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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the Telemon "is in a good place..." for people who like to run it in tournaments.

Can't argue with that. Thing is, in tournaments telemons are just OK. They're decent but not overly represented and nerfing them would be removing a perfectly valid option for tournament-level play.

It's been great seeing non-biker spam lists placing highly at events. In fact, just this weekend a pure footstodes list took 2nd at a GT with nearly 1000 points invested in 2 beefy units of aquilon terminators. Not a single caladius, telemon, or vertus praetor in the list.

Basically, if you want to play Custodes, you have to go FW, with the lone exception of Trajan and the Flag bearer. Our troops cost too much to make their cost back, our terminators cost too much to even be a consideration, and our non-FW units are hot garbage (when was the last time someone honestly took a Venerable Landraider or Naught) and our Bikes are considered "that guy".

We are either TFG for being Soupy, or we are TFG for being Mr. FW. There is no inbetween for Custodes.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Basically, if you want to play Custodes, you have to go FW, with the lone exception of Trajan and the Flag bearer. Our troops cost too much to make their cost back, our terminators cost too much to even be a consideration, and our non-FW units are hot garbage (when was the last time someone honestly took a Venerable Landraider or Naught) and our Bikes are considered "that guy".

We are either TFG for being Soupy, or we are TFG for being Mr. FW. There is no inbetween for Custodes.

Tournament players don't see you as TFG! Embrace CompHammer!

Nothing wrong with taking bikes. Actually bikes haven't been meta for a long time because they can't deal with knights. Not just knights, but they can't deal with any sort of vehicle-based list whatsoever. Even discolords and wave serpents have nothing to fear from bikes.

Also that footstodes list I mentioned has a pure Custodes battalion in addition to the 1000 pts of aquilons, so apparently Custodes troops are just fine.

EDIT: Actually the whole list was just a single battalion. Trajann, a bike captain, 3 units of custodian guard, 2 units of aquilons, and a vexillus praetor. Took 2nd place at "Canada's largest Warhammer 40k event". Only outscored by Jim Vesal's daemons list. Man what a beastly list. 2000 points of just 23 infantry and a bike-captain. The only FW units are the terminators. There you go. No more excuses

 slave.entity wrote:
Nothing wrong with taking bikes. Actually bikes haven't been meta for a long time because they can't deal with knights. Not just knights, but they can't deal with any sort of vehicle-based list whatsoever. Even discolords and wave serpents have nothing to fear from bikes.

Also that footstodes list I mentioned has a pure Custodes battalion in addition to the 1000 pts of aquilons, so apparently Custodes troops are just fine.

Just because it placed well once doesn't mean they're 'fine'. We have zero clue what the terrain on those tables was and that's a huge factor. We also don't know if they ran unmodified ITC missions. Someone with a subscription to BCP can at least make sure he didn't get a lucky bracket.

When the Warden Custodes list did well, it was also only on one occasion and specifically exploited a terrain piece on the table. The tables at that tournament all had one very large, LoS blocking L in the center. The Wardens would go in there and deny a huge, central nexus of the board. That won't work on a table with a more open center or a terrain piece with, say, windows. Point being, it's not always a transferable concept and you can bet competitive tournament players prepare for the type of terrain they expect to see at the tournament.

Also, Jetbikes deal with vehicle lists just fine. S6, re-rolling fails tanks most vehicles pretty hard. They're also a natural bane to flyer lists because they can charge and melee flyers. You never saw them much, even when they were supposedly 'popular' (before FW rules came out). Shane Watts did well with them at NOVA, but he still placed worse than the much more popular variant: jamming 3 Shield-Captains on Jetbikes into a list of Astra Militarum and a Castellan Knight.

Knights are a problem for Jetbike spam lists, no doubt, but one bad matchup doesn't disqualify you.

Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

I wouldn't expect bikes to be good against the current 7+ eldar flyer lists that are currently meta if only because at best your two units of bikes can charge two flyers while the others simply move to the other side of the map and shoot them apart. And they could easily have a hard time getting a T1 charge too which means a bunch of them will simply be dead before they even have the chance to charge a plane.

Bikes are good and bike spam is a very "pub-stomp" style list, but they're certainly not TFG competitive compared to the caladius or loyal 32. And taking any sort of super spammy list to a casual game is a pretty silly thing to do anyway so I wouldn't expect to see it much in pick-up games. It's just very one-dimensional. Unlike the actual competitive Custodes lists we're seeing at the moment. No one spams bikes anymore because it doesn't work and probably because it's pretty boring to play.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5?

They re-roll failed wounds on the charge, remember? Which gives each hit a 55% chance to wound. And every wound that does get through is AP-3, D3 damage. Not as good as aquilons or fist Telemon, but still decent.
8 bikes with no aura will do 24.4 wounds on average to a Knight with no CC invul save. Not the best; but the bigger issue is that knights have the ideal ranged and CC weapons to kill bikes efficiently.

On the topic of nerfs, a really great way to change the Caladius would be be to make it only available to pure Custodes armies (since it’s a rare relic and all that). Could do the same for other FW units as well.

People haven't even taken bikes in top placing lists for months now. It's all triple caladius spearhead for the most part. Every once in a while you'll see some aquilons or maybe a single telemon, but rarely actual units of vertus praetors. Even the supreme command of 3 shield-captains has fallen out of favor lately. I can't remember the last time I saw one of those, wow.

Ever since Geoff Robinson won BAO competitive Custodes players pretty much ditched bikes in favor of grav tanks, dreadnoughts, and terminators. May he rest in peace.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Independent Character is 7th Edition, not 8th. You can't put a Vexilla into a squad.

Jetbikes re-roll failed wounds on the charge and are AP-3. Against a standard T7 3+ vehicle, 3 Jetbikes average (assuming Captain for re-roll 1's to Hit) 10.81 wounds. They body most vehicles pretty solidly (even Tank Commanders only have 12 wounds). They one-shot most Eldar flyers.

Sterling191 wrote:
You mean like the exact thing they’ve started phasing in with the new Marine Codex?

Yes exactly. That’s what I was thinking of, it’s great Marines have an incentive to play mono but this should happen for all factions ASAP.

 slave.entity wrote:
I wouldn't expect bikes to be good against the current 7+ eldar flyer lists that are currently meta if only because at best your two units of bikes can charge two flyers while the others simply move to the other side of the map and shoot them apart. And they could easily have a hard time getting a T1 charge too which means a bunch of them will simply be dead before they even have the chance to charge a plane.

Bikes are good and bike spam is a very "pub-stomp" style list, but they're certainly not TFG competitive compared to the caladius or loyal 32. And taking any sort of super spammy list to a casual game is a pretty silly thing to do anyway so I wouldn't expect to see it much in pick-up games. It's just very one-dimensional. Unlike the actual competitive Custodes lists we're seeing at the moment. No one spams bikes anymore because it doesn't work and probably because it's pretty boring to play.

Okay, a lot to unpack here.

1. Lots of Jetbike lists take 3 squads, not 2. 2 is also common though. You'd see both.

2. Most Eldar flyers don't have fantastic volume of fire on their big guns. A Crimson Hunter Exarch gets 2 Bright Lance shots and 2 Pulsar shots per-turn. That's it. You're supposed to use terrain to get close to them (meaning they have to get closer to you than they want to if they want to draw line of sight). Even if you take fire, the CHE only averages 2.28 damage from both Bright Lances combined (with a whopping 46% chance of doing 0 damage) and 1.94 from the Pulse Laser (also with a 46% chance of doing 0). The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting). FYI, that is if there is no Vexilla. You put in a Vexilla and one CHE can't even kill one Jetbike on average.

That said, the Razorwing Jetfighter (what you frequently see besides the CHE) doesn't have Wings of Kaine so you can also abuse his comparative lack of pivots to get close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5?

They re-roll failed wounds on the charge, remember? Which gives each hit a 55% chance to wound. And every wound that does get through is AP-3, D3 damage. Not as good as aquilons or fist Telemon, but still decent.
8 bikes with no aura will do 24.4 wounds on average to a Knight with no CC invul save. Not the best; but the bigger issue is that knights have the ideal ranged and CC weapons to kill bikes efficiently.

On the topic of nerfs, a really great way to change the Caladius would be be to make it only available to pure Custodes armies (since it’s a rare relic and all that). Could do the same for other FW units as well.

Right, I was going to add that. Knights are the only vehicle class that's a huge problem for Jetbikes because of their exact tools. They have enough ranged to weaken the squad when it's incoming and Stomp is actually REALLY painful if the Knight gets to fight first (and with his comparative movement, it's definitely possible).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
People haven't even taken bikes in top placing lists for months now. It's all triple caladius spearhead for the most part. Every once in a while you'll see some aquilons or maybe a single telemon, but rarely actual units of vertus praetors. Even the supreme command of 3 shield-captains has fallen out of favor lately. I can't remember the last time I saw one of those, wow.

Ever since Geoff Robinson won BAO competitive Custodes players pretty much ditched bikes in favor of grav tanks, dreadnoughts, and terminators. May he rest in peace.

This is wrong. Jetbikes placed top 4 just recently. I'll go get it and edit it in.

EDIT: Bridger Hahn took 2nd Place at the GK Open with this list:

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [54 PL, 980pts] ++

+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter . Auric Aquilis

+ Fast Attack +
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 360pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [46 PL, -2CP, 1,020pts] ++
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [-2CP, 85pts]

+ HQ +
Constantine Valdor [10 PL, 185pts]

+ Elites +
Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 120pts]: Storm Shield, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Total: [100 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

Audustum wrote:
The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting).

Did you remember to factor in jinx as well the CHE's re-roll 1s to hit/re-roll wounds against fly? My math is showing me that a single CHE kills ~1.5 bikes on average. Also, competitive CHE's don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

 slave.entity wrote:

Audustum wrote:
The end result is that a sing CHE only has about a 50% chance of killing a single Jetbike model (so using a 175 point model to kill a 90 point model) if it dedicates the entirety of its shooting).

Did you remember to factor in jinx as well the CHE's re-roll 1s to hit/re-roll wounds against fly? My math is showing me that a single CHE kills ~1.5 bikes on average.

You shouldn't be getting jinxed. CHE are not casters like their Hemlock brethren. Jinx only has a 18" range. Your Operative Request Sanctioned Culexus should be zoning that away or you should be chasing the flyers far enough from their psyker support (remember, they have large minimum moves) to keep yourself out of it one way or the other (if the Eldar is sloppy he might also get within 12" for you to 1CP Deny it).

I did include the re-roll 1's on the CHE. I did forget the Fly wounds. I'll add that in a sec.

See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.


EDIT: Also, interesting that the one high placing custodes list you found that used bikes (in a sea of caladius spearheads from the past few months) apparently lost 1st place... to an eldar list with 3 CHEs

 iGuy91 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

Sorry, I appear to be mistaken (?). My friend sent me a pic of a rule that shows guardian squads get +1 attack if they take the vexhilla in the squad. I am at work and haven't looked at my codex in over a year, and thought I had just MISSED this rule. Apparently it's 30k?

I'd also like to add, speaking completely anecdotally as an eldar player who runs a CHE air wing... yeah CHE's wreck custodes bikes lol. I know bikes seem like a good counter to eldar flyers on paper but in practice they don't have the mobility to keep up. Not that bikes are bad. But in the current competitive meta they're not particularly amazing. They're solid picks for sure though.

Also, I don't run a hemlock alongside my CHE's but even without a hemlock I have absolutely no trouble jinxing a biker unit with a warlock skyrunner's 22" move. Especially since the bikes are forced to deploy aggressively if they want to even have a remote chance of making it into charge range.

 slave.entity wrote:
See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.

Alright, there's some issues with this.

1. CHE take both, but alright, we'll factor in the Starcannons too.

2. Most lists don't take 7-9 flyers anymore. That hasn't been a prevalent thing for ages. It's 3-6. Hemlocks are starting to appear, but I only found 2 lists in the last 3 months that made top 4 at a GT with Hemlocks (about as common as seeing Void Raven Bombers). It's not something you should really expect. As I said, you really shouldn't be getting jinxed.

3. Strictly speaking, Starcannons are about a wash against Jetbikes compared to Bright Lances.

Anyway, math to prove the point:

1 CHE with Starcannons against 1 squad of Vertus Praetors:
Starcannons: 2.92 (16% chance of 0 damage, 64% chance of 3 damage or less). Less than half the time the Starcannons kill a single model (and yes, that includes the re-rolls to Wound).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less). Same here.

So the average is a hair over a single model of (and you just used 161 points to kill 90 points), but about 1/3 of the time the Eldar player won't even kill a single Jetbike.

1 CHE with Bright Lances against 1Squad of Vertus Praetors:
Bright Lances: 3.02 (32% chance of 0 damage, 58% chance of 3 damage or less).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less). Same here.

Looks about the same. We're only talking the difference of .1 wounds average.

1 CHE with Starcannons against 1 squad of Vertus Praetors with Vexilla:
Starcannons: 2.33 (25% chance of 0 damage, 73% chance of 3 or less damage)
Pulse Laser: 1.38 (43% chance of 0 damage, 92% chance of 3 or less damage)

Doesn't even kill a model on average, huge chance of whiffing.

1 CHE with Bright Lances against 1Squad of Vertus Praetors:
Bright Lances: 2.43 (43% chance of 0 damage, 67% chance of 3 damage or less).
Pulse Laser: 1.73 (32% chance of 0 damage, 66% chance of 3 or less).

As expected, about the same.

If you multiply all that by three:

The Starcannon loadout averages 13.95 damage to a Jetbike squad, with a solid chance of leaving a survivor due to the volatility (high chances of 0 damage) and because wounds don't spill over. That is without a Vexilla. You also just spent 483 points against 270 and may have only gotten 180.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, S6 takes T7/8 "just fine? How? Hits on 2s, wounds on a 5? Nothing about that screams "look out here I come!"




EDIT:So.....I just learned you can place a Vexhilla Banner IN a unit of Custodian guard. I ALWAYS thought it was a separate unit. Independent Character. Are there other units you can slide it into, or just Custodian guard??

Wait...we can what now? I don't understand.

Sorry, I appear to be mistaken (?). My friend sent me a pic of a rule that shows guardian squads get +1 attack if they take the vexhilla in the squad. I am at work and haven't looked at my codex in over a year, and thought I had just MISSED this rule. Apparently it's 30k?

It's 7th Edition and 30k. Take your pick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
I'd also like to add, speaking completely anecdotally as an eldar player who runs a CHE air wing... yeah CHE's wreck custodes bikes lol. I know bikes seem like a good counter to eldar flyers on paper but in practice they don't have the mobility to keep up. Not that bikes are bad. But in the current competitive meta they're not particularly amazing. They're solid picks for sure though.

Also, I don't run a hemlock alongside my CHE's but even without a hemlock I have absolutely no trouble jinxing a biker unit with a warlock skyrunner's 22" move. Especially since the bikes are forced to deploy aggressively if they want to even have a remote chance of making it into charge range.

Then you're playing bad Jetbike opponents I'd say. Flyers don't have the firepower alone to put them down without getting bodied unless you happen to be spamming Hemlocks. The Warlock should be forced into the Culexus aura and potentially Deny the Witch (and the Custodes Deny the Witch strat is unaffected by the Culexus aura, meaning they effectively get +2 over the Warlock on the roll).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
See my edit. CHE's take don't take bright lances, they take starcannons.

The bikes will definitely be getting jinxed because one of those 7-9 flyers will be a hemlock. And don't forget that CHE's have built-in doom against fly keyword so their S6 starcannons (and S8 pulse lasers of course) re-roll all failed wounds for free.

Anyway, on average 3 CHE's does about 17-18 damage to a unit of bikes so with slightly above average rolls that kills one of those 4-man biker units in a single turn. And if the bikes aren't in range of a T1 charge which is probable, they're going to have to weather two turns of CHE shooting.


EDIT: Also, interesting that the one high placing custodes list you found that used bikes (in a sea of caladius spearheads from the past few months) apparently lost 1st place... to an eldar list with 3 CHEs

My point wasn't that Jetbike tournament lists are everywhere, it was to directly counter your statement that they haven't been seen in months. I even said in this very thread that when they were at their most popular they still weren't actually that common (for other reasons than Eldar flyers though).

Any more examples of jetbike spam placing highly in the past few months though? Because I could easily point to a ton of triple caladius lists. Even the one you posted included triple caladius. And even that list lost to a CHE air wing.

None of this seems to contradict the fact that bikes are no longer the de facto competitive Custodes unit and the fact that bikes don't really work well against eldar flyer spam.

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing? There's really not much they can do against a unit that can simply fly 60" across the map and shoot them with free re-roll wounds for the entire game.

 slave.entity wrote:
Any more examples of jetbike spam placing highly in the past few months though? Because I could easily point to a ton of triple caladius lists. Even the one you posted included triple caladius. And even that list lost to a CHE air wing.

None of this seems to contradict the fact that bikes are no longer the de facto competitive Custodes unit and the fact that bikes don't really work well against eldar flyer spam.

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing?

Uh, goalposts much? I didn't say Jetbikes were the de facto competitive. I actually said they were never that popular even in their prime (twice already). I've also never said Caladius lists weren't good or weren't everywhere? I actually didn't comment on the Caladius lists at all (which are great and are super strong). I'm saying the Jetbikes should be fine against Eldar flyer spam and are 'competitive' lists even if they aren't dominating like some others are. Nothing has a 100% win rate (even Nick Nanavati )

Have you ever actually fielded custodes bikes against a CHE air wing? There's really not much they can do against a unit that can simply fly 60" across the map and shoot them with free re-roll wounds for the entire game.

Sure, on planet bowling ball. Like I said, to get LoS on standard terrain (like NOVA's, which you can find an example of in their primer) they do need to endanger themselves.

You didn't even factor in CHE starcannons or re-roll wounds against fly keyword dude. If you're going to make posts telling me I'm wrong about stuff, at least try to make it convincing.

 slave.entity wrote:
You didn't even factor in CHE starcannons or re-roll wounds against fly keyword dude. If you're going to make posts telling me I'm wrong about stuff, at least try to make it convincing.

I did factor it in? All of that math in the latest post assumes re-rolls to Wound. I also did a separate post including all the starcannons, clearly labelled, just for you.

I mean yeah you factored it in after I explained how competitive flyer lists work... anyway... moving on...

I regret getting wrapped up in this...

 slave.entity wrote:
I mean yeah you factored it in after I explained how competitive flyer lists work... anyway... moving on...

I regret getting wrapped up in this...

Not quite. The re-roll wounds was just because I was multi-tasking too heavily (mea culpa). Bright Lances are also very prevalent in Eldar flyer lists. You asked for Starcannons so I gave them to you though.

What we should really do now is put our collective brainpower together and try to figure out how exactly that footstodes list took 2nd at CCBB with 1000 points of firepike Aquilons.

My guess is he teleported both squads? But that's roughly 40 autohits at S6 AP1 D1. Enough to mulch a bunch of obsec troops I guess. And have them replaced with your own, impossible to remove, objective-holding golden god terminators.

Meanwhile the 3 units of custodian guard are probably sitting on objectives near their deployment zone while providing fire support for the midfield?

I'm really tempted to expand my custodes collection to field this list now.

Were they actually all with firepikes? I guess that helps vs flyers. But i thought inside 12 the bolters were technically a slightly more consistent (and cheaper) option.

 slave.entity wrote:
What we should really do now is put our collective brainpower together and try to figure out how exactly that footstodes list took 2nd at CCBB with 1000 points of firepike Aquilons.

My guess is he teleported both squads? But that's roughly 40 autohits at S6 AP1 D1. Enough to mulch a bunch of obsec troops I guess. And have them replaced with your own, impossible to remove, objective-holding golden god terminators.

Meanwhile the 3 units of custodian guard are probably sitting on objectives near their deployment zone while providing fire support for the midfield?

I'm really tempted to expand my custodes collection to field this list now.

It might be similar to the Warden list. Drop a squad in LoS blocking terrain (like a magic box) and use it to zone out. Another squad can go backfield.

With that list, he's also denying "kill more" fairly reliably.

It was a unit of 5 and a unit of 6 aquilons, all firepikes. It is a buttload of shots and if he really teleported both units in then he seems to have a pretty good chance of just flat out wiping the opponent's obsec units off a midfield or backfield point. After that, you have a 44 wounds of T5/2+/4++ which almost feels like DE grotesque-level durability but with 12" flamers. It'd be an extremely difficult pair of units to shift. Fat units of Aquilons is so dope, I love it.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Were they actually all with firepikes? I guess that helps vs flyers. But i thought inside 12 the bolters were technically a slightly more consistent (and cheaper) option.

If I remember right, the Bolters are basically equal to the Pikes except on Overwatch and against T10-T11. The math is somewhere in this thread. If he's expecting lots of penalties to Hit, could be another reason.