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Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

You will have very few CPs! What is the point of giving misers to the sagitarius guard, when they are almost pure shooters? If I am thinking of the right unit, it's the ones with bolters right? You're better off giving the misers to the bike and the vexhilla. You will be sure to kill anything that looks at you funny with this list!

miser's are an auto-include on sag guard. for 4 points you go from 3 attacks at str 5 no app to 4 attacks str 5 with 2 ap.

There are very few things in the game more efficient.

Since we’re all posting lists, here’s one I just tried:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

Captain-General Trajann Valoris

Vexillus Praetor: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta): Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta): Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher, Telemon Caestus: Twin Plasma Projector

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter

Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta): Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta): Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
3x Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Went up a chaos “all the purge guns+Discos+knights” list and thankfully went first for the win. The idea of the Telemon is to be a countercharge unit for knights and such and can contribute from turn 1 and be a good countercharge unit along with Trajann, he replaced my Aquilons for anti-knight melee. It was an experiment, but I really like the idea of fist+gun Telemon...shoots well enough and S16 D4 is nothing to sneeze at.

I think we all have to be prepared for point increases on the pallus, calladus, telemon, and aquilon units. They are certainly under pointed and overused in the tournament setting.

I have not been including those in my list lately for those reasons.

Thoughts?

Not sure the telemon needs a price increase. Points reduction on the fists would be better in my view. They are ridiculously priced but would be nice in some scenarios since the tele can be neutralized by being stuck in cc.

Aquillons are overcosted actually, and the pallas is dead on.

If they nerf the tanks (which they probably should) they need to reduce points cost on all custodies infantry to make up for it.

We cannot compete at top tables without the tanks atm (imo) so we need some kind of compensation if they nerf them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
miser's are an auto-include on sag guard. for 4 points you go from 3 attacks at str 5 no app to 4 attacks str 5 with 2 ap.

There are very few things in the game more efficient.

My Kingdom to be able to run Sagitarii as Troops.

I would say the Caladius should get a points buff to be similar to the shooty Telemon. Pallas...maybe a small one? I think it's fine though. Aquilons are also O.K. Their issue is delivery not cost.

raddman33 wrote:
I think we all have to be prepared for point increases on the pallus, calladus, telemon, and aquilon units. They are certainly under pointed and overused in the tournament setting.

I have not been including those in my list lately for those reasons.

Thoughts?

I could see the gravs going up but not the rest. Aquilons die too easy and honestly most time don't make their points back. Telemons honestly if anything are a bit overcosted as well. Their "Best" setup is double arachnus which leaves them very vulnerable to being tied up in melee and unless the opponent is running a bunch of vehicles again is just mediocre.

The mobility of the Gravs and their inability to get tied up is what makes them kingly. Honestly though they only need a minor bump at best as they very vulnerable to S8 weapons and ap -2 weapons. They are not the dominating presence that Knights are and are must easier to deal with.

That being said this is GW and they have a tenancy to over correct. So I fully expect to see custodes reduced to a bottom tier army. Though I will give credit and say they have been doing better lately and think Castellean was spot on. (The FW Knights one however was still pretty bad.)

I love that the second we get a few top 10 finishes, people are saying Custodes need a nerf. Can't we point to the Meta and say hey, there are like 3 armies that have consistently dominated the meta for the past few months. But sure, let's beat down Custodes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Currently a big fan of the following list:

Spearhead

Trajaan
Vexilla magnifica
Pallas Grav
Calidius grav tank x3

Spearhead

Dawneagle warlord/w auric aquillus, superior creation, VotBG

Telemon/w Double storm cannon
3x Sagittarum Guard x3/w miser's



2000 points on the dot, Sag guard either hang back with trajan buff's or advance around the table to take objectives (hopefully hugging cover for the nice 1+ save). Pallas and bike captain tear up a weak flank. If your opponent is playing a concentrated force you keep your sag guard near your tanks to toss tanglefoots and counterassault.

I'm honest not sure what the apeal of Sag guard is. They basically have an assault hb with a kinda crappy alt mode. Coming in at nearly 60 points a pop too they need a rework.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I love that the second we get a few top 10 finishes, people are saying Custodes need a nerf. Can't we point to the Meta and say hey, there are like 3 armies that have consistently dominated the meta for the past few months. But sure, let's beat down Custodes.

Sometimes its best to hope for a quick small nerf then a gigantic ban hammer later.

Ultimately I think Caladii (I made that up) are going to be less and less of a “problem” in tournaments as people start planning to kill them; even in my own games I’ve seen a shift in focus to killing them vs targeting my bikes. And unlike the T8 3++ Castellan they replaced, a -1 to-hit Caladius is a stormraven with a 5++...and we’ve been killing stormravens since the beginning of 8th edition. They just hit hard enough that you have to kill them, and a lot of lists don’t bring the means to do so or focus on them appropriately.
What I would really like though is to change the other gun to match the Telemon version. Give some variety.

Yeah and has anyone SEEN the new stuff marines are getting. Yeah I don't think after that dex drops we are going to be on anyones radar for awhile.

Khadorstompy wrote:
Yeah and has anyone SEEN the new stuff marines are getting. Yeah I don't think after that dex drops we are going to be on anyones radar for awhile.

Eh, it's good, but it's still debatable if it will be enough to make them competitive. The Caladius will almost certainly be taking a hit at some point. The rest of us is probably fine though.

The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

The big problem is 'if". It plagues the Aquilons too to be honest. We have no good delivery system and so the melee aspect of the army, while statistically powerful, falls apart. Even a re-roll charges aura (which barely gets it above 50% success rate for coming out of Deep Strike) would go a long way.

In contrast to Fezzik, I do think Jetbikes are fine though. A Jetbike/Caladius list even just placed well at a GT. They're as strong as ever.

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The point is, if marines are getting +to hit, exploding 6s, FnP against mortal wounds, and basically a ton of other buffs, I don't see how they nerf Custodes. If these changes go live as is, I can see SMs get a major boost up the rankings, especiallys CS and RG.

I really hope there are some boosts to Custodes coming, because right now the base units are basically subpar, and you have to go FW if you want any chance of success. Callidi, Telemons, Aquilons, and Trajan. Forget bikes, forget Custodes Guard, forget anything in the base codex.

Do you think the codex units are bad in general, or just in this current meta? Because it hard for me to believe that S5, T5 units that all hit on 2+ with 2+/4++ saves is bad. They still hit very hard in melee.....once and if they get there.

The big problem is 'if". It plagues the Aquilons too to be honest. We have no good delivery system and so the melee aspect of the army, while statistically powerful, falls apart. Even a re-roll charges aura (which barely gets it above 50% success rate for coming out of Deep Strike) would go a long way.

In contrast to Fezzik, I do think Jetbikes are fine though. A Jetbike/Caladius list even just placed well at a GT. They're as strong as ever.

Yes I agree with you on that. It's a pity though...for example I really love the Custodes Warden models and I like to play them, but it is just frustrating that very often they just don't make the assault. I mostly play them in reserve with from golden light they come, but even then making the charge is often very tough.
I do like the bikes and the caladius generally, but I hate that you basically HAVE to take them. I mean don't get me wrong, if you just play with your best buddies and you all agree not to take super maxed out meta lists you can play what you want, but even then it can be very frustrating if you play a mostly infantry custodes list.

Wardens would be worth their points if they dropped the FnP by 1, or they gave them access to other strats. At they are, they are a slightly less crappy version of custodes terminators. I would love to see Wardens gain access to some form of Anti-tank weapon, or make the GW terminators get access to like a Krak round for their launchers.

It's obvious GW was trying to make an all infantry melee elite army, which is fine, unless you don't give them any anti-tank, or a way to get into melee. FGLTC is fine, but you have to wait until turn 2, and they match could be over by then.

GW needs to give non-FW Custodes something to handle tanks, infantry based, long range, and they need a boost to their charging.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wardens would be worth their points if they dropped the FnP by 1, or they gave them access to other strats. At they are, they are a slightly less crappy version of custodes terminators. I would love to see Wardens gain access to some form of Anti-tank weapon, or make the GW terminators get access to like a Krak round for their launchers.

It's obvious GW was trying to make an all infantry melee elite army, which is fine, unless you don't give them any anti-tank, or a way to get into melee. FGLTC is fine, but you have to wait until turn 2, and they match could be over by then.

GW needs to give non-FW Custodes something to handle tanks, infantry based, long range, and they need a boost to their charging.

Help with charges for custodes infantry would be nice, but a +5 FnP for Wardens would be too powerful to be honest in my opinion. That would arguably make them the best infantry melee unit in the game

Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

You want a T5 BS2+ 2+/4++/5+++ 3W 4A model for 57 points?

Yeah that aint happening.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

I think they should give us more command points (either by making it easier to fill out a battalion or reducing the cost of strategems). Everyone else has a ton of good stuff. Why can't we have some more goodies?

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:
I think they should give us more command points (either by making it easier to fill out a battalion or reducing the cost of strategems). Everyone else has a ton of good stuff. Why can't we have some more goodies?

Because our basic troops are HQ's in any other army, and our Elites can punch knights to death?

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

The problem started when GW thought a Melee heavy low unit count army could compete with horde armies on a d6 probability system.

The d6 system is a problem, but removing things like the weapon skill system completely instead of expanding and improving it was also stupid. It devalued elite units more than average ones and placed way more importance on who gets the charge.
What I mean by that is, when a unit of genestealers charges another infantry unit, it doesn't matter if the charged unit are space marines or custodians, they'll most likely die because of the sheer number of attacks....but there should be a difference, Custodes should be harder to overcome since they are fewer. And yes, they have better saves etc, but again the sheer number of attacks forces wounds anyway, no matter the save.

Also they could have made way more interesting special abilities for low model count infantry armies.
For example the custodes are described as indomitable guardians, to represent this they could have given them a melee overwatch with their spears on a 5+ when they are charged and the charging enemy unit has a certain size....like when it exeeds the number of the custodes unit by at least 5. Thats just off the top of my head, but you get my point.