

There are places to make cuts, and I like to take CPs over models in a pure Custodes list, plus the psycher defense is gonna cost CPs no matter which way you slice it. Either you're burning cp on the strat, or you are straight locking down psychic shenanigans with a Culexus?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not really.

Adding a Vanguard requires, at minimum, one additional HQ and another Allarus. That's 200+ points. Add in the assasin you want to bring, and you're pushing 300 minimum for a net minus one CP, as well as the loss of strategem cohesion on the Allarus bomb.

Not remotely worth it.

Fair argument, however I would state that the Assasin shuts down a hundred percent of the psychic in his range, for as long as he's alive. The strat only shuts down an average of 35% of the psychic, when you have cp, the first cast of the phase.

So, great, you blocked warp time, but the other 4 smites went off and deleted a unit or two. It's worth it at a min to take the assassin just as psychic defense. Just my opinion. 2 cp, his own little special det, for the cost of 1 bike.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fair argument, however I would state that the Assasin shuts down a hundred percent of the psychic in his range, for as long as he's alive. The strat only shuts down an average of 35% of the psychic, when you have cp, the first cast of the phase.

So, great, you blocked warp time, but the other 4 smites went off and deleted a unit or two. It's worth it at a min to take the assassin just as psychic defense. Just my opinion. 2 cp, his own little special det, for the cost of 1 bike.

A Culexus is -2 to cast. Not shut down everything.

If he's the closest model, he also shuts down Smite (since it has to target him, and he's immune) but that's tricky to pull off.

Ok, well, I guess my only remaining argument is the Culexus will kill the psycher before anything else can, with the exception of a Vindicaire.

But I will bow to the group on this one. Culexus isn't that important.

Next point - when did SSs on Guardian squads become a thing? Is it really better to have one model with a 3+ over a 4+, and weaker offense? Surely the offensive power of the spear would overcome any 3++/4++ debate?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, well, I guess my only remaining argument is the Culexus will kill the psycher before anything else can, with the exception of a Vindicaire.

But I will bow to the group on this one. Culexus isn't that important.

Next point - when did SSs on Guardian squads become a thing? Is it really better to have one model with a 3+ over a 4+, and weaker offense? Surely the offensive power of the spear would overcome any 3++/4++ debate?

The shooting is pretty meager either way. The main issue to me is cost.

Edit: Also, is the Culexus' gun still D1? Because if it is, it will NOT be killing Psykers at any reasonable rate.

I would state that the Culexus isn't shooting to kill, it's tossing a Psych-out grenade, then charging.

The shooting is meager? 2 S5 ap3 D2 is meager? That's a dead marine squad, primaris or otherwise.

Also, if there is a Psycher within 18" the Culexus shooting is d6 S5 AP-4 d1. So, yeah, if it all goes off, thats a dead psycher.

 JNAProductions wrote:


Edit: Also, is the Culexus' gun still D1? Because if it is, it will NOT be killing Psykers at any reasonable rate.

Yes. There's a strat that boosts it to d3 damage for one shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would state that the Culexus isn't shooting to kill, it's tossing a Psych-out grenade, then charging.

The shooting is meager? 2 S5 ap3 D2 is meager? That's a dead marine squad, primaris or otherwise.

Speculum is Assault d3 S5 AP4 D1. It becomes d6 shots if a psyker is nearby.
Grenade is d3 S2 AP0 d1 with a mortal wound on a 6+ to hit against psykers or demons.

All of which boils down to a whopping...one and a bit wounds (before saves) on average.

You aint killing gak reliably with its shooting, or punching.

Well, I think you're wrong. Mostly because your psycher can't take saves against my punches. Do, as the previous person said, D6 shots at d3 damage, it's going to hit. So let's say 3 wound. It's gonna be the invuln save. Lets say they have a 4++. So maybe two get by. 2 wounds at d2, Maybe a grenade gets a 6. Thats a dead psycher. If not here comes 4 St 4 punches, which all hit on 2s, that you can't take armor saves against. There is maybe 2 more wounds.

So for 85pts, you are likely getting 3-5 wounds on a model that in most cases only has 3-5 wounds. If nothing else, for 85pts I've forced my opponent to keep his psycher back, or risk him. It's worth 85 points to keep Arihman off my board, and a unit that basically can't get touched by anything but a 6, and can with a strat lock down a unit, and force it to fight last, blunt entire charges, and regain wounds.

I mean, long story short, what is a better option for psycher defense for custodes?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, I think you're wrong. Mostly because your psycher can't take saves against my punches. Do, as the previous person said, D6 shots at d3 damage, it's going to hit. So let's say 3 wound. It's gonna be the invuln save. Lets say they have a 4++. So maybe two get by. 2 wounds at d2, Maybe a grenade gets a 6. Thats a dead psycher. If not here comes 4 St 4 punches, which all hit on 2s, that you can't take armor saves against. There is maybe 2 more wounds.

So for 85pts, you are likely getting 3-5 wounds on a model that in most cases only has 3-5 wounds. If nothing else, for 85pts I've forced my opponent to keep his psycher back, or risk him. It's worth 85 points to keep Arihman off my board, and a unit that basically can't get touched by anything but a 6, and can with a strat lock down a unit, and force it to fight last, blunt entire charges, and regain wounds.

I mean, long story short, what is a better option for psycher defense for custodes?

You think you're killing Ahriman with a Culexus in h2h? Or that you're intimidating him with it? Oh you sweet summer child.

If you want psyker defense, bring a passel of Sisters with a Brazier cannoness, or spring for a Grey Knights supreme command. The Culexus is a tarpit unit, not a psyker lockdown unit.

I meant the CUSTODIAN GUARD shooting is meager. Culexus is reasonably shooty... But only reasonably.

Against a T4 Psyker, you get 3.5 or 7/2 shots.
35/12 hits
35/18 wounds
A little under 4 damage, assuming no Invuln save and you pop the start. If you're targeting, say, Ahriman with his 4++, halve that.

The grenade does 2 shots.
5/3 hits.
5/18 wounds before saves and 5/18 mortals. Or, assuming a 3+ save, 10/27 wounds with the mortal, for about one third of a wound.

So, a Culexus can pretty reasonably drop a 4-wound T4 Pysker with no invuln with shooting, if they get a little lucky or are in grenade range.

I'm still confused. The Guard squad w/ 3x spears, shooting,

is 3/6 shots at S5, AP3, D2 damage. Hitting on 2s. I'll take those shots over an entire squad of Primaris marines with bolter rules. What am I not understanding?

My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.

The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.

As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.

Um... Spears are Range 24", Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP-1, D2.

You take a shield in the Guard because they are not doing anything in a game anyway but stand on an objective and look pretty in gold.
A storm shield lets you tank big shots on him and makes the enemy spend more firepower on removing the unit, sparing the rest of your army as a result.

Their shooting is not impressive at all unless you regularly play against minimum squads of Primaris Marines.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, I think you're wrong.

Literally everything YOU have said has been wrong. Don’t roll into a thread telling people who have been discussing this army since the codex dropped that they are all stupid.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm still confused. The Guard squad w/ 3x spears, shooting,

is 3/6 shots at S5, AP3, D2 damage. Hitting on 2s. I'll take those shots over an entire squad of Primaris marines with bolter rules. What am I not understanding?

My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.

The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.

As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.

Yes stats are nice. How many points that is though? IG doesn't outshoot marine infantry by having superior guns but by having superior numbers.

Also dead guardian isn't shooting anything anyway and you don't need SS on every model.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What am I not understanding?

Quite a lot apparently.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

My Culexus takes down more than he costs. All my assasins do. I don't have trouble earning their worth in matches.

Making your points back with an 85 point model that can, in the right hands, easily liquefy several hundred points of targets isnt an accomplishment. Its doing so in a way that justifies its opportunity cost.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

The sisters (of silence or battle?) I did consider, but I'd rather go Supreme command det with 3 Primaris Psychers. Or 3 Primaris Librarians. Either or. GEQ null units make me meh.

As for the GK suggestion....I really don't want to buy any more GK models. I learned my lesson in that regard already this edition. You won't fool me again.

You're...wanting to run Primaris Libbies but refuse to look at the options that get you nearly double to triple the deny-efficiency on a per points basis while simultaneously being better beatsticks? Yeah that explains a lot.

Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.

The same ability does not stack unless explicitly allowed to, like Night Lord's morale fethery.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Have any of you seen someone try to use multiple Vexilla Magnificas to stack -1s to hit? I don't see any RAW that prevents that. It would obviously be a dick move to try that. If it were to be accepted, I'd imagine it would get FAQed.

The same ability does not stack unless explicitly allowed to, like Night Lord's morale fethery.

The closest thing we have to that is putting one next to an Orion, so we can be at the same level as Eldar flyers.