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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In regards to the VotBG, from the Tactics page of 1d4chan:


Most of time this is going to be used on a Shield Captain. Unless he's taking a negative on his to-hit rolls for some reason, he's already rerolling all his 1's, so you can't spend the reroll there. That leaves only the wound rolls and saves that will ever get used for this. While still AMAZING to have that sort of insurance in your back pocket, for a CP hungry army like this, this (usually) two-option single reroll may not be worth a whole 2CP. Against certain lists it definitely could be, but you should always consider what you're going to get out of it first. If you don't think your shield-captain on jetbike will be threatened by much or have trouble wounding in a certain match, consider saving the 2CP for something else.

I'd spend it on Trojan, and Vexhilla teleport him into the back lines, but it really doesn't do much for Biker captains. With the ammount of dakka getting tossed around in the 8th, it's hard to validate 2cp for a single die roll.

Maybe I'm misplaying it? It's 1 single die, not all the die rolled in the act right? So, it's not all the hurricane bolter shots, it's one single miss.

This is actually a great point. Even though VotBG would be used over and over again during save rolls, the reroll during your turn would be rare. Like you said, we always hit on 2s and reroll 1s, and reroll wounds on the charge anyway.

Might also add the SC's get a 3++/5+++ anyway, what exactly are you going to re-roll?

Nah, save it for sword/spear/axe buffs, Shoulder the Mantle, and FGLTC.

That being said, has anyone seen the Orion Dropship on tables? Played with it? Played as? How does it perform?

So bikes.

Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.

Which do you think is better and why?

 iGuy91 wrote:
So bikes.

Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.

Which do you think is better and why?

So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.

2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.

I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.

Audustum wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So bikes.

Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.

Which do you think is better and why?

So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.

2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.

I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.

Ever Vigilant is Infantry only.

Unless you have some master plan for a big unit of Jetbikes, its generally best to split them up. Swooping dive and maybe FGLTC are the only 'buffs' worth applying to them and there are many reasons to argue for MSU in an army with so few units, not to mention being more resistant to enemy debuffs and the like.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So bikes.

Do you think 2 squads of 3, or 1 squad of 6 is a better configuration? I think 2x3 is more flexible, but 6 allows you to use avenge the fallen on them more effectively.

Which do you think is better and why?

So it's a trade off. 1 squad of 6 not only improves Avenge the Fallen, but it strengthens Ever Vigilant if your opponent deploys anything from reserves in range. It also strengthens Stooping Dive if you have other units to keep the 6 Jetbikes from being charged by an enemy first.

2x3, however, allows the Jetbikes to screen each other for Stooping Dive, thus making it more reliable to pull off, if less powerful. It also allows them to split apart for objective grabbing as necessary since they are ObSec and can move 20" in a single turn.

I personally do 3x3 as an Outrider with a Shield-Captain on a Jetbike. I prefer the extra flexibility on Stooping Dive rather than the buffed power. Sadly, they rarely lose units in the same turn they are going to melee in my experience so I don't get much use out of Avenge the Fallen.

Ever Vigilant is Infantry only.

Unless you have some master plan for a big unit of Jetbikes, its generally best to split them up. Swooping dive and maybe FGLTC are the only 'buffs' worth applying to them and there are many reasons to argue for MSU in an army with so few units, not to mention being more resistant to enemy debuffs and the like.

Fair enough on Ever Vigilant but it wasn't a huge portion of the rationale.

Despite favoring 3x3 myself, most tournament placing lists I see of squad Jetbikes take 2x4 or 2x5 or something along those lines.

The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.

If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.

Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.

Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.

Fair enough. I may start trying to run 2 squads of 3 then, each with a shield captain on a bike to back them up on opposite flanks, see how that works.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.

If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.

Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.

Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.

You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics

stratigo wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.

If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.

Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.

Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.

You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics

So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.

And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.

If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.

Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.

Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.

You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics

So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.

And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.

On squad, DS. 8 bikes isn’t enough to run two squads in my opinion. They can’t afford to be wasted on objectives. You can use your other units for that. 8 bikes represents your hitting power. They need to kill and not die. Literally any elite unit in the game with the ability to I would DS, unless you have truly epic amount of terrain. 40k is too lethal to try and just eat the firepower. And your bike will have a turn with their asses in the breeze without a deepstrike. With a deepstrike they can unleash their full firepower and have a 54 percent chance of a charge. No army I have played against has not either had an extreme on the table first turn alpha strike or a hefty off the table beta strike. If you’re using 8 bikes, you aren’t going to have a strong alpha, but bikes are an extremely good beta strike. They just need to not all die to the enemy alpha

stratigo wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with a squad of 6 is, the pain of each model lost becomes multiplicative. Two squads of 4 is a good start.

If you have two squads, they can hold two different objectives. A giant squad of 6 is going to be target numero uno for any opponent with a brain, and it won't be hard to take it down.

Then, your tying 540 points up in a single unit, that likely won't survive round 2.

Bikes have two main objectives as I see it. Grabbing points, and eliminating chaff and heavy infantry. You can send them up against tanks/heavy support, but then you aren't doing much.

You teleport the bikes. It’s not harder to kill 8 bikes in 2 squads than 8 in 1 unless your opponent is completely oblivious to statistics

So why would you hold 8 bikes, no matter how you break them up, in reserve until turn 2? That's a lot to keep off the board. Besides, I'd rather move them myself and make the charge on my terms than DS them, and have to roll 9s or better just to get the charge off.

And it's harder to kill two squads that are on separate objectives on the board. If you place both squads on the same objective you aren't trying to do what I was trying to do.

On squad, DS. 8 bikes isn’t enough to run two squads in my opinion. They can’t afford to be wasted on objectives. You can use your other units for that. 8 bikes represents your hitting power. They need to kill and not die. Literally any elite unit in the game with the ability to I would DS, unless you have truly epic amount of terrain. 40k is too lethal to try and just eat the firepower. And your bike will have a turn with their asses in the breeze without a deepstrike. With a deepstrike they can unleash their full firepower and have a 54 percent chance of a charge. No army I have played against has not either had an extreme on the table first turn alpha strike or a hefty off the table beta strike. If you’re using 8 bikes, you aren’t going to have a strong alpha, but bikes are an extremely good beta strike. They just need to not all die to the enemy alpha

Only thing is, out of deep strike, the chance for making a 9 inch 2d6 charge is something like 33%. With a reroll its 45%. Meaning they won't get in until t3 more than half the time, and have a turn of being in the open.

Right. DSing your bikes is statistically more likely to get them killed, in my experience. Which I will add, is limited as far as Custodes goes. I have 2 years of experience DSing units to 9" and watching them fail charges.

The key in this game (for me) is to keep all your units at about the same point cost so that one doesn't become too much of a priority over the other, making the decision to attack one over the other a problem for your opponent. My main custodes force keeps my units at about 270~ points. That means 3 model bike squads.

Honestly everyone who was running 3x3 bike squads should have swapped to 2x4 with a grav speeder for their outrider detachment anyway.

Its only 30 extra points and gets you a slightly better anti-tank capability along with 4 extra wounds (the grav speeders are pretty good at soaking smites and reducing enemy charges againgst the bikes as well.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Honestly everyone who was running 3x3 bike squads should have swapped to 2x4 with a grav speeder for their outrider detachment anyway.

Its only 30 extra points and gets you a slightly better anti-tank capability along with 4 extra wounds (the grav speeders are pretty good at soaking smites and reducing enemy charges againgst the bikes as well.

I switched to this recently (well, 2x3 and a pallas) cause I wanted to run aquilons. After Gentleman's GT I've realized that I need a better way to kill knights because even 3x Caladius doesn't do it fast enough against multiple knights. The pallas will add a bit extra shooting...I'm a bit nervous about the eldar flyer matchup now without the extra bike squad but I think the anti-vehicle shots from the pallas and a squad of termies to drop in will be about even with what I had. I view the Pallas as an "Attack bike" (ala the custodes version).

So, anyone use the Orion? Does it perform for the cost, or is it shelf bait?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, anyone use the Orion? Does it perform for the cost, or is it shelf bait?

If you look back a few pages there’s a few batreps with it.

I'm gonna attend my first 2k game with my brand-spanking-new Custodians this Weekend. What do you guys think about my list?

HQ:

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Hurricane Bolter, Interceptor Lance, Misericordia, Relic: Auric Aquilas, Warlord: Superior Creation

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Hurricane Bolter, Interceptor Lance, Misericordia, Relic: Eagle's Eye


Elite:

Vexillus Praetor
Vexilla Magnifica, Guardian Spear

Contemptor-Achillus
Achillus Dread Spear, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter

Contemptor-Achillus
Achillus Dread Spear, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter


Troops:

Guardians x3
Sentinel Blade x3, Storm Shield x3

Guardians x3
Guardian Spear x3

Guardians x3
Guardian Spear x3


Heavy Support:

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
Spiculus Bolt Launcher, Arachnus Storm Cannon x2

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
Spiculus Bolt Launcher, Telemon Caestus x2, Twin Plasma Projector x2


Dedicated Transport:

Coronus Grav Carrier
Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

Points: 1992


General idea is to have the Sword&Board guys in the backfield for objective grabbing and protection of the dakka Telemon. The dakka Telemon also stays back and does its thing. The other 6 Guardians will be riding the pimp mobile into battle alongside the captains while the vexillus praetor advances with the choppy dreads as the second wave. I count on the enemy to focus on the coronus or the fisto telemon being the scariest/fastest targets so that the achillae will reach battle relatively safe.

Yes I know that the Coronus is probably not the most competitive choice as it is not that great at dealing damage and also pretty expensive. It is fast and really tough though. And it is gorgeous! I love the model.

The army should be compact enough to be completely shielded by the praetor should I not get the first turn. I'm tempted to give the Captains VotBG though that would leave me with only 3 CP for the game. I guess I could also FGLTC the achillus dreads to Keep them safe but then they also dont get to shoot the first turn. FGLTC for the Telemon does not seem smart as he'd not be able to fire his Plasma projectors after DS....



Any suggestions?

Fill out your last eight points with misericordia...seems like a fun list. The Coronus is a bit underwhelming IMO. I'd swap it with a caladius if you can.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Fill out your last eight points with misericordia...seems like a fun list. The Coronus is a bit underwhelming IMO. I'd swap it with a caladius if you can.

Can't. They are on my Shopping list tho. I'm curious how it will perform. It seems tough enough to deliver my Guardians into battle quickly and be a nuisance after. Noone ever seems to use one, i have never seen one fielded

The corvus is quite good in 30k, as it has almost the same amount of firepower as the calidius and still transports stuff, but in 40k its not nearly as killy as the battle tank.

Not to mention, its rare you'd want to put custodies in a transport anyway, as every 1 you roll kills a 3 wound or more model.

The Orion is the only real option custodies have for transport as it tends to live more than 1 turn even when focused by most armies.

I'm seriously considering giving the spear dreadnaughts a play at my next plays as match. They look like they can do serious damage, but they are resilient and not as costly as say, a Telemon. Well, about 140 vs 230(? I forget). If I can will it into melee, it can pretty consistently take tanks to pound town.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm seriously considering giving the spear dreadnaughts a play at my next plays as match. They look like they can do serious damage, but they are resilient and not as costly as say, a Telemon. Well, about 140 vs 230(? I forget). If I can will it into melee, it can pretty consistently take tanks to pound town.

The problem is that 'IF' is pretty big.
Against a decent player its not making melee, its always going to be in the open for atleast 1 turn and 1 turn is all that is needed against a decent list.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The corvus is quite good in 30k, as it has almost the same amount of firepower as the calidius and still transports stuff, but in 40k its not nearly as killy as the battle tank.

Not to mention, its rare you'd want to put custodies in a transport anyway, as every 1 you roll kills a 3 wound or more model.

The Orion is the only real option custodies have for transport as it tends to live more than 1 turn even when focused by most armies.

Huh, the Orion is double the cost and 4 wounds more. Set up next to a vexilla it also has a -1 to hit against Alphastrike. Not sure how an Orion is much more durable than a coronus. Especially for the Points.

My mistake, I actually confused his question with another model.

Thought he was talking about the coronus transport.

Let me give my thoughts on the Orion.

Its good but its a one hit wonder. It rarely survives past turn 2 and quite often does make it past turn 1. However it does often get your payload where they need to be and is good at blowing away screens. So I find it effective but don't think it will stick around.

Now the Achilles I think is quite underated atm. Now it is a very conditional unit. Its got to cross the field somehow and with only 4 attacks even in melee it gets bogged down in tarpits. However it is an exceptional monster/tank/heavy infantry hunter. And its cheapest loadout is around 140 point making it great for its points.

Deep striking them or having one catch a ride on an Orion. Can help get them get where they need to go.

And that cheap load out I mentioned they have 2 Rapid 2 S5 AP -1 guns so even if your opponent has a screen you can drop effectively 8 heavy bolter shots hitting on 2s. Then take a pot shot with their S8 gun at whatever was being protected. Its heavy D3 so hitting on 3s and low number of shots but honestly I see it as more of an extra then anything. If you don't make your charge. Then you have a dread or two threating them for the next turn. I advise doing this with 2 dreads to box in your target. And if it does work and they blow away the 2 dreads. Well you have lost 280 points. And they have draw fire away from more valuable things like your grav-tanks or bike squads.

If you wanting to try and take out Knights in a Ranged Duel. Then your going to want Telemons But even then I would say your odds aren't great. 2 Telemons vs for example a crusader might do the job. But its going to be close and definitely wont be in one turn. Also telemons are fairly easy to tie up in melee So you will need to screen them. Plus they don't want to move so they don't take negatives to hit.

Our best point for point Knight killers are Aquilon terminators but they do have difficulty getting in melee like everything else and are more vulnerable DS imo. (Higher Invul yes but the lower toughness I think is worse.) Also much more expensive then our Spear Dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to mention Point for point Pallas are almost as good as the Telemon for Knight hunting. 3 Pallas do on average 2.8 wounds compared to a Telemons 2.96.

Pallas aren't as durable but more mobile and keeps you from having all your eggs in one basket. Also they can't be tied up in melee as easily.

Can we talk about the Valoris death star? I see no reason not to take 3 grav tanks, valoris, and a magnifica to base my army around.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Can we talk about the Valoris death star? I see no reason not to take 3 grav tanks, valoris, and a magnifica to base my army around.

It’s already a thing - the Custodes Castle. You can sub a Telemon in for the caladius (or just add them in) to taste.

So we'd be looking at a max 8CP army? What would the Custodes Castle look like?

BN

Valoris, Sh Captain = HQ
3x3 squads of Guard = troops
1x Vexhilla
2x Callidus
2x Telemon

? 1x Pallas Grav-attack bike

1999pts.