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So how are the spears master crafted bolters but the actual bolters they carry are not? I are confused. I mean, I see WHY they did it but still. It would thematically stick that they use master crafted bolters...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So how are the spears master crafted bolters but the actual bolters they carry are not? I are confused. I mean, I see WHY they did it but still. It would thematically stick that they use master crafted bolters...

They are “master crafted bolters”. It’s why they’re Assault 3.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Achillus was 140 if you took the storm bolters.
I’m in the sky is falling camp, loss of S8 was huge. Even with Trajan re-rolls (but no -1 to hit) accelerator tanks lose to leman russes while being 30 points more expensive, with the new beam gun they can win but cost 50 points more. And they are much worse against the T4 2 wound spam that is coming.

The flat 2 damage on the new Twin Iliastus accelerator cannon actually makes them very slightly better against T4 2 wound spam (See figures: Left is Strength 8, Damage D3, Right is Strength 7, Damage 2).

Serious_Callers_Only wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Achillus was 140 if you took the storm bolters.
I’m in the sky is falling camp, loss of S8 was huge. Even with Trajan re-rolls (but no -1 to hit) accelerator tanks lose to leman russes while being 30 points more expensive, with the new beam gun they can win but cost 50 points more. And they are much worse against the T4 2 wound spam that is coming.

The flat 2 damage on the new Twin Iliastus accelerator cannon actually makes them very slightly better against T4 2 wound spam (See figures: Left is Strength 8, Damage D3, Right is Strength 7, Damage 2).

What program are you using there? Looks nifty. Currently I'm using a combo of Anydice and the FoB calc

Also, appspot picked up the update, so update your BS data for the new stuff. (or it could fall over again, try in a couple hours once it fixes itself)

Something that hasn't been noted that ive seen

Bolter custodes now have combi guns which I can't remember if that is new, they can fire both guns at -1 to hit if they like

^^

It's not new, but you would never use the combi function to fire both before as you would be at huge risk of losing wounds from your squad.

New troop options, big win. nerf on calidius was expected and it makes sense.

Nerf on the aquillon termies was pretty dumb, they needed a points decrease of 5 points not an increase. Its understandable comparing them to the GW ones, but since those were overcosted too it was stupid.

The change to the Telemon makes sense as well, but they should have reduced its points cost a bit with this change.

If they drop regular CG down 4 points each, and add sisters of silence as a -80pt troop option we will be in a good place.

The points drop on venetari is welcome as well, and they might see some action now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Callidus is now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.

You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.

Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.

 grouchoben wrote:
Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.

The old statline was a flat 3 bonus attacks wasnt it? So that's a nerf.

blaktoof wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Callidus is now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.

You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.

I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.

 JNAProductions wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Callidus is now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.

You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.

I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.

Could I ask what you mean by the term 'as effective'.

For example, you say the new guns are half as effective vs a T7 target now. By my calculations the expected damage value for the new Str 7 guns vs a T7 3+ target is 5.55 wounds. The old guns at Str 8 do 7.41 wounds. That would mean that the new guns have about 75% the expected damage output of the old value, not 50%.

Spartacus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Callidus is now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

The IIlastius cannon was never meant to be anti tank is the problem, all of your comments are basically hiding the backdrop of you want the cheaper more shots gun to be good at both anti tank and anti infantry.

You could always take the heavy blaze cannon which has the same number of anti infantry shots or you can fire 2 shots at S9 -4 ap d3+3 damage with a re-roll to the wound roll....which is +d3 more damage per shot than beta rules.

I'm just providing math. I made no comments to any other effect.

Could I ask what you mean by the term 'as effective'.

For example, you say the new guns are half as effective vs a T7 target now. By my calculations the expected damage value for the new Str 7 guns vs a T7 3+ target is 5.55 wounds. The old guns at Str 8 do 7.41 wounds. That would mean that the new guns have about 75% the expected damage output of the old value, not 50%.

So, it went from S8 D3 to S7 D2.

Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).

 JNAProductions wrote:

Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).

It was damage D3 before, not a flat 3. That would have been truly bonkers.

They just changed it to a standard damage 2 instead of having to roll D3 damage for each hit, but statistically that's the same amount of expected damage.

Spartacus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Against T7, it went from 2/3 hits wounding at 3 damage apiece (for 2 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed) to 1/2 hits wounding at 2 damage apiece (for 1 expected damage per hit, assuming no saves allowed).

It was damage D3 before, not a flat 3. That would have been truly bonkers.

They just changed it to a standard damage 2 instead of having to roll D3 damage for each hit, but statistically that's the same amount of expected damage.

Well, that explains my error.

Nevermind, ignore my math.

Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?

So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Sneaky buff to the Gallatus - +1d3 extra attacks with the sword. I really like that profile now, it's tanky at 2+/4++/6+++, -1 to hit in CC, and now has enough attacks to somewhat offset its S7 blade. Might be worth a serious revisit.

The old statline was a flat 3 bonus attacks wasnt it? So that's a nerf.

Nah, extra hits on a 6 to hit. The new profile is strictly better.

 Elfric wrote:
Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?

Allarus are in the codex and take axes/spears and bastilus grenade launchers. They have a bunch of stratagems that allow them to do fun stuff but they’re generally not seen as a competitive choice.
Aquilons are FW and have a few options, more commonly they take Lastrum Storm Bolters and Solerite Power Gauntlets, Twin Adrathic Destructors and Gauntlets, or Firepikes and Gauntlets. They just got a 5 point increase to put them in line with the base cost of Allarus.

Malefic666 wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Hey guys I'm thinking of getting into Custodes as something to run along side my Deathwatch. What is the difference.between the Alarus and Aquilion Terminators?

Allarus are in the codex and take axes/spears and bastilus grenade launchers. They have a bunch of stratagems that allow them to do fun stuff but they’re generally not seen as a competitive choice.
Aquilons are FW and have a few options, more commonly they take Lastrum Storm Bolters and Solerite Power Gauntlets, Twin Adrathic Destructors and Gauntlets, or Firepikes and Gauntlets. They just got a 5 point increase to put them in line with the base cost of Allarus.

Yeah, you pay for either good stratagems [allarus] or great weapons [aquilons]

I think to possible, that this change from beta was them trying to:
- balance FW against the codex
- make the custodes feel more of a close/mid range army, not a gun line
And it’s possible that they may adjust again in CA19 for overall balance against the game as a whole (ie allarus reduction)

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.

I don't think the Orion is strictly bad at it's new points cost though. The Coronus just needs to get the "better" blaze cannon and then it will be quite a good choice, and even with these rules changes being recent I'm not discounting future FAQs changing them again; I think a lot of the push was to bring them into the fold of actual rules and out of beta ahead of the fall FAQ.
I think that (if $$$ isn't an issue) running one of each flyer might be viable; they both have a giant "shoot me" sticker on them and will distract from anything on the ground getting shot at; though if your opponent has no vehicles the Ares is kind of wasted. But if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper.
On the other hand, Aquilons deepstriking and bikes being fast means you can probably spend the points on more dudes instead of a shiny gunboat...488 is another 5 aquilons with firepikes, 5 vertus praetors or even 4 agmatus with pules lasers.

The flat number of shots on pulse laser bikes is a massive improvement. I suspect theyre going to start seeing more play.

 greyknight12 wrote:
if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper.

65 points cheaper

 greyknight12 wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So it seems like GW is trying to enforce Custodes as a mid range + melee army as opposed to a gunline with these changes and it seems like Aquilons with Power Gauntlets are gonna be the best answer to T8 and Knights. With the sharp points increase to the Orion, could we see the Coronus make a resurgence? Loading them up with Aquilons and providing decent fire support doesn't look half bad and thankfully it made it out of the rules update unscathed. Deep striking a Telemon with a Caestus and a Storm Cannon seems viable as well although making that 9" charge is always going to be a problem. Gotta find some way to get some mileage out of it now and if anything it'll provide for a big distraction that will need to be answered somehow.

I don't think the Orion is strictly bad at it's new points cost though. The Coronus just needs to get the "better" blaze cannon and then it will be quite a good choice, and even with these rules changes being recent I'm not discounting future FAQs changing them again; I think a lot of the push was to bring them into the fold of actual rules and out of beta ahead of the fall FAQ.
I think that (if $$$ isn't an issue) running one of each flyer might be viable; they both have a giant "shoot me" sticker on them and will distract from anything on the ground getting shot at; though if your opponent has no vehicles the Ares is kind of wasted. But if you're taking 2 Caladius in anti-tank mode then the 4 (avg) anti-tank shots from the Ares seems worth losing the 12 lastrum shots for 120 points cheaper.
On the other hand, Aquilons deepstriking and bikes being fast means you can probably spend the points on more dudes instead of a shiny gunboat...488 is another 5 aquilons with firepikes, 5 vertus praetors or even 4 agmatus with pules lasers.

The problem with deep strike has always been making that 9" charge and Custodes have no way of making that any easier beyond a command reroll. At least with a transport like the Coronus it can make getting them close easier which is why I can see it having some valueand bikes always seem to get targeted first in my games so they don't last too long. Has anyone tried out the Caladius with Twin Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannons? Only having 2 shots is a bit concerning but it certainly doesn't have trouble hitting or wounding targets. With the nerf to the Telemon's Storm Cannons we can use all the ranged anti-tank we can get without breaking the bank.

What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!

They're interesting but they're still too expensive for me, they're also Heavy weapons so they'll be hitting on 3's and plus the models look ugly as sin.

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
What are people’s thoughts on the agamatus with twin las-pulsar? Pricey, at 345 for 3 (same as the new obliterators) but 3 lots of heavy 4, S8, ap-2,D d3. And the lance for melee!

I think they are super solid, and make all-bike armies an interesting idea again or just a nice durable midfield support unit for deep strikers. I wish their other guns were better though, because neither of them seem even remotely useful. Ideally we’d be able to mix them into our Vertus praetor squads, but that’s never going to happen...I’d love to be able to do 2-1 las pulsars to hurricane bolters or vice versa in a bike squad.

So the initial response to Sagittarium Guard becoming a troop choice was quite positive.
The standard spear/sword&board guards were often seen as a troop tax, because they obviously want to be up front in melee and are not suited for backfield objective camping.

Now since the Sagittarum can be better used to sit on objectives and also don't suck in melee if you give them misericordias, do you think they will eventually push out the normal guard from most lists?

^^

I would think so yes.

Until charging stops being a random suck-fest, an infantry troop choice that does its main damage at range will be more effective 95% of the time, especially when they are the same cost pretty much.

They also just as durable (stormshields aside), and can also still blend up something like an IG infantry squad who charges them to try swarming an objective.

I'd say the fit the requirements pretty well indeed. Custodian Guard are really only taken for being troops currently, like you say. They're totally overshadowed by Wardens as CC infantry, or bikes in the general melee role. Stormshields are still their niche of course, so a squad with shields might still be useful in the 'super-tanky-bunker unit' role

Spartacus wrote:
^^

I would think so yes.

Until charging stops being a random suck-fest, an infantry troop choice that does its main damage at range will be more effective 95% of the time, especially when they are the same cost pretty much.

They also just as durable (stormshields aside), and can also still blend up something like an IG infantry squad who charges them to try swarming an objective.

I'd say the fit the requirements pretty well indeed. Custodian Guard are really only taken for being troops currently, like you say. They're totally overshadowed by Wardens as CC infantry, or bikes in the general melee role. Stormshields are still their niche of course, so a squad with shields might still be useful in the 'super-tanky-bunker unit' role

Agreed to everything you said. It's a shame though, I personally really like the spear wielding guard. They are amazing if they can get to their target, but like you said charging can be so damn frustrating in 8th ed. For a melee centered army like the custodes, I never understood why they didn't get any rule to help them charge. I know, I know, Custodes can be a really good shooting army with the forgeworld units, but their codex clearly has them in mind as a melee centered army.