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stratigo wrote:
Custodes might be the army to beat now with how the points have shaken out.

No one had as generous a touch.

hm i don't think so Custodes were one of the worst army befor PA and points changes. we still need to see the FW datasheets and the tournament missions.

 nordsturmking wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Custodes might be the army to beat now with how the points have shaken out.

No one had as generous a touch.

hm i don't think so Custodes were one of the worst army befor PA and points changes. we still need to see the FW datasheets and the tournament missions.

Literally everyone with a competitive eye is going "Wow custodes are looking amazing".

And, like, WOW are custodes looking amazing.

We good now. Top faction contender.

Custodes finally getting lots of CP without having to soup in a big boon. Point costs are looking good for them.

The biggest 'issue' with 9th might be missions. Putting expensive units on objectives where they do nothing is not great.

Those new points look tasty compared to other armies. Can someone explain to me though why our worst FW dread, namely the galatus, got more expensive??

 Ordana wrote:
Custodes finally getting lots of CP without having to soup in a big boon. Point costs are looking good for them.

The biggest 'issue' with 9th might be missions. Putting expensive units on objectives where they do nothing is not great.

I've only done one 9th game so far, but my experience with that was the objects score so many points that it's a fine use for them even at price. Especially if they're Sagittarum and can still shoot.

I made another list with the wargear:
EDIT: fixed an error

Reading the values again and looking at the points from other factions we are one of, if not the biggest winner in this.

Somehow this seems strange though. Some units from other factions got a massive hit that does not even seem to be intentional, but an oversight on GWs part.

What I mean by that is, GW has increased the base cost for many units across all factions. In some cases they have increased the base cost quite a bit, but have also reduced the cost of equipment for those units at the same time, so that the total increase in cost was not as steep.
They seem to have forgotten to reduce the equipment cost for some units in relation to the price hike for the base cost of the unit.

What this means in my opinion is that there will be an FAQ shortly for this whole mess.

Given the flaming dumpster fire that was the indomitus release, people are going to be even more upset about this. Well, unless you play custodes, or harlequins for that matter.

Edit: also be prepared for, in stead of space marines, we are going to be the new faction, which is going to be bombarded with frothing hatred from the community for getting one of the lowest points increase overall.

So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.

Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.

FAQs on the Warhammer Community sites for all the factions are up:

Trajanns moment shackle ability got changed. Only the part that used to regenerate d3 command points though: now when you choose to use it the next stratagem you use in this phase costs 0 commant points.

That's a straight buff in my opinion.

Some other minor changes in wording and stuff, but this is the big one in my opinion

Tiberias wrote:
FAQs on the Warhammer Community sites for all the factions are up:

Trajanns moment shackle ability got changed. Only the part that used to regenerate d3 command points though: now when you choose to use it the next stratagem you use in this phase costs 0 commant points.

That's a straight buff in my opinion.

Some other minor changes in wording and stuff, but this is the big one in my opinion

That is a straight buff!

So is it fair to assume that trajann, even though he is a bit more expensive now, might find a way in most lists now?

Getting a guaranteed free vexilla teleport homer, or golden light of the moraides...etc. seems waaay to good to pass up.

Edit: Also considering that now you can use his ability even when you have no CP left, which might be an additional advantage.

Tiberias wrote:
So is it fair to assume that trajann, even though he is a bit more expensive now, might find a way in most lists now?

Getting a guaranteed free vexilla teleport homer, or golden light of the moraides...etc. seems waaay to good to pass up.

Edit: Also considering that now you can use his ability even when you have no CP left, which might be an additional advantage.

I'd say he had a place in all but Bike lists and he's still got it

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.

Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.

Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.

Making a 3 CP stratagem free is another big buff on top of starting with more to begin with.

I wonder if the Galatus is more expensive cause they fixed/buffed his sword.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Making a 3 CP stratagem free is another big buff on top of starting with more to begin with.

I wonder if the Galatus is more expensive cause they fixed/buffed his sword.

Man, I'd be soo happy if they buffed the galatus warblade a bit....heres hoping for the FW indexes.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.

Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.

Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.

I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.

That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.

Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.

Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.

They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.

Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.

Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.

I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.

That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.

Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.

Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.

They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.

Very Great points. My "beta testers" comment was based off Table Top Titans (Self identified Custodes rep for GW play tester team, Don't know if it's true) and other prominent youtubers who are all major Custodes honks. My point was mainly that Aquillon over Allarus used to be a slam dunk. Now it's a lot closer. And a lot of people think Character targeting inches out the win, also the Heroic intervention shenanigans. They are a lot more mobile than Aquillons.

To the point of the post however, I will concede if you want something dead now, Aquillons are the way to go. But I think Allarus will start to see way more use than they used to, just off their recent buffs. They are now at worst, even in practicality.

I only wished the twin adrathic destructor was a bit cheaper still. 15 points instead of 20 is better, still 5 points too much for me. Or am I being unrealistic here?

Knights came off well from the update as well, you can still fit 4 big knights into a 2k army according to goonhammer. As far as competitive events go Aquilons are now the obvious choice, they hit big things so much harder point for point.

Bike captains were punished the most but only went up 10 percent in total, not bad when you consider some armies went up 20 percent on average! I'll definitely still take one as my first HQ to take advantage of the bike relic. And Telemon is still golden at under 300 points, in fact the twin Accellator cannon variant is really cheap now and excellent for primaris harvesting, I'm gonna try that as my go to.

I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.


Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??

 iGuy91 wrote:
I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.


Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??

Remember, salvo launcher no longer got the negative from moving.

Someone on Facebook pointed out that Trajan’s Moment Shackle doesn’t specify “Custodes Strategems” so if you’ve always wanted try a 4CP allied inquisition orbital bombardment, you can now do so for free.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.


Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??

you no longer even get the -1.

I think they may be worth bringing some now yes.

 Ordana wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.


Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??

you no longer even get the -1.

I think they may be worth bringing some now yes.

Innnnteresting. That will take some getting used to. Still, able to hit something like a flyer on 3s is really solid. What do folks think the best mix would be? 4 Bolters, 2 Launchers? 3 and 3?

so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

I will take my Telemon with fist and storm cannon. And i plan on walking him up to the middel of the board.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's pretty much Allarus and Bikes, and you can forget the double bike captains, at almost 175 a pop it's not worth it.

I don't understand the point behind the Landraider increase or the Venerable Naught increase. Who is using those? I'll tell you, this looks ugly for Telemons.

Aquilons actually down a little bit in points I think and are still superior to an Allarus in almost every way in my opinion. So I'd say Terminator/Dreadnought (not the Galatus though, seems he got roughed up a bit). Jetbikes are only up a small amount too so while I don't think they'll be the hot pick they're usable. One shield-captain on jetbike is likely sufficient.

Sag guard are in a good place though. Still competitive with our sword+board loadout. Spears seem the weakest of the three.

Allarus are mostly considered superior now by the majority of beta testers, due to their ability plop down phase 2, to knock out characters in the shooting phase, and then charge the chaff. Plus S12 punching isn't really that much better than s8 chopping. You aren't meeting the +2 to wound on anything over t6, and if you are using them to punch T5/6 things, you are using them wrong. Their shooting is still sub par. Allarus can wipe HQ's off the map in a single turn. It forces your opponent to change their strategy. Aquillons aren't as scary as people make them out. Without character targeting, they are good for big monster hunting. Which is still done better by Allarus with strats.

I honestly don't know who you mean by 'beta testers' but Siegler put his money on Aquilons when he made a list and he is quite good at the game. I haven't seen anyone else with that kind of profile weigh in.

That said, Allarus are actually pretty bad at 'deleting' a character. Let's look at a lowly Space Marine Captain. We won't give him anything but starting gear and we'll give our Allarus the benefit of re-rolling 1's. It's going to take you approximately 9 shots to kill him. 9. So a recommended size 5 squad of Allarus might get him if he's not Primaris, doesn't have a storm shield and/or isn't in cover. Against the commonly occurring daemon prince you're way out of luck. Basically, anything T5 or 2+ armor and you're going to need more than 5 Allarus. This is assuming your opponent doesn't screen you out of rapid fire range either (forcing you to use strat to double shots). 20 shots kill about 3.24 Primaris. 40 shots kill 6.48 of them. You'll decimate a horde too. It's not jaw dropping like a hurricane bolter, but not bad.

Aquilons punch at S10 vs. the S8 of Allarus. That means anything T5 or below is a 2+ without any strat support (and AP-4 to boot). 3+ armor saves don't get armor saves against them while they'd still get a 5+ vs. the Allarus. The Aquilons can use Slayers of Nightmares just as often as the Allarus (as it's unit toughness vs. unit toughness I believe) so with strat support they're 2+'ing anything T9 or less. The Allarus, by contrast are only 2+'ing T4 or less innately and T7 or less with strat support.

Let's look at the standard vehicle profile: T7 and a 3+. We'll give both the Aquilons and the Allarus Slayers of Nightmares. One Aquilon averages 5.55 damage. One Allarus averages 3.7. They're both wounding on a 2+ here, but the difference is striking. When fighting Primaris and Gravis armor the Aquilons will also keep the same consistent performance above.

They're just hands down better save for, like, getting a shot at sniping an old marine captain or astra militarum officer. The argument to be made for Allarus is that they are slightly cheaper. That's a nice little benefit of them. Is it worth the loss in effectiveness? That's a much more grey area up to each player I think.

Very Great points. My "beta testers" comment was based off Table Top Titans (Self identified Custodes rep for GW play tester team, Don't know if it's true) and other prominent youtubers who are all major Custodes honks. My point was mainly that Aquillon over Allarus used to be a slam dunk. Now it's a lot closer. And a lot of people think Character targeting inches out the win, also the Heroic intervention shenanigans. They are a lot more mobile than Aquillons.

To the point of the post however, I will concede if you want something dead now, Aquillons are the way to go. But I think Allarus will start to see way more use than they used to, just off their recent buffs. They are now at worst, even in practicality.

Good points!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Darkseid wrote:
I only wished the twin adrathic destructor was a bit cheaper still. 15 points instead of 20 is better, still 5 points too much for me. Or am I being unrealistic here?

I kind of feel like 15 is O.K., but we'll have to try and see. They're nice for Primaris hunting if you don't want to use the strat to shoot the bolters twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I still think if you want terminators, storm bolter/fist aquilons are the way to go here.


Now here is an interesting thing. Considering that the Hurricane Bolter Bikes, and Missile Bikes cost the same number of points now, is it worth running a mix of the two considering
A. the new strat to help (archeotech munitions)
B. Gaining the blast quality, and
C. No longer getting worse to hit than a -1 on anything since the salvo launcher is heavy??

you no longer even get the -1.

I think they may be worth bringing some now yes.

Innnnteresting. That will take some getting used to. Still, able to hit something like a flyer on 3s is really solid. What do folks think the best mix would be? 4 Bolters, 2 Launchers? 3 and 3?

I think you do one or the other and it's based on what else you brought. If you've got lastrum storm bolters or Arachnus Stormcannons (multiple) then go with the missiles. You have enough horde clearing power and hordes are supposed to be less common now anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nordsturmking wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

I will take my Telemon with fist and storm cannon. And i plan on walking him up to the middel of the board.

That's the spirit! I think if you're bringing one Telemon, this is the go-to loadout. Especially if you just have one terminator/warden squad. That said, if you are bringing multiple Telemons or lots of terminators/wardens, loading some or all of them up with guns seems advisable.

The first list i will test is this:

Dread host

Trajann 190
biker SC (salvo, WL, strategic mastermind, emperor's companion, Auric Aquilis ) 175
termi SC (axe, superior creation, Eagle's eye ) 115
5 Allarus (4 axes 1 spear) 345
Caladius (balze) 225
Caladius (balze) 225
Telemon( fist,storm ) 295
Ares 430

that's 2000p

The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.

any thoughts?

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.