Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yeah im not sold on more than 1 squad of sag in the backfield honestly. Even then, we can now keep a SoS squad in the backfield for even cheaper now.

I like the unit, but since you usually want to run it at 5 strong and needs misericordia it comes out to a high points cost.

I run my 3 units of guard cheap with one shield apiece and they do fine unless i get unlucky.

So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?

Also the new combat patrol mode looks kinda fun, especially since when I am going to finish my allarus captain I'd have a fully painted combat patrol with 3 guards, a galatus dread and said captain, which would be the first time I'd have a fully painted "army".

Malefic666 wrote:
Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.

What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?

 nordsturmking wrote:

Audustum wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ive honestly never had a problem againgst tau with my custodes.

They certainly can build anti-custodes lists, but if they arent tailoring then they arent all that nasty for us.


I've had more trouble against chaos daemon engines and harlequins personally.

Competitive Tau are and have always been a hard counter to custodes melee. The only time tau don't do good against custodes is when custodes forge world tanks were rocking up the meta, and that's because they outshot tau, EVEN considering the drones. But this wasn't a good thing.

We'll see if they make any changes to charging, better terrain may make it easier to play against tau. Provided you have enough of it. But that's more terrain than the big competitive boards usually brought, and tau durability is essentially makes a 1 turn alpha strike attempt a non issue. There's no way in one fight phase to do enough damage to a tau castle that it cannot be absorbed by an arbitrary amount of drones.

Hard counter is a bit too strong. I fought two Tau at last NOVA with a Jetbike list and it was nail-biting but I won both. These were decently ranked players so we're not talking total newbies.

I would say it's a rough fight but hard counter goes a bit far unless you're foot slogging the whole army.

What kind of list did those two tau player play? was it the 40+ shield drone and 3 Riptides?

The first one did. The second one was 3 Riptides and 3 Broadsides with a bit less support as a result.

For the first, I hid in the L ruins (I had 10 Jetbikes) until bottom of turn 2. Then I jumped out and put about 100 hurricane bolter shots into the shield drones to cut down on his bodyguard ability and one squad + captain made a charge I believe.

As someone who regularly plays against Custodes, Sword and Board troops with a vexilla are a nightmare to deal with. Just the perspective from the other side

Thing is, I don't like the range on Sag. At that shooting range they are well within heavy vehicle range, which will delete them pretty easily for their cost. 9th is shaping up to be heavy on the vehicles, so I am banking on guard squads that a maxed on survivability and objective holding. Shooting be damned. They are there to score objectives, and dissuade charges. Like all Custodes they will still struggle with a mob of boys or blood letters, but then you should be able to defend their flanks with the rest of your stuff. The only thing I don't see happening is anyone using the melta spears or pyrite weapons? Like, I don;t see the point.

Tiberias wrote:
So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?

Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?

Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.

That someone was me. It's on page 141 of this thread

 nordsturmking wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So I've not been up to date with the discussion, but is the jury still out on whether a telemon with double fist is now worth considering, or is the fist/storm cannon combo still always better?

Someone did some math earlier in the thread, it looks like having a gun is generally better.

That someone was me. It's on page 141 of this thread

Thank you showing me where to look and for doing the math.

Only reason to run double fist is to save points. I might do it in my list since it came out to 1650 even. The storm cannon is usually always worth taking though.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Only reason to run double fist is to save points. I might do it in my list since it came out to 1650 even. The storm cannon is usually always worth taking though.

For now.

Again, careful. Even it telemons stay awesome (and they probably will), their best loadouts may change.

People dislike paying 30 points for +1 melee attack, but techniqually you are also getting a second plasma flamer as well.

They probably should discount the second fist by 5 points though, like they do with most paired weaponry since its not even close to as useful as the first.

nemesis464 wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.

What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?

“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.

"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."

We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.

We don't know are there any primary objectives that require that. For secondaries just pick killy stuff or something else custodians excel at. Just because there's secondary with actions doesn't mean you have to take it.

Just throw down “unleash the lions” after you’ve dropped and charged in/killed stuff with your big Allarus blob.

We have no idea what FW changes are in store for 9th. Just like no one here has any idea what will be good in 9th. We could say Telemon with Dread host will be boss, until they drop a release that shows Deathguard get +2 to wound Dreadnaughts on their bolters, or some such stupidity. I caution anyone against dropping 200 USD on a model that may be nerfed into oblivion by the time we are actually able to start playing again in 2022, that is if the War of the South Part 2 doesn't end up killing us all. Hold off, use this time to paint up the models you have in boxes, but haven't assembled. We all have them. But don't make any big purchases right as a new edition is dropping. Seriously.

Malefic666 wrote:

nemesis464 wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.

What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?

“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.

"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."

We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.

Which means they're still better than regular Guard since, when they aren't performing actions, they can actually contribute with shooting. You're really not doing a good job of defending them. The superior shooting > 3++, simply because if the opponent wants either gone it'll be through Mortal Wounds.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We have no idea what FW changes are in store for 9th. Just like no one here has any idea what will be good in 9th. We could say Telemon with Dread host will be boss, until they drop a release that shows Deathguard get +2 to wound Dreadnaughts on their bolters, or some such stupidity. I caution anyone against dropping 200 USD on a model that may be nerfed into oblivion by the time we are actually able to start playing again in 2022, that is if the War of the South Part 2 doesn't end up killing us all. Hold off, use this time to paint up the models you have in boxes, but haven't assembled. We all have them. But don't make any big purchases right as a new edition is dropping. Seriously.

This might come as a surprise, but many people buy centerpiece models like a telemon because the actually enjoy building and painting it. Sure, we don't know what 9th will bring in its entirety, but that should not deter people to buy something they really enjoy. Also you can play models that are bad and still have fun if you are not constantly playing tournaments. I've been playing my galatus dread in most of my games in 8th and had a blast with it, even though it's terrible objectively.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:

nemesis464 wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
Personally I don’t see Sags being any good at all. Their shooting is mediocre and you want troops to perform actions (giving up their shooting etc). That 3++ is invaluable and hard to see last for obj campers.

What do you mean by giving up shooting to perform actions? Have I completely missed something in the rules?

“ Actions
These are used instead of shooting and swinging a weapon. here are some examples shared in the Warhammer 40k Article.

"The new edition also adds actions to Warhammer 40,000. Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission."

We know that some of our troops are probably going to perform actions. This is just another reason why Sags aren’t first choice imo.

Which means they're still better than regular Guard since, when they aren't performing actions, they can actually contribute with shooting. You're really not doing a good job of defending them. The superior shooting > 3++, simply because if the opponent wants either gone it'll be through Mortal Wounds.

Take Sags if you want to. My opinion is their shooting is mediocre, and as the game will be smaller and focussed around the centre of the board, I want the defensive boost of 3++ for my troops, especially since with a cheap inquisitor we’re not bad at stopping psychic mortals now. I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise, whatever makes us happy at the end of the day.

So, aside from the Ares, what do we have that has titanic keyword of is Superheavyonly?

Because this new rule really hurt me (Just bought 2 Baneblades to paint up) Now they are still viable if the Blast thing continues, but 6CP cost if you take a superheavy?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, aside from the Ares, what do we have that has titanic keyword of is Superheavyonly?

Because this new rule really hurt me (Just bought 2 Baneblades to paint up) Now they are still viable if the Blast thing continues, but 6CP cost if you take a superheavy?

The Ares doesn't have the titanic keyword and it is not a LoW it is normal flyer. That could change in 9th but i really hop it doesn't.

No forgeworld stuff in the leaks, but the Allarus grenade launchers are on the list of “blast weapons”. Also Valerian and Aleya are 200 pts

 greyknight12 wrote:
No forgeworld stuff in the leaks, but the Allarus grenade launchers are on the list of “blast weapons”. Also Valerian and Aleya are 200 pts

Valerian and Aleya being 200 points seems pretty legit, as that is high enough to ensure they never see any use whatsoever. Certainly you won’t be putting them on the table for Valerian’s good looks. “No I’m not salty they ruined some of BL best characters, what gave you that idea?”

On a more serious note Allarus continue to look better and better. Hopefully their points aren’t too high as at the moment they look very competitive.

Really excited to make some Terminator Kitbashes with GK Storm Bolters on Warden Base.

So Siegler played Perry 3 days ago. Siegler used Custodes. They used what 9th rules they know + ITC Champion Missions. Custodes bodied Perry's Chaos/Disco-Lord list (score was 36-15).

Siegler had:

Adeptus Custodes Battalion
Shield Host: Shadowkeepers
Culexus Assassin
Inquisitor, Ordo Xenos, Boltgun, Chainsword, (Powers: Terrify) -1 cp Inquisitorial Mandate (Esoteric Lore warlord trait and Blackshroud relic)
Captain-General Trajann Valoris
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Misercordia, Warlord: Superior Creation, relic: Auric Aquilis, -1 cp Captain Commander: Indomitable Constitution
3 Custodian Guard Squad, 2x Sentinel Blade, 2x Storm Shield, 1x Guardian Spear
3 Custodian Guard Squad, 1x Sentinel Blade, 1x Storm Shield, 2x Guardian Spear
3 Custodian Guard Squad, 1x Sentinel Blade, 1x Storm Shield, 2x Guardian Spear
5 Aquilon Custodians, 5x Lastrum Storm Bolters, 5x Solarite Power Gauntlet
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter
5 Prosecutors
5 Prosecutors
Vexilus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor, Vexilla Magnifica -1 cp extra relic: Raiment of Sorrows
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought, 2x Arachnus Storm Cannon, 1x Spiculus Bolt Launcher


Reviewing it after, Siegler said the Achillus was the worst thing in there and an easy remove for revisions. He was a huge fan of the Aquillons and the Telemon, saying they were the two best things in the list.

So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.

I don't have a read out of the whole list, but it seems to have been 3 Patrol Detachments and included some cultists, Bile and 2 Disco-Lords. He didn't have much psychic powers but they did mention Warptime in there which Siegler was concerned about.

Both players agreed Custodes could show up at any major GT and go positive. They said you'd need some bracket luck to get 1st at something like SoCal/LVO. Perry thinks we'll have issues having enough bodies for screens. Siegler thinks certain armies will be able to bring a withering amount of power and melt us. Namely, AdMech.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So without even seeing the other list, it is pretty simple in this flux period to completely shut down weak chaos lists with Custodes. Although the choice of Aquillon over allarus is confusing, given their recent buffs. The SoS will play hell over a Chaos caster list fairly well, and then you are facing everything else. Good stuff.

Aquillons got a similar amount of buffs and they get the benefit of a strictly superior melee weapon. Like vastly superior.

I just saw the Eradicator squad. I honestly don't care anymore. 3 man squads with 3w, t5. that essentially have Assault 2 multimeltas? Yeah, We were all like, wow the Telemons look amazing. Meanwhile GW is like, we need to make super-overpowered Devestator guys.

I give up trying to figure out what is of any value. GW is just making up stuff at this point. Oh, and they are +1 to wound with the Salamander trait.

GW walks into a bank: I have come here to destroy knights, and create Balance, and I'm all out of balance.

Congrats folks, the basic troops with a 1+/3++ are in town.