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So for clarification, would this make the damage a d6 roll, or (d3=x)2 Just asking because that SC has the chance to shoot for 12 damage then do 30 damage in melee. Tell me that isn't a distraction carnifex that a knight list runner wouldn't crap his pants over. Now he would obviously be more scared of the triple Telemon threat and dread host. But the SC Vertus with this strat is easily a good and useful option, it's not trash tier.

D3 times two, not d6.

And the odds of that happening are tiny-small enough to be ignored safely.

In another change for us, Fly can't Fall Back and Shoot anymore. Grav-tanks and Jetbikes just got nerfed a bit.

Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.

considering vehicles will be able to shoot into combat with non-blast weaponry it isnt a huge deal for the caladius.

Its a pretty difficult feat to charge one with tanglefoot and gravitic backwash, so if they get it off im fine with not being able to shoot any target i want.

Any unit that charges one and doesnt kill it is gonna take a butt whipping though.

Biker captains will have to change how they play now, but you could always give one the Destroyer trait so they cant be tied up and still play it like it used to.

Audustum wrote:
In another change for us, Fly can't Fall Back and Shoot anymore. Grav-tanks and Jetbikes just got nerfed a bit.

I'm so happy there's now ZERO pressure for me to buy 12 more bikes. Go terminators!

Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.

The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.

Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).

Salt donkey wrote:
Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.

The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.

Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).

You mean that my opponent might not spend their CP as well to just avoid the 55 point investment from doing its own thing? Shouldn't that be considered a win? Also those Powers and Denying are more than worth it. Don't forget Xenos, which have that Warlord Trait, get Veil as a power which is worth a lot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
Well Pullen did good job explaining why he doesn’t like bikes in 9th edition here. Also RIP eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also the 5+ CP regen isn't good since you can get an Inquisitor to do the same thing and give that Shield Captain something else.

The inquisitor warlord trait only works when your opponent uses a stratagem, and you roll once for each stratagem they use. This means in a majority of games you won’t be getting as much CP back from it, as lot of opponents will spend their CP on expensive stratagem/ might play around your ability.

Also, an inquisitor is a 55 point HQ. The deny and power they offer is a nice bonus, but not worth a full HQ slot by itself and is pricey for the cost you pay. I think most lists in 9th are going to want a combination of a bike captain, terminator captain, and Valoris. Also, most lists are going to be a single battalion meaning their is now an opportunity cost beyond 1 CP and 55 points to take an inquisitor (either an HQ model you wanted to take, or whatever the CP cost an extra detachment will cost you).

You mean that my opponent might not spend their CP as well to just avoid the 55 point investment from doing its own thing? Shouldn't that be considered a win? Also those Powers and Denying are more than worth it. Don't forget Xenos, which have that Warlord Trait, get Veil as a power which is worth a lot.

You’re opponent has a lot of latitude to play around this. They could not spend CP at a point to completely deny you, they might spend less to give less of chance, they could try to spend more after you gotten your already got CP back for the battle round, or they could just ignore this ability. The point here is this trait gives your opponents choices to play around it, which is always worse than not given them a choice. You could also be playing someone who spends a lot of CP pregame/ for detachments, where this becomes worse by default. As a someone who’s run plenty of the these types of relics in 8th, I can assure you that the captain commander trait is much better than the inquisitors.

Also you ignored my biggest problem with generic inquisitor. He/she takes up an extremely valuable HQ slot. You defeat the purpose of the warlord trait if you take a detachment just for an inquisitor. And if you want a pysker for your army now you can take that new sister’s woman and harlequin they just previewed.

Now I won’t argue that an inquisitor is a good pick up for a 2 detachment list, but that’s not going to be every list.

So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?

Inquisitors can be put in without taking up a slot.

 godswildcard wrote:
So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?

Bolters or flamers for sure. I like the bolters because they're cheap but they inherently make the Sisters want to stay in the back, which means their aura isn't doing much. It's short range and they need to get close to have it take some effect (and body block Smite), so flamers seem ideal. The flamers are Assault so Move 7" then +1D6" for Advance then flame if something is close. Should keep them up ahead of the Custodes while still having a more palatable threat range than the swords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Inquisitors can be put in without taking up a slot.

This is what I thought too. Assassins can also go in our detachments now and not take up a slot. Patrol detachments, as a base for a 1 detachment build, seem ideal. CP cost is still refunded by Warlord and you get 2 slots for Elites + free slot Inq and free assassin.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Inquisitors can be put in without taking up a slot.

Oh that’s good to know. Not sure why I thought otherwise. That does make them a better choice then.

Salt donkey wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Inquisitors can be put in without taking up a slot.

Oh that’s good to know. Not sure why I thought otherwise. That does make them a better choice then.

Ehhh, you have to take a generic for the 5+ regen. Hector Rex is right there and he is really good with a ton of denies and a psychic hood. The warlord trait is locked to Xenos and he's Malleus.

That said, maybe the new Xenos inquisitor from the PA after ours will be worth it. She might be able to take the 5+ trait.

 godswildcard wrote:
So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?

Haven’t made much other than a sketch of a couple lists (waiting for 9th points values) but I’m leaning toward boltguns for the cheapness, flamers might have a place if there are more detailed terrain rules incoming. The swords just aren’t that good in a list that already has Custodes.
I know it’s a lot of points, but I’ve been thinking of the Talon combo, not because either is impressive but having the sisters strats on a character makes it more likely you’ll get to use them...that said Aleya is a couple Eliminator squads from seeing the Emperor. I’m thinking if you do include sisters, they might be worthwhile as reserves in some cases since they are low power level and the stuff that sucks (smites, deepstrike suicides) aren’t happening until turn 2.

stratigo wrote:
I'd caution everyone to wait on making any additional forgeworld purchases until after GW reveals what they are doing with forgeworld rules. Provided that's why you are looking at the models. Forge world usually experiences a lot of fluctuation in its rules

I agree but fwiw the rules have been done by GW and have been playtested in 9th. Also Brian Pullen said the single biggest winner for our whole faction was the Telemon so I reckon we’ll be seeing plenty of them.

Malefic666 wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I'd caution everyone to wait on making any additional forgeworld purchases until after GW reveals what they are doing with forgeworld rules. Provided that's why you are looking at the models. Forge world usually experiences a lot of fluctuation in its rules

I agree but fwiw the rules have been done by GW and have been playtested in 9th. Also Brian Pullen said the single biggest winner for our whole faction was the Telemon so I reckon we’ll be seeing plenty of them.

Sure. I think this'll be the case. But you're dropping almost 200 dollars on a model that you don't know the rules for yet, and that's a risky endeavor. But mostly I'd eye terminators to see if their points fluctuate wildly.

 godswildcard wrote:
So how are people equipping their Sisters of Silence when run in a Talons list? It seems like the bolt guns may be the way to go because it allows you to put pressure on psychic characters earlier on, but I wanted to see what everyone else was having luck with?

I'm planning on running 2x5 Prosecutors to hold 'safe' objectives, and 1x5 Vigilators to help protect my forward elements from cover.

I find it kind of hilarious that we were all excited for our changes, and thought we were hot stuff, then GW drops the Tau changes and they completely break the Overwatch rules, and I'm just sitting here, barely containing my ire. Whelp, here's another edition of watching my deepstrikers get shot off the table by skinny blue space Marxists.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I find it kind of hilarious that we were all excited for our changes, and thought we were hot stuff, then GW drops the Tau changes and they completely break the Overwatch rules, and I'm just sitting here, barely containing my ire. Whelp, here's another edition of watching my deepstrikers get shot off the table by skinny blue space Marxists.

Cheer up! Take Hector Rex! For 100 points you get a deep striking Inquisitor that can shut off Overwatch!

Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.

They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.


I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.

We’re good against Tau now. So Tau weapons are mostly AP1/2 (check our strats), Allarus can shut down overwatch, and how many Tau units have fly? Plus they can’t just castle now, we take the centre and then they’ve got to come to us.

It’s gonna be Ad Mech (everyone is gonna struggle there) and maybe a few others like Space Wolves who give us a run for our money. Though they may be factions that see significant points increases (people already working out the 22PL examples featured today).

So I strongly advise you to play more Tau Players. They can get 5 Markerlights put on any charging unit for 1 CP, and they can get +1 in overwatch, so 5-6 to hit, then they can re-roll 1s. They also can somehow turn their weapons into pistols 2 and shoot before the fight phase (I think I got cheated on this) Basically, they can shoot you off the table in overwatch with their base infantry. Honestly, I am really confused to how elite melee armies are supposed to take on Tau now, if GW is just going to go backwards on the whole overwatch BS. That was such a buff to us, and now there is a precedent for saying you can ignore it. So expect Eldar and others to get similar buffs.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I strongly advise you to play more Tau Players. They can get 5 Markerlights put on any charging unit for 1 CP, and they can get +1 in overwatch, so 5-6 to hit, then they can re-roll 1s. They also can somehow turn their weapons into pistols 2 and shoot before the fight phase (I think I got cheated on this) Basically, they can shoot you off the table in overwatch with their base infantry. Honestly, I am really confused to how elite melee armies are supposed to take on Tau now, if GW is just going to go backwards on the whole overwatch BS. That was such a buff to us, and now there is a precedent for saying you can ignore it. So expect Eldar and others to get similar buffs.

Literally none of this is true. The Coordinated Engagement strat functions only in the shooting phase, and only benefits XV8 units. Furthermore, Markerlights do not allow for 5+ Overwatch (Hit bonuses do not impact Overwatch accuracy). The only interaction Markerlights have during the Charge phase is for Enclave units who innately count as having 1 when firing at close range (which encompasses most Charges).

Point Blank Volley likewise only functions in the shooting phase, and only changes Pulse Blaster, Rifle and Carbine weapons to Pistol 2. It does not for a second grant the ability to shoot them in your opponents turn, or use them as de facto melee weapons.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.

They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.


I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.

Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.

We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.

stratigo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.

They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.


I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.

Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.

We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.

Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.

I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.

They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.


I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.

Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.

We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.

Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.

I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.

What kind of list did those two tau player play? was it the 40+ shield drone and 3 Riptides?

So what is everyone suggesting for troop load out? At this point I'm kinda leaning towards sword and board x 9 for troops, just as obj holders and maybe some late game (once they trundle up the board) action. They aren't exactly meant for speedy wins, and there are no super beneficial strats for our troop options?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So what is everyone suggesting for troop load out? At this point I'm kinda leaning towards sword and board x 9 for troops, just as obj holders and maybe some late game (once they trundle up the board) action. They aren't exactly meant for speedy wins, and there are no super beneficial strats for our troop options?

Sagittarum Custodians.

For roughly the same price as guard, you get a squad that can camp objectives and punish with heavy bolter equivalents. Guard are slightly more durable, but they're generalists that fail to shine and are left trundling up the board.

I could see maybe a 2 Sag/1 Guard combination to fill out a Battalion for a bit more defense/mid-field pressure, but Guard are in a really awkward state unless they get some strats that don't punish a mixed loadout and/or a competitive points drop.


There may be value in non-min squads so that we aren't at such risk for losing character protection, but Biker Captains are great Distraction Carnifexes and it may not be worth running a defensive Vexilus.

Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.