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Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? They cost almost 70pts per. They have a S8 3d weapon, and a S5 1d weapon. They have week shooting. They have a 5++ just for being custodes. They are pretty much the gold standard for hard to kill elite infantry. But no where near over powered.

1. Cost
2. Elite Slot
3. Can't FGLTC without CP
4. Hard to get into charge distance
5. Kinda worthless until turn 2/3 cus of their movement speed.

Yes I am serious, and you sound like hitting with S8 AP-2 is not good? They don't have the best shooting but I would not call doing 2dmg per shot weak while always hitting on 2+.

And yes, if they also had a 5+ FnP they would be a very strong contender for the best melee infantry unit in the game.

Ehh, I don't agree with that either. They're already 6++ and resoundingly 'meh'. The BS is good but the gun is fairly lame (not enough AP for TEQ, not enough volume for GEQ and not enough strength for armor). The melee is great but, as noted before, they don't really survive to get there. 5++ might actually get them there.

Ok all things aside am I the only one to whom it's absolutely ridiculous that the game has evolved into something where a unit like Wardens is considered "meh" and if you were to give them a 5+++ they would just make the cut. I am not talking about the meta here. If the game requires such absurd levels of powercreep for non titanic and flying units to be viable, there is something wrong with the game on a deeper level.

There are definitely some issues, yeah. The problem is shooting is SO lethal. If you can't survive a round of fire pouring into you and keep MOST of your strength intact, you need to be able to Hit INSTANTLY or you're obsolete. A shooting unit is good if it can hide and then fire (our Caladius out runs and put ranges most anything, for example, part of what makes Tank Commanders great is the board clearing range) or if it can eat a round and return fire (all Mechanicum Knights with Machine Spirit Resurgent).

Melee just isn't made tough enough to do that, even our melee. So it needs to Hit INSTANTLY or fall by the wayside (like Jetbikes who have Fly and 14" Move or Blood Angels with 3D6" charge, e.t.c.).

Character rule also helps here because you can hide them behind an advancing screen (Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers).

See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

Like I said, my suggestion was just an example off the top of my head, but I don't see how it would be gamebreaking. You still only hit on 5s and the whole thing only comes into play if the enemy unit exceeds your own units model count by a certain extent. If you were to playtest this and it proved too strong you could also limit it to only apply when your custodes are currently holding and defending an objective or something like that. My point is there are so many interesting directions GW could go with this.
Also don't get me wrong, I am a custodes player myself so I would of course love to have Wardens with a 5+++, but I also think that would be a small bandaid to a bigger problem, like we have already discussed.

As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

I thought London GT followed ETC rules and didn’t allow FW anyway?

 greyknight12 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

I thought London GT followed ETC rules and didn’t allow FW anyway?

London GT is ITC, actually.

Considering London GT doesn't even know how to ban known cheaters, maybe this is a step in the wrong direction?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See, your suggestion actually would be game breaking, because there is no way to counter or avoid it. Custodians with spears just become unchargable.

My suggestion was just aimed at making JUST THE WARDENS way harder to kill.

Small elite armies suffer from the d6 system the worst. Because it's easy for Guard to shrug off losses if they don't matter. But every single model in a Custodes army matters. And each model has to earn it's points back, or it fails.

That means that 1 squad of three custodes guard need to kill 3 squads of guard just to not be worthless. We need to expand the d6 systems or Custodes will continue to fall farther off the chart.

That all being said, has anyone seen the new stuff from GW for Ultras? Dear god....

That would be good logic if the game came down to tableing as the only way to win. Killing two guard squads would put you up on kill points even if you were down on total points and tge value of a unit is not just in what it kills

what kind of moron decides to ban models that GW themselves made the rules for at a major GT?

Oh well, its their tourney and Im not even close enough to think about going so not my loss.

Audustum wrote:
As an update on our FW stuff, London GT just banned all Custodes beta units.

LGT is not exactly a high point in the 40k scene. After last year I'm suprised anyone considers it a major event.

Curious, what do current lists that aren't just 1500+ points in tanks look like? my main army is sisters so I can supplement troops from there

Don't need to be super competitive, just get my feet wet.

Essentially they are 1500pts of Aquillons Terminators, Custodes Terminators, Troops, and Jetbikes.

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

Sneggy wrote:
Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

If i remember the math right, the pistol and buckler are better 100% of the time.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Wait is it really that bad, or is it just that marines are almost as good but much cheaper?

 iGuy91 wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Just starting out with Custodes here, taking them as my casual army (so no Calladius.)

Next on the building block are Venetari, whats considered the better load out? Pistol and buckler or Lances?

If i remember the math right, the pistol and buckler are better 100% of the time.

There are one or two niche instances where the pointy stick wins out, but they’re very unlikely to actually occur. Gunslinger is the way to go.

 Grundz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

However I hold out slim hopes that GW will somehow fix the problem they have recently created where the NuMarines are basically better at assaulting then the GodMarines.

I mean, there isn't much we can buff without breaking Custodes, but I am seriously stunned by the new buffs to Marines.

Wait is it really that bad, or is it just that marines are almost as good but much cheaper?

There is a very good chance I am being chicken little here, but yes. Primaris marines are getting buffs that make Custodes look silly. Re-roll charges, D2 shooting, extra attacks on melee, extra shooty auto bolters (4 shot assault), exploding 6s, no cover vs their shooting, character sniping, anti-tank sniper weapons, flying transports, assault transports that potentially act as a turn 1 DS, and they cost about half what Custodes do.

Now, custodes have the wounds, a blanket 4++ on their infantry, a 5+++ on Psychic, and the melee to bully knights, but we also cost 75pts per troop model, and our terminators cost just under 100 per model. We can't

A basic custodian is 52 points. 56 if you opt for the missy. 57 if you go sword and board.

I get that you're upset, but at least be accurate with your objections.

Thing is, d3 damage is still really, really good vs primaris. We have d3 damage in spades, and most primaris shooting wounds on 5s. We might need to re-tool some things though. Their vehicles are still stupidly over-priced, so we're not likely going to need to worry about our anti-tank a ton.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Thing is, d3 damage is still really, really good vs primaris. We have d3 damage in spades, and most primaris shooting wounds on 5s. We might need to re-tool some things though. Their vehicles are still stupidly over-priced, so we're not likely going to need to worry about our anti-tank a ton.

I'm still pushing around points to figure out a list, but it really seems like custodes in cover with -1 to hit are going to come on top vs anything but absolutely withering firepower

So my big problem has been keeping my flag with my units I want to protect, ala tanks with fly and or terminators. He's a character, so he can and usually does get targeted by a sniper or something with character rules, a psyker or something, and dropped like he's hot. Or, he can't keep up with the tanks and I have to FGLTC him, which costs CP.

I am having trouble keeping him alive, or with the units he's supposed to buff. I want to start experimenting with the flag guy in terminator armor. His shooting isn't terrible, and he can come in with the terminators for no CP.

I just footslog the Vexila and keep him out of los as much as possible. Hardly groundbreaking but I’ve just started Custodes & I must admit I’m finding their bolter equiv shooting (spears & axes) a bit lacklustre. The d2 is nice but honestly they feel like they should be rapid fire 2. I know that melee is where it’s at but it’s painful to take down screens without bikes.

Malefic666 wrote:
I just footslog the Vexila and keep him out of los as much as possible. Hardly groundbreaking but I’ve just started Custodes & I must admit I’m finding their bolter equiv shooting (spears & axes) a bit lacklustre. The d2 is nice but honestly they feel like they should be rapid fire 2. I know that melee is where it’s at but it’s painful to take down screens without bikes.

Lastrum Bolters on the Aquilons can help you there since they are Rapid 2, but yeah, screens are tough without allies or Jetbike Bolters.

So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

I like to use a vex in terminator armor and give him the Castellan relic, nominate trajann. DS DS trajann in, and when he is attacked, jump the vex in to him. This works well with the +1 attack and with the -1 to hit.

This is an effective way to make sure the banner keeps up.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

Maybe we’ll get better shooting now SM have been thrown a bone. If we could have the beta guns as troops or maybe rapid fire 2 / assault 3 spears that would help.

I get that and understand Custodes are all about melee (though not everything is ‘that’ good at actually wounding) but with no transports and only FTGLTC for 9” charges I’m all ears for how to ensure that melee happens? Especially with our footslogging units like Custodian Guard.

I’m genuinely struggling a bit with Custodes as I regularly play against lists with 90 Plaguebearers / 60-80 Gaunts & Stealers, mech Guard with 60+ IG... Or Knights/CSM Knights

Against Nids recently my DAShield Captain charged a Flyrant, hit 5 or 6 times (basically didn’t miss) and wounded once (5+ to wound with re-roll), he did no wounds.. I was like WTf? A SC should take a good chunk of wounds off a Flyrant. My 3x3 Custodian Guard tanked a lot of shooting (thanks to the SS/sword) from those horrible Hive Guard that don’t need LOS but hardly saw melee despite me pushing them up as aggressively as possible. Their shooting was negligible, a few Gaunts a turn.

My next build is to drop the 2 x Caladius for 9 Wardens with axes. Drop them in aggressively with a TA Vexilla and Trajan.

Im seriously wondering if the 5 CPs the Custodes Guard bring is worth bringing the Guard for. For their price I can have 5 bikes. 5 bikes that do 60 shots at 12” and move quickly around the board.

So, vs. Hordes axes are rather pointless. Sure, they'll drop the big stuff fast, but against hordes, sword and board work great in my experience. You get added suitability, and still wound on 3s. You can also go spears and do just as well.

Hordes do well against Custodes if you don't have a lot of CP especially. There are a lot of strats that allow us to fight first, or fight out of turn, or just get a free fight phase. Also, the spear buffs or sword buffs. You need to have a lot of CP to take down hordes as Custodes, in my experience.

Malefic666 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the nearest living specimens to the holy E himself, they are surprisingly bad at shooting compared to their weaker/lesser brethren.

They still follow OLD bolter rules, they basically have master crafted bolters. That all being said, if you are shooting with Custodes Infantry, you're doing it wrong.

It's like the old Pistol saying in the Army. A Pistol is only good for getting to another Rifle. Shooting for Custodes is just icing on the cake that is Custodes Melee attacks. Hello Mr. squad of anything, I would like to hit you 12 times right now with my Axe/Spear/Sword/Fist for obscene damage, then I would like to stab you with this S5 dagger. Because I hate your existence.

Maybe we’ll get better shooting now SM have been thrown a bone. If we could have the beta guns as troops or maybe rapid fire 2 / assault 3 spears that would help.

I get that and understand Custodes are all about melee (though not everything is ‘that’ good at actually wounding) but with no transports and only FTGLTC for 9” charges I’m all ears for how to ensure that melee happens? Especially with our footslogging units like Custodian Guard.

I’m genuinely struggling a bit with Custodes as I regularly play against lists with 90 Plaguebearers / 60-80 Gaunts & Stealers, mech Guard with 60+ IG... Or Knights/CSM Knights

Against Nids recently my DAShield Captain charged a Flyrant, hit 5 or 6 times (basically didn’t miss) and wounded once (5+ to wound with re-roll), he did no wounds.. I was like WTf? A SC should take a good chunk of wounds off a Flyrant. My 3x3 Custodian Guard tanked a lot of shooting (thanks to the SS/sword) from those horrible Hive Guard that don’t need LOS but hardly saw melee despite me pushing them up as aggressively as possible. Their shooting was negligible, a few Gaunts a turn.

My next build is to drop the 2 x Caladius for 9 Wardens with axes. Drop them in aggressively with a TA Vexilla and Trajan.

Im seriously wondering if the 5 CPs the Custodes Guard bring is worth bringing the Guard for. For their price I can have 5 bikes. 5 bikes that do 60 shots at 12” and move quickly around the board.

This all sounds like you aren't optimized enough but were facing fairly optimized lists (except the Shield-Captain, that was just unlucky).

Long ago, before the FW units got rules, we learned that outside a rare scenario or two, an optimized Custodes list is 10+ Jetbikes and the Vexillus. FW now has also made Orions, Caladii, Pallas and Telemons viable.

As an example, take an Outrider of Jetbikes with a Jetbike Captains, the Rusty 17 and 2 Caladii. Do whatever with the extra points. You'll drop them like a sack of dirt.

I cannot for the life of me make a 1.5k pure Custodes list I like. Not enough points to wiggle in fun toys and a battalion...

 iGuy91 wrote:
I cannot for the life of me make a 1.5k pure Custodes list I like. Not enough points to wiggle in fun toys and a battalion...

Keeping pure hurts, a lot. From an optimization standpoint you could just drop the battalion idea. You can do a Spearhead and an Outrider of: Shield-Captain, 3x Caladius Grav-Tanks, Vexillus Praetor with Magnifica, Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, 1x Vertus Praetors and 2x Pallas for 1,498. You'll have 5 CP, but all you really want it for is Stooping Drive and some re-rolls so it should work.