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Had a short home kitchen table game against my mates brand new CSM list.
I was using -
Valoris
Bike captain, standard stuff, salvo
3x3 dudes 1s&b
Vexillor
2x4 bikes, 2 salvo + 2 hurricane in each
Telemon.
Pretty basic, just cobbled it together as I had time for a game.

His list was something like:
Discordant, 3 maulers, ex champ, apostle, prince w wings, with 3x5 marines + 3x10 cultists in two Corsairs battalion
And an alpha legion spearhead of another prince, a rhino , 3x5 havocs(chain,las,auto) and a rhino

Chose to play tactical gambit because it's fun- adds another edge to the game, and as it's at home, its always go big or gohome . Used hammer and anvil. He deployed his core of maulers on the right, centre havocs, and on the left was his screens.
I deployed so everything was -1 to hit, but spread out so one squad of bikes flanked my right with the captain, the other squad flanking left behind a big terrain bit.
I failed to seize, he went first. Importantly, he made the centre bricked with vehicles and got 1 to a first turn charge into one squad and some bikes (his leftish, my rightish, near centre. Only killed a bike and the SS dude. Not bad.
My turn 1 I jumped out with the captain to go at the discordant and champion holding center hoping to get rid of his rerolls to wound. Bikes flanked around left hitting a mauler a prince and the rhino to no avail. Core moved up, got charges off with everything. Lots of killing and chopping, both left depleted.

From there it was a true scrap in the centre of the board, with the telemon licking off the odd squad of havocs and the custodes getting smashed in the middle.
By the end of round 3 all his maulers were dead as well as both princes and the discordant, with me set up for a nice next turn charge.
Unfortunately we ran out of time there, but with me doubling him in points 16-8 we called it a win for me. The next wave of havocs and the like would have definitely hurt me, but with a little left (couple members of each guards squad, vexulla, valoris and the dread) ig was looking good for the bringers of the emporers justice.

In reflection,, mauler fiends are tough. Thought to move, tough to be in combat with. And double firing ahtocannond bring the pain. They killed the whole second squad of bikes in one round.

He's got a strong list, now needs to learn how to use it properly and make some refinements.
Enjoyed the game, a needed break from my pointy eared sadists from the new army which my opponent really hates

I think we're fine as a mono faction in a casual environment, and a very fun army to use. Tough nuts to crack alot of the time.
Cheers guys, hopefully you enjoyed my first attempt at a battle report

So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.

Postulent wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.

When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Postulent wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.

When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.

Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.

 Horst wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Postulent wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.

When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.

Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.

Just shoot me. I'm too dumb to live.

But then he will melee that unit, which will still die or be severely crippled. Maybe a Sister of silence squad...

Take it with a pair of Storm Cannons, it only has 4 attacks in melee, Str 8 but no AP and only 1 damage... not really a serious threat to any Custodes model.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Postulent wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, my experience has been they are extremely hard to remove from the table, which sets up really long games, which is fun. I have played 6 games so far, and every time I have almost my complete army heading into the 3rd turn.

I just know when I play against GSC I will get wrecked though. Too many good weaknesses for them to exploit.

Me: Please don't mind control my Telemon....
Them: No.

Don't know about anything else, but just have one model stand next to telemon, and you will be pretty safe.

When did range factor into Mind Control? They have to shoot the closest model now? I didn't know that. I thought they could make one shooting attack/melee attack against any model they can see? And that means a dead unit.

Shooting range has nothing to do with it, if the Telemon is standing within 1" of your model it's considered in close combat then, because it's within 1" of an "enemy" model, since the opponent controls it. It cannot shoot you the.

Just shoot me. I'm too dumb to live.

But then he will melee that unit, which will still die or be severely crippled. Maybe a Sister of silence squad...

Another little known fact about mind control is that you are only allowed to make a single melee attack when controlled.

They even spelled the interaction out in the latest Faq for everyone to see.
Just keep someone within 1" if your afraid of MC.

Hey question for you. My friend plays dark angels and tends to run a 10 man hellblaster squad with Azrael and a LT for rerolls. Azrael lets them reroll everything of course, and also gives them a 4++ invuln save. He also runs a banner which allows them to shoot/fight when they die on a 3+. Between overcharge and Weapons from the Dark Age, they do 3 damage, so are super lethal to my doods in theory.

How would you best crack this unit? My gut says concussion grenades from Allarus to deny overwatch, and then beat the hell out of them in melee. But that 4++ blunts a lot of our power weapons.

Thoughts?

 iGuy91 wrote:
Hey question for you. My friend plays dark angels and tends to run a 10 man hellblaster squad with Azrael and a LT for rerolls. Azrael lets them reroll everything of course, and also gives them a 4++ invuln save. He also runs a banner which allows them to shoot/fight when they die on a 3+. Between overcharge and Weapons from the Dark Age, they do 3 damage, so are super lethal to my doods in theory.

How would you best crack this unit? My gut says concussion grenades from Allarus to deny overwatch, and then beat the hell out of them in melee. But that 4++ blunts a lot of our power weapons.

Thoughts?

shoot them with bikes, charge them with a Shield captain biker, then slaughter in melee. It's simple, but it pretty much sums up the entire Custodes manual. Shoot, Charge, Melee. Rinse Repeat.

Fair.

However, their banner will let the hellblasters fire back at me when i shoot them, and then again, rerolling all misses on overwatch. (Assuming 6 bikes, thats roughly 5 hellblasters, half of them rapid fire back, roughly 6-7 saves to make in kind. Then overwatch is maybe another 4-5 saves to make.

I won't have much left of my bikes at that point. In fact, i think that i'd lose that trade point wise.

Try taking an Assassin. An Eversor or Calidus would work great. They could assault the Hellblasters hopefully from out of line of sight of them (or the Eversor is probably durable enough to survive being overwatched by them) and tie them up, so your Custodes can get in there without casualties.

Well, no. Math Hammer gives 1.63 wounds taken off a Shield captain on a Jet bike.

12 shots, hitting on 6s, not overcharged, will likely never kill a SCjet Bike.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, no. Math Hammer gives 1.63 wounds taken off a Shield captain on a Jet bike.

12 shots, hitting on 6s, not overcharged, will likely never kill a SCjet Bike.

Its an Azrael Hellblaster star. They're going to be overcharged (and likely backed by an Apothecary that'll bring them back when they inevitably self-immolate). Its also 50/50 whether they're gonna pop WotDA if you're sending in bikes. Thats more than enough firepower to slag at least one 4++ bike in Overwatch, and dangerously close to annihilating a 3++ bike cappy. Flat 3 damage makes the equation excruciatingly swingy. Bonus points for the hilarity the banner introduces to the equation, as any model that does explode doubles its firepower, and also screws with your charge distance.

 Horst wrote:
Try taking an Assassin. An Eversor or Calidus would work great. They could assault the Hellblasters hopefully from out of line of sight of them (or the Eversor is probably durable enough to survive being overwatched by them) and tie them up, so your Custodes can get in there without casualties.

Eversor dropping out of LoS if possible, then using the 3d6 charge to get in would get my vote. That said, if you're playing the disruptor game, a Callidus can make WotDA prohibitively expensive.

Ok, help me with the math then, because I'm not sure what I'm missing. Even at 3 damage, still it would take 3 rounds of shooting to kill a Biker captain.

Hitting on 6s, 12 shots, AP4, D3, S8,re-rolling misses: 3.667 hits.

Against T6, 7 wounds, 3+/3++ with a 5+ FnP, you are getting: .815 wounds....

So in effect, the SC makes the charge, as to the other bike squads, and it's a completely dead squad of marines after melee.

Where am I missing math, because you likely know more than me on BA/DA.

Assuming a 9-inch charge at an oblique angle against a full squad with a 15" rapid fire range, you're looking at ~15 shots (probably more depending on how they're arranged, that additional range the plasma incinerators get is MURDER). Plus you're not factoring in the LT buff in the Azzy castle.

Remember, you're dealing with a flat 3 damage hit here if WotDA is in play. That makes averages of hits/wounds via probabilities far less reliable. Especially with a Banner in the equation.

And you are *not* wiping a 10-man Primaris squad sporting a 4++, in cover, plus or minus a Darkshroud (and lets face it, if its an Azzy star, there's gonna be a Darkshroud), with a single bike cappy. Even with combined shooting and stabbing.

Each Hellblaster has 2 shots (with 15" Rapid Fire range, if you want a good charge, you ain't avoiding the two shots) hitting on 6s, rerolling; wounding on 3s, rerolling 1s. I'll assume the banner is out of range, so they only die on a 1, but if they DO die, they shoot again on a 3+, hitting on a 3+ (due to how GW rules it).

2 shots
11/18 hits, with a 335/1,296 chance of dying (I'll calculate at the end)
77/162 wounds
.475 wounds

335/648 shots from death
335/729 hits
2,345/6,561 wounds
.357 wounds

Total of .832 wounds per Hellblaster. Times 1.5 for normal Bikes (3 damage but a 4++ save) for 1.248 damage per Hellblaster, or needing 3-4 Hellblasters shooting to kill a Bike.

Against a Captain with a 3++ but no VotBG, it's .832 damage per Hellblaster, or about eight and a half to kill him.

Where are you getting 11/18 hits? On 6's? Thats 3/18, w/ re-rolls that's only 5/11. So of those 5 hits, wounding on 3s, 3 get through. and 2 are wiped out by the invuln. So 1 shot, for overwatch.

This is strictly overwatch. I am not factoring in all the future phases. The captain will survive overwatch of 18 shots from these guys.

Again, unless there is some stupid rule that lets them overwatch on 5+, they aren't killing anything close to a Biker Captain.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where are you getting 11/18 hits? On 6's? Thats 3/18, w/ re-rolls that's only 5/11. So of those 5 hits, wounding on 3s, 3 get through. and 2 are wiped out by the invuln. So 1 shot, for overwatch.

This is strictly overwatch. I am not factoring in all the future phases. The captain will survive overwatch of 18 shots from these guys.

Again, unless there is some stupid rule that lets them overwatch on 5+, they aren't killing anything close to a Biker Captain.

5/6 chance of missing.
Multiply that by itself to get the total odds of missing with a reroll, for 25/36 chance of missing.
Subtract that from 1 to get your odds of hitting, for 11/36.

With 2 shots, that's 22/36, or 11/18 hits per Hellblaster on Overwatch.

Ok, I just plugged in the factors into Mathhammer:

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

And it came out to what I said. 5.5 hits. Of those hits, 3.667 damage gets done.

So again, I can either trust your math, or the site that everyone uses. There is no way you are getting 11/18 hits on overwatch. That is above 50%.

Your math is wrong. Baring a rule I am completely unaware of, you are not getting 50% hits on overwatch.

18 shots, BS6, S8, AP4, D3. Against T6, 7W, 3+/3++ = 3.667 damage, 0 dead models. With full re-rolls to misses, and no FnP

11/18 hits from 2 shots.

And you don't factor in some models exploding and potentially shooting again.

It's an 11/18 chance of making ONE hit per model. Not an 11/18 chance to hit per shot. You're also once again not factoring in the banner, or the LT buff (the former of which is the massive force multiplier that nearly doubles damage output).

Sterling191 wrote:
It's an 11/18 chance of making ONE hit per model. Not an 11/18 chance to hit per shot. You're also once again not factoring in the banner, or the LT buff (the former of which is the massive force multiplier that nearly doubles damage output).

Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.

You're not even using the site right.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.

I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.

The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.

I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.

True. TO ANYDICE!

5 Hellblasters gives you a just under 4% chance of killing a Captain.
6 gives just over 6%.
7 gives just under 10%.
8 gives nearly 13%.
9 gives almost 17%.
10 gives over 20%.

Here's the link to the program for a single Hellblaster.

And once again, no Banner. That MASSIVELY ups the damage.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.

I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.

The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.

Yup. It's statistically not likely, but we've all seen someone roll 5-6 6's out of 20. It's not uncommon enough that I'd feel safe risking a captain on it not happening.

Actually, the ideal solution here is to use an Allied Guard detachment. Take a Guard Detachment w/ the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company, and either a Basilisk or a Wyvern. Use the stratagem for "Suppression Fire" to prevent the enemy from being able to overwatch.

Primaris Suppressors are a similar countermeasure (albeit not nearly as competitive of one). Run em as Raven Guard and they mitigate one of the major Primaris weaknesses vs. Dark Angels (vulnerability to plasma-like weapons). Less reliable as they need a kill to lock down overwatch, but if you dont want to run Guard theyre an option, and probably a whole lot cheaper ($$$) to acquire than bassies.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. When I put it in with all the appropriate buffs (except the banner) I get 4.278 damage from 18 shots.

I want to once again re-emphasize how, when dealing with flat damage weapons of greater than 1 damage, probabilistic models become much more variable as the damage value increases. All it takes is a slight shift in overwatch dice overperforming and you're suddenly putting a dozen damage through.

The bottom line is that there is a significant non-zero chance of your bike cappy getting atomized on the charge in this particular scenario. Which makes him absolutely not an ideal choice as a counterplay.

which is why I prefer http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com because it actually does show result ranges.

I think a better option is to kill them from range...long range. That unit is a substantial points investment, and a significant chunk of their firepower...so kill them with Caladius tanks before they get in range and this be unable to shoot back when they die. A single accelerator cannon with a shield captain nearby puts 3-4 D3 dmg wounds (after saves) on the hellblasters, you get another 2 dmg from the bolt cannon. Running the triple-tank spearhead you can kill almost all of them in a single volley, after which your bikes/termies can go in and kill the other stuff.