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 nordsturmking wrote:
The question is: Do you think GW wants everyone with 1+ armor save from a storm shield to ignore AP? No in don't think so. It is not going to happen.

I also don't think its going to happen. But don't be so quick to think that GW automatically doesn't want it to happen, there is a precedent in Age of Sigmar as I've recently found out.

The Bastiladon model in its most recent rules iteration has a +1 save characteristic and the same kind of questions were raised about it ignoring AP. GW released an FAQ dealing with it, and actually ruled IN FAVOR of a +1 Sv Characteristic functionally ignoring all weapon Rends (what they call AP in AoS). See this link explaining it:

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/faq-is-out-bastiladon-is-god.24544/


Now its not quite as game breaking as it might be in 40k, as mortal wounds are even more significant in Sigmar and I also believe that there is some mechanism that reduces save characteristic as the model takes damage (don't quote me, I don't play that game). Food for thought anyway.

Hey everyone, I've been skimming over this and other threads recently but I'm not really all caught up on everything changing in 9th. Can anyone tell me a list of the major changes to the game that will really affect custodes? Aside from the obvious of 12CP (very happy about that )
Can't wait to get back playing something fresh

This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.

locarno24 wrote:
This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.

I think Blageguard are only T4.

 JNAProductions wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.

I think Blageguard are only T4.

Yep. Blade guard didn't get into the aggressor suits, though they still were granted a third wound inexplicably.


Indeed, blade guard are probably, in the context of a space marine army and all the support they can get, better than custodian guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Hey everyone, I've been skimming over this and other threads recently but I'm not really all caught up on everything changing in 9th. Can anyone tell me a list of the major changes to the game that will really affect custodes? Aside from the obvious of 12CP (very happy about that )
Can't wait to get back playing something fresh

Truthfully? Until we know the points, 9th itself has had very little effect on custodes. But PA had a big change, particularly in the viability of terminators and dreadnoughts and venatari. GW could still clobber all the units PA buffed with points increases, or they could decide they sold enough bikes and make them 120 points each and untakeable. But from just the core rules of 9th and the missions, custodes aren't super effected outside CP.

So I was watching Table top tactics new "How to play Custodes in 9th" and he mentioned a different interpretation of the Stooping Dive Strat then I have ever used, and I wanted to check with the group to see if you think this is how to use it.

His Version:
1. Enemy declares charge on bikes.
2. Enemy makes charge rolls
3. Enemy moves unit.
4. Declare Swooping dive strat and charge
5. Put you bikes BEHIND the charging unit, and proceed with phases.

My version is basically always been when my opponent declares a charge, I can basically play Counterspell. But I have to declare it prior to him moving models. Have I always been doing it wrong? Is there a gentlemen's rule for when you should declare your counter charge? The specific wording is that it has to be used at THE END of the opponent's charge phase, isn't that after all charges have been declared and rolled out?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I was watching Table top tactics new "How to play Custodes in 9th" and he mentioned a different interpretation of the Stooping Dive Strat then I have ever used, and I wanted to check with the group to see if you think this is how to use it.

His Version:
1. Enemy declares charge on bikes.
2. Enemy makes charge rolls
3. Enemy moves unit.
4. Declare Swooping dive strat and charge
5. Put you bikes BEHIND the charging unit, and proceed with phases.

My version is basically always been when my opponent declares a charge, I can basically play Counterspell. But I have to declare it prior to him moving models. Have I always been doing it wrong? Is there a gentlemen's rule for when you should declare your counter charge? The specific wording is that it has to be used at THE END of the opponent's charge phase, isn't that after all charges have been declared and rolled out?

I saw the same video. Re-reading the wording of the card, it does specify "End of your opponent's charge phase"
So, I agree with their interpretation.

Stooping dive has always been after your opponent has made all his charges.

The problem is that if the bike unit has already been charged it cant use Swooping dive.

The strat gives no permission to leave combat if your already in it.

The most recent FAQ also specifically forbids using Stooping Dive if youre already engaged.

The whole point in the video was that he is playing two squads of bikes beside each other. If one squad gets charged, the second bike squad can then immediately do a stooping dive and cripple the enemy unit before it can hit its original target.

He also mentions in the video that is the main reason he plays two squads and not one big unit bikes

Yeah you can do that. Or play one big squad that benefits from other, cheaper stats better.

Solar watch patrols with one maxed bike squad will be a thing. Mabey shadowkeepers too.

I can only say that dread host is a lot of fun. I played a friendly game against orks and tau last weekend and the 3d6 charge from deepstrike is really nice.
I brought a bigger unit of allarus that did some work, an allarus shield captain with the dread host relic and warlord trait who was an absolute beast (albeit not as durable) and an achillus who finally was able to do some work without being immediately shot off the board, though a telemon will almost always be better unfortunately.

Also the captain commander trait that regenerates CP is absolutely amazing. That trait will be my go to in 9th for sure, cause our new strats are way too good to pass up those extra CP.

I loved the part of the video where he talked about the two JBSC combo, where he spent like 12 CP before the game even started just buffing up the two captains. It's going to be a wild ride. Hopefully the points don't shift too wildly to compensate. This waiting on points reveal is killing me.

His idea about the Telemon being a bully blocker for the Flag seems ill-conceived though. The Telemon is still just as vulnerable to massed shooting. Wouldn't a squad of 4 shields be a better bully blocker to move up the board with before Homer-porting in the big stuff? Better yet, just put the flag in a suit of teminator armor and have him drop in turn 2.

stratigo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
This does make sword-and-board custodian better, but then they need to be because space marines basically have their own very close equivalent, with S5 T5 Sv2+ AP-3 D2 heavy melee infantry in the form of bladeguard.

I think Blageguard are only T4.

Yep. Blade guard didn't get into the aggressor suits, though they still were granted a third wound inexplicably.


Indeed, blade guard are probably, in the context of a space marine army and all the support they can get, better than custodian guard..

Apologies - looking at the model I incorrectly though gravis armour. Must be the shoulder pads.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I loved the part of the video where he talked about the two JBSC combo, where he spent like 12 CP before the game even started just buffing up the two captains. It's going to be a wild ride. Hopefully the points don't shift too wildly to compensate. This waiting on points reveal is killing me.

His idea about the Telemon being a bully blocker for the Flag seems ill-conceived though. The Telemon is still just as vulnerable to massed shooting. Wouldn't a squad of 4 shields be a better bully blocker to move up the board with before Homer-porting in the big stuff? Better yet, just put the flag in a suit of teminator armor and have him drop in turn 2.

Our Dreads have a strat to reduce incoming damage by half. It's also already T8 2+/4++/6+++ with 14W. That's probably sliiiiiiightly more durable than 4 shields (12W, T5, 2+/3++ ignore AP-1 and AP-2) but I haven't mathed it. 5 shields will probably hold better, but a Telemon has some ranged contribution to make at least. I'd say it's six of one and half-dozen of the other.

The shields ignore AP currently and can surround the flag. The Telemon wouldn't make it impossible to get to the flag, just difficult. They could charge the flags with MSU. I'm not sure it's better, but the 4x storm shields would be an easier way to defend the flag.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The shields ignore AP currently and can surround the flag. The Telemon wouldn't make it impossible to get to the flag, just difficult. They could charge the flags with MSU. I'm not sure it's better, but the 4x storm shields would be an easier way to defend the flag.

Good points except 1. The Storm Shield change only applies to Indomitus Marines at the moment, not to anybody else.

I hadn't realized that, but most people I have spoken to apply it to all Storm Shields. So we will have to wait and see.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hadn't realized that, but most people I have spoken to apply it to all Storm Shields. So we will have to wait and see.

Yeah, right now we're expecting it to be given to everyone OR FAQ'd out of not working for Indomitus, but until 9th's initial FAQ drops we don't know for sure which way it will go.

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hadn't realized that, but most people I have spoken to apply it to all Storm Shields. So we will have to wait and see.

Yeah, right now we're expecting it to be given to everyone OR FAQ'd out of not working for Indomitus, but until 9th's initial FAQ drops we don't know for sure which way it will go.

Good to know, thank you. That being said I'm really glad I didn't model up 12 new Shield boys. I can only pray to the emperor that GW's normal ineptitude with rules FAQs continues to be a shining example of the effort devoted to the task.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, we haven't seen points yet. Shields could go from a point to 15 per.

It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?

Same time as 9th drops I think.

Audustum wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?

Same time as 9th drops I think.

If those would be released at the same time wouldn't we know about is already? I think the FW books will come out at least a few weeks after 9th.

 nordsturmking wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
It will be very interesting if that becomes the rule for storm shields across the board- personally I like the reduction of 3+ inv everywhere. Always felt a little too good(highly justified for points you pay though), especially on a full, tough, unit.
I'm hoping that the FW stuff doesn't get destroyed. They said they're looking at new indexes, no?

Same time as 9th drops I think.

If those would be released at the same time wouldn't we know about is already? I think the FW books will come out at least a few weeks after 9th.

People were saying it back in News and Rumor thread in June I think. That's about all I got.

So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).

I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.

Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:

1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).

2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.

3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.

4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.

5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.

6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.

7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.

8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.

Audustum wrote:
So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).

I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.

Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:

1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).

2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.

3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.

4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.

5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.

6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.

7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.

8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.

Great breakdown. Thanks for posting your experience. I'm still getting used to how tiny armies are going to be next edition. It's nice to see a complete lack of bikes in your list.

Did your units feel more durable with 500 fewer points of enemy gunfire coming their way?

 slave.entity wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).

I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.

Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:

1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).

2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.

3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.

4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.

5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.

6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.

7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.

8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.

Great breakdown. Thanks for posting your experience. I'm still getting used to how tiny armies are going to be next edition. It's nice to see a complete lack of bikes in your list.

Did your units feel more durable with 500 fewer points of enemy gunfire coming their way?

Thanks! Yeah, I wanted to see how foot-slogging felt on the smaller board and so I left the Jetbikes at home. Turns out I was right: the mobility they used to offer isn't nearly as necessary as it is now.

Units felt incredibly durable. Possessed bombs aren't huge shooting lists, but there were still 2 Plagueburst Crawlers shelling me every turn. I lost 2 Custodian Guard, Trajann took some wounds and the Telemon+Culexus+Aquilons ate some mortals when he out-detonated one of Plagueburst Crawlers with a stratagem (the Witchseekers were wiped out by Crawler fire and a charge of Chaos Spawn which are now MUCH faster through most terrain and can get a 5++). The Custodes felt amazingly resilient because:

1. The Custodian Guard took little punishing fire.

2. Forcing powerful units to only wound on a roll of 4+ cuts down their threat significantly.

3. The Aquilons can afford to ignore AP-1 and AP-2 effectively every shooting phase.

4. The new engagement rules made it fairly difficult to get lots of enemies in fighting range while the Custodes, with a much smaller model count, didn't have that issue for counter-attacking.

Hurting us was actually quite the chore. Our widespread possession of ObSec was also quite important since it allowed the Aquilons and Shield-Captain to steal objectives rather than just contest them. I focused most of my attacks on wiping enemy troops and then just tanked the damage from more elite units while scoring.

Audustum wrote:
So I got a game in against Death Guard under 9th. We played 1,500 points to simulate price increases for both armies (figure we'll be pleasantly surprised if the price hikes aren't that bad).

I took a Telemon (Arachnus + Caestus), 5x Aquilons (Lasbolters), 5x Custodian Guard (Sword+Board), Trajann, Shield-Captain (Allarus), 10x Witchseekers and 1 Culexus Assassin (so -3 if you're in their combined aura). I gave the Shield-Captain Victor of the Blood Games + Captain-Commander (+2W) and Superior Creation. Shield-Host was Dread Host.

Here are my thoughts as a reasonably competitive player:

1. Custodian Guard did some solid scoring. I parked them, alone and without a HQ, on a more remote objective and made use of Tangle Foot Grenade when they were threatened. The end result was it took way too much of my opponent's resources to even try contesting that spot to be worth it (18x Possessed Bomb).

2. Our version of Transhuman Physiology was great. It let the Custodian Guards also survive that Possessed Bomb, along with Tangle Foot.

3. +2W is probably not necessary as a Captain-Commander trait. It's super strong with Superior Creation, buuuut my the Shield-Captain was already so tough it didn't really matter. He didn't take a single wound the whole game because my opponent mostly ignored him and focused on my non-HQ units.

4. The Telemon was good. I recommend not deep striking him. Just have him walk to a central position while firing your choice of gun arm and Spiculus. He can wall off a good portion of the center of the board as a big bully.

5. A Sisters of Silence unit, just one, is incredibly valuable. Having access to a stratagem to deny a power on a 3+ was crucial to keeping buff units away from the fighting and shutting down an important buff when they got too close.

6. Culexus is great less for the aura and more for forcing enemies to fight last (though I didn't end up using that this game). Pairs well with Aquilons to always make sure they get the first whack even when charged.

7. Trajann is actually kinda 'eh' overall, but the 1D3 CP regen gives him a place I think.

8. Dread Host was great. Rather than try and beta strike an important unit (I went second), I put them on the other side of the board of his Possessed bomb and immediately charged and flipped an objective marker with the stratagem using the Aquilons. They then were positions to shut down half the board unless the Possessed bomb pivoted and thus left the Custodian Guard controlled section alone.

nice break down. i think the points increase wont be that high more like 200ish on a 2k list.

Here are the new points for Custodes. I will post a list of changes later.


Seems to be the same as what guys at Mob rules say.

and here is a goonhammer analysis about it.
https://www.goonhammer.com/the-9th-edition-munitorum-field-manual-points-review/



Agamatus Custodians 100
Aquilon Custodians 75
Ares Gunship 430
Caladius Grav-tank 225
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought 160
Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought 175
Coronus Grav-carrier 265
Custodian Guard with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears 55
Orion Assault Dropship 500
Pallas Grav-attack 105
Sagittarum Custodians 50
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought 200
Venatari Custodians 55

Achillus dreadspear 0
Adrasite spear 0
Adrastrus bolt caliver 0
Adrathic devastator 5
Arachnus heavy blaze cannon 0
Arachnus magna-blaze cannon 0
Arachnus storm cannon 40
Galatus warblade 0
Iliastus accelerator culverin 25
Infernus firepike 10
Infernus incinerator 10
Kinetic destroyer 0
Lastrum bolt cannon 0
Lastrum storm bolter 0
Pyrithite spear 0
Spiculus bolt launcher 10
Spiculus heavy bolt launcher 0
Twin adrathic destructor 15
Twin arachnus blaze cannon 0
Twin arachnus heavy blaze cannon 0
Twin iliastus accelerator cannon 0
Twin las-pulser 30
Twin lastrum bolt cannon 0
Twin plasma projector 15
Venatari lance 0

Galatus warblade 0
Interceptor lance 0
Misericordia 3
Solerite power gauntlet 5
Solerite power talon 0
Tarsus buckler 5
Telemon caestus (single/pair) 30/40

Galatus shield 0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35XCkqzs15o

Custodes might be the army to beat now with how the points have shaken out.

No one had as generous a touch.