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The Caladius is a T7 3+/5++ platform. That's a gak defensive statline.

By comparison the Onager has the same defensive statline, a comparable (albeit not 1:1) main gun in either the Neutron or Icarus and PoTMS. It clocks in 100 points less.

100 points for a BS2+, Fly and -2 to charges? Thats reasonable math.

The onnager is 119pts for 11 W T7 3+ 5++ however it has canticles so will often have cover on 2+turns so is functionally a 2+ and it rerolls 1's on its invul save

Compareing 2 neutron onager at 238 to a calladius is a closer example

The onager outperforms it defensively 22w-14 better save better invul
The onager can also if stygies have a -1 without paying for the banner


Meanwhile the onagers main gun replaces the +1bs with +2S +1AP

And balances half the shots with double the damage

The onager olso has 2 extra stubbers so that 12 boltgun shots for the 2 as a bonus

The onager has 48" range and can move 6" without penalty so both models can shoot the board

So we have fly which is great for objective grabbing late game and the -2 from chargeing but this is at the expense of survivability and shooting.

Im not saying its not competative but it doesnt outclass everything

Wow, this is almost as bad as the Guard apologetics. We can't say there are many tanks out there with 14' fly moves, with the weaponry this thing boasts, for 210 points.

Sure, it's outclassed by things, but the max potential of this thing, -1 to hit, and re-rolling 1s with a captain around, or wounds with Trojan. I mean, come on. It's not the Castellan of old, but it's pretty cheese for 210 points. This can be abused, and needs to be prevented from doing so. Points are the best way.

You really, really dont want to open the can of worms that is "well if you give this thing hundreds of points worth of support its super effective, and therefore is OP and must be nerfed into uselessness". Do that and you're calling for nerfs to well, everything.

But then again simple non-histrionic logic isnt exactly your strong suit. So here we are.

Hey, show me a list of Custodes that doesn't include a shield captain or a Praetor. Go ahead. I'll wait for you to grow up as well.

Oh so suddenly death star units are ok?

Make up your mind. It’s hard to follow what you’re bitching about when you change your position every fifteen minutes.

I feel the Caladius is undercosted, but not by a lot. You pump it up 100 points and it's basically useless in a competitive sense. 20 points is probably about right in my opinion.

Since you can't come up with any lists that don't include a Shield Captain, or a Praetor, I'll just go ahead and state you can't, and I'm right on that.

You brought up "death star". Ok, here's a strawman, beat it to death, because that's about the totality of your skill in arguing here. I never brought up death stars. And for the record, I don't think you know what a "death star" is in relation to 40k.

3 HW, 1 HQ, and 1 Elite hardly constitute a death star.

Now that I've beaten you on two points, please come back to the point. What argument is there to justify keeping the Callidus in the same points level it's at currently?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Since you can't come up with any lists that don't include a Shield Captain, or a Praetor, I'll just go ahead and state you can't, and I'm right on that.

What the feth are you even arguing here?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

You brought up "death star". Ok, here's a strawman, beat it to death, because that's about the totality of your skill in arguing here. I never brought up death stars.

You're literally bringing them up earlier on this page. Right here:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Guard apologetics. We can't say there are many tanks out there with 14' fly moves, with the weaponry this thing boasts, for 210 points.

Sure, it's outclassed by things, but the max potential of this thing, -1 to hit, and re-rolling 1s with a captain around, or wounds with Trojan. I mean, come on. It's not the Castellan of old, but it's pretty cheese for 210 points. This can be abused, and needs to be prevented from doing so. Points are the best way.

Emphasis mine.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
3 HW, 1 HQ, and 1 Elite hardly constitute a death star.

When that's half of a list, it absolutely does. But this is the person who thinks 150 points of SoS makes an army immune to mortal wounds so its no surprise that you have a tenuous at best grip on reality.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now that I've beaten you on two points, please come back to the point. What argument is there to justify keeping the Callidus in the same points level it's at currently?

Yes, I bow to your superior ability to be completely incoherent and not know what the hell you're talking about.

As to your question, the Caladius is decently costed for what it brings to the table: reliability. It is inherently squishy, not particularly lethal in relation to other heavy armor, and not the most mobile platform around. But as long as its on the table it *will* contribute and can't be ignored.

While seeing a unit used in every competitive army is definitely a way to measure if its a good unit, it is by far not an overpowered or undercosted unit.

It preforms better than most custodes units because most custodes units are overcosted.

If bikes are considered the best things in the codex, why are terminators the same cost when they are obviously not as good.

Deep strike is nice, but its not worth the same points as +1 toughness and a 14" fly move. Oh termies also happen to be supremely outclassed in anti-horde capabilities because they don't have a hurricane bolter.

All versions of termies need to be cheaper by 5-10 points, even the forgeworld ones, because they die just as easy. They pay more points for their weapons anyway.

Custodian guard need to be cheaper as well because they never make their points back unless they get lucky on their saves.

Sterling191 wrote:

As to your question, the Caladius is decently costed for what it brings to the table: reliability. It is inherently squishy, not particularly lethal in relation to other heavy armor, and not the most mobile platform around. But as long as its on the table it *will* contribute and can't be ignored.

How do you reckon it's decently costed?

I posted this on reddit, but it's equally relevant here:

It's closest imperial comparison would be a Tank Commander w/ Battle Cannon and 3x Heavy Bolters. That Tank Commander costs 188 points, the Caladius costs 22 points more. For that cost, you get:

+1 Ballistic Skill
5+ Invuln Save
fixed 8 shots instead of random 2D6 (even with re-rolls, I'd take a flat 8)
-3 AP instead of -2 AP
Fly keyword
+2 wounds
SIGNIFICANTLY more manuverable... 14" move and fire at full effect, if the russ moves at all it has a penalty on sponsons, moving more than 5" means you lose half your main cannon firepower.
-2 to enemy charge rolls against it


The cost of all this?
-1 toughness (almost always mitigated by a Vixilia Magnfica for -1 to hit)
22 poitns.

Yea... this unit needs a price hike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
The Caladius is a T7 3+/5++ platform. That's a gak defensive statline.

By comparison the Onager has the same defensive statline, a comparable (albeit not 1:1) main gun in either the Neutron or Icarus and PoTMS. It clocks in 100 points less.

100 points for a BS2+, Fly and -2 to charges? Thats reasonable math.

The Str 8 AP -3 D3 damage from the Caladius is in no way comparable to the Onager.

The Neutron laser is D3 shots... so generally 2 shots. 1/4 the number of shots, and it doesn't have the back up Str6 AP-2 Heavy 6 guns of the Caladius.

The Icarus array is also worse against all targets. -1 BS vs all tanks, and mostly autocannon equivalent shells or weaker... while the Caladius is firing battlecannon rounds with better AP.

They are not comparable. At all.

Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.

2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.


Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.

Meanwhile there is an Vanquisher turret somewhere crying.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.

2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.


Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.

Nobody takes Leman Russ in a tournament list, you only take Tank Commanders. Those are a 0-3 choice, unless you take Pask, then you can get 4. At most.

2 Dunecrawlers is about the same damage done as 1 caladius... Consider firing against a Knight.

2 Neutron laser Onagers will do average 3.556 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln, assuming you roll average of 4 damage.

1 Caladius will do on average 3.333 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln.

2 Dunecrawlers have more wounds, but are very vulnerable to melee, and much less manuverability, and you can only take 3 per army, so 3 Caladius have significantly more firepower.

A more interesting comparison is to throw plasma cannons on the tank commander (192 points), and make it either Tallarn (no move+shoot penalty) or Catachan (re-rollable number of shots). Remember that the Tank Commander will always be re-rolling 1s to hit thanks to the orders it will be giving itself.

 Horst wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not if your looking at one onager, which is significantly cheaper.

2 onagers is closer to the proper price, and puts out a far more comparable damage, in fact better damage againgst targets with 3/6/9 wounds as their big gun never does less than 3 damage and can do 6.


Lemon russ isn't comparable because you can take 12 lemon russ's in an army whereas the calidius can only be taken 3 of.

Nobody takes Leman Russ in a tournament list, you only take Tank Commanders. Those are a 0-3 choice, unless you take Pask, then you can get 4. At most.

2 Dunecrawlers is about the same damage done as 1 caladius... Consider firing against a Knight.

2 Neutron laser Onagers will do average 3.556 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln, assuming you roll average of 4 damage.

1 Caladius will do on average 3.333 damage against a Knight with a 4++ invuln.

2 Dunecrawlers have more wounds, but are very vulnerable to melee, and much less manuverability, and you can only take 3 per army, so 3 Caladius have significantly more firepower.

so yes pts per effectiveness dunecrawlers are better in terms of shooting defence and will have shot up some squishy guard squad with their stubbers as a bonus they also dont need the maneuvarabilty due to huge range

the rule of 3 is the limitation on dunecrawlers but its not admechs only AV

Saying that dunecrawlers don't need maneuverability due to huge range is disengenuous at best. 14" fly move is so ridiculously amazing that anything else in this game is horrible compared to that. It's nearly impossible to hide from a vehicle like that, while against a Dunecrawler any good table will have big LOS blocking terrain pieces you can use to your advantage.

Besides, Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers are nearly equal point for point with the Caladius against Knights, but the Caladius does much better against heavy infantry and light tanks. The Icarus Array Dunecrawler does pretty well against light infantry, but the Caladius is better, and also better against all other targets.

The Caladius is just good against everything, impossible to hide against, and has literally zero weaknesses... and is priced a solid 30-40 points too low for how good it is.

Okay typing from my phone here so I'll keep this short. The grab-tank is great for its points but I do not think it needs a price hike if anything some of the other need price reductions of 10 or so points and gechicles need a back out and shoot at -1.

Man it is going to get extremely confusing if every keeps referring to this tank as the Callidus. Especially when the Callidus assassin is also a competitive unit

I think the Caladius has distinct weaknesses. It is only T7/3+/5++ so it's actually fairly squishy as far as competitive tanks go. It's got about the same armor as a chaos decimator or relic contemptor, both of which are significantly cheaper for similar firepower. Most gunlines should have the tools to take one down in one turn. And even when it survives, it's 200 pts that only outputs 8 shots a turn which isn't that scary unless it shoots every turn for 3-4+ turns.

As a chaos player I'm used to paying 140pts for decimators that have the same number of S8 shots on a T7/5++ body. Decimators go down like paper.

Would I pay 60pts more for 60" range, fly, and significantly better BS at all wound brackets? Maybe. Depends on the rest of my list. But it ends up being a much more expensive way to buy S8 shots compared to cheap 140pt decimators, or even 293pt butcher leviathans (the latter having way more durability and significantly cheaper S8 shots compared to a Caladius).

I'd love to see someone run a pure Custodes list with bike spam + 3x Caladius. 24 S8 shots for 600pts.... isn't amazing. But then you compensate for that with shield captains...

@slave.entity someone ran exactly that list at BAO and went 5-1

Oh that's amazing.

Slave entity, your decimators have what, 8 wounds? A Caladius grav tank has 14. If it had like 10 wounds or so, fine, I'd agree, it's a glass cannon. But 14 wounds T7 / 3+/5++ with an easy way to make it -1 to hit is not very fragile.

It's not even really a glass cannon since it's not at all heavily armed for its points. I think it's a solidly competitive, high mobility medium tank in terms of survivability and firepower.

A 40pt increase would put the Caladius at over 80% the cost of a tsons butcher leviathan which is T8 2+/5++, BS2, double the firepower, easily buffed by Ahriman to -1 to hit, 1+/4++. And while tsons levis are competitive, they aren't exactly dominating the meta, even with significantly more durability/firepower per point compared to a Caladius.

Fly is definitely really good but 8 shots just isn't that much for 200pts.

You could also compare the offensive/defensive output of 2 Caladius tanks to the dual avenger gatling Chaos knight. The chaos knight is way scarier and only appears occasionally in competitive games.

I think you're underestimating fly and 14" move, and just how good that is. A Tsons Levi, I can lock down its shooting in close combat. The Caladius doesn't have that weakness, it cannot be locked in melee. It may not increase its firepower, but it's a great rule that should have a cost associated with it, not be something it just gets for free. The Caladius may only have 8 main gun shots, but its backup gun is what, heavy 6 str 6 AP-2, right? That's nothing to sneeze at.

Definitely agree that 14" fly is the main strength and I have underestimated that before. It will never stop shooting and can move-block stuff with its massive hull.

Will be interesting to see how the meta reacts.

I mean, yeah the Caladius is pretty good for its points, but the comparisons shown here only really show that its comparable to other options in the Imperium. Only slightly different in relative value for points

A banner and Valoris/Shield captain really turn it up to 11 as well, but make sure you remember that in order to do that, you basically have to spend 300 points in babysitters.

Maybe the points could go up a tad, but I wouldn't be surprised if you get some hostile reactions in the Custodes tactics thread when you suggest that it be increased by 80 points, as some have said. That would just push it into the "never gets played" pile.

Ok, so again, everyone is stating you need a 300pt tax to play these guys. You can't make a list with these guys without an HQ, and every HQ gives the re-roll aura, so that is a given. The Praetor, well, that is 114pts minimum which isn't that much to ask for a -1 to hit buff.

As a custodes player, I would give these guys a auto-include upto about 250 points with the stock cannons. Or a 40pt increase.

And Marines need at least two HQs for a battalion. Should we assume they’re rerolling all hits and 1s to wound for free as well?

 slave.entity wrote:
Definitely agree that 14" fly is the main strength and I have underestimated that before. It will never stop shooting and can move-block stuff with its massive hull.

Will be interesting to see how the meta reacts.

It’s kind of like a Custodes biker: take your stock space marine/imperial thing and make it +1 in everything. You get a unit that is tough, fast, and hits hard. It’s hard to cost that, and it ends up not having the same weaknesses of some similarly costed units. I think that the meta will find a way to kill it though

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so again, everyone is stating you need a 300pt tax to play these guys. You can't make a list with these guys without an HQ, and every HQ gives the re-roll aura, so that is a given. The Praetor, well, that is 114pts minimum which isn't that much to ask for a -1 to hit buff.

As a custodes player, I would give these guys a auto-include upto about 250 points with the stock cannons. Or a 40pt increase.

As a custodes player I would say not to nerf these unless they make some of our other units cheaper. Right now that tank is proping up custodes to decent level. Also while very good unlike something like the Castellean which I agreed with the nerfs for that was because it was nigh impossible to deal with. There was no really effective way to deal with in a point for point basis. Now our grav-tank on the other hand is no where near so durable. And while it does have great mobility and thankfully fly to let it function. If you are saying it one of the few usable vehicles then I say thats more damning of Vehicles in general then saying that the grav tank is too good.