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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 00:09:17
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Where am I messing up the math? Am I missing that the Callidus melee ignores all invuln saves, and is AP3 D2. If it touches a wulfen that wulfen dies. So on average with 5 attacks hitting on 2+ thats 4 dead wulfen. Then it gets a D1 attack against another wulfen that hits on 2+ and wounds on a 3.
Then the Eversor fights and gets possibly 16 attacks at S5 AP1 that gets to reroll all wound rolls. If they shoot first or the Eversor throws his Melta bomb that is way more than 2 dead.
5 attacks.
25/6 hits.
25/12 wounds, or about two failed saves
Then the Wulfen get their FNP, so you only kill 1 on average with the main weapon.
1 attack
5/6 hits
5/9 wounds
5/27 failed saves
10/81 failed FNP
Eversor gets 16 attacks.
40/3 hits
320/27 wounds
320/81 failed saves
640/243 failed FNP, or 2.63 wounds
So yeah. You kill about two Wulfen with them.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 00:22:28
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 00:40:09
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
5 attacks.
25/6 hits-so you're already down to just over 4 hits, and then you have to wound.
25/12 wounds-which means, on average, you get two wounds on them, at D2 each. A Wulfen has a 5/9 chance of surviving a D2 swing with at least 1 wound left, meaning you've got good odds of killing one real hard, and not touching another.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 00:56:22
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So on the Callidus all of them would wound, because the AP would eliminate a armor save, and they don't get an invuln. So it's just a 5+++ on ever point of damage, which would be 5 hits, 10 damage, where did I mess up?
The Callidus is S4 on the weapon that ignores invulns, and wounds on a 3+ on its other weapon but faces the invuln with that additional attack. There isnt an auto-wound. None of her special weapon abilities are specific to her datasheet, theyre specific to the individual weapons she carries.
Dont get me wrong, I love the unit as its just mayhem incarnate on the table, but against Wulfen its a baaaaaaaaad pairing.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/07 00:58:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 14:41:08
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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So what then? Inquisitor Mortal spam? Is there anything that we can bring to battle Space wolves? Triple Orions with beams, lol? I mean, I feel like sacrificing a squad of bikes to eliminate their best unit on the table makes sense. It hurts, don't get me wrong, but bikes are about the only this that has enough oomph to take them on, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 15:08:11
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Damsel of the Lady
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So what then? Inquisitor Mortal spam? Is there anything that we can bring to battle Space wolves? Triple Orions with beams, lol? I mean, I feel like sacrificing a squad of bikes to eliminate their best unit on the table makes sense. It hurts, don't get me wrong, but bikes are about the only this that has enough oomph to take them on, right?
Terminators + Culexus. Armor of Russ makes you fight last, Culexus makes them fight last, you fight first because it's your turn. Aquilons and Jetbikes do about the same amount of damage.
Shooting is the real answer though. 10 Jetbikes kill about 6 Wulfen with just Hurricane Bolters. 10 Allarus with Superior Fire stratagem should do about the same if they can get their Ballistus Grenade Launchers in range too (a little less otherwise).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/07 15:08:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 15:35:57
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high
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It is worth noting that every Wulfen I've ever seen, aside from the pack leader, takes a storm shield.
I'd propose the best way to kill them is Aquilon Terminators with Storm Bolters, and Superior Fire Patterns, or Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Remember, Wulfen fight in melee when they die. You don't want to engage them in melee unless you absolutely have to, and if you do, be prepared to lose the squad fighting them in kind.
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Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
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Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 15:56:11
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Damsel of the Lady
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iGuy91 wrote:It is worth noting that every Wulfen I've ever seen, aside from the pack leader, takes a storm shield.
I'd propose the best way to kill them is Aquilon Terminators with Storm Bolters, and Superior Fire Patterns, or Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Remember, Wulfen fight in melee when they die. You don't want to engage them in melee unless you absolutely have to, and if you do, be prepared to lose the squad fighting them in kind.
The biggest hurdle on the Aquilons is you can't take more than 6 in a unit while the Allarus can take 10. It's one of the few times you're better off with Allarus (because you want as many as possible to be affected by Superior Fire Patterns).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 16:32:43
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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How many S4 AP1 D2 shots would it take to wipe a 5 man wulfen squad with ss off the table?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 17:33:46
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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BS2+ re-rollable S4 AP-1 D2 shots
Vs
T4 3++/5+++ 2W?
About 46 shots to kill all 5, not taking into account the chance of saving 1 of the 2 damage with the ignore wounds save which would invalidate maybe a 1/6th of the wounds dealt? So maybe over 50 shots?
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 17:41:01
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high
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Lets see.....
36 Shots
Assuming No Rerolls,
30 Hits on 2+
15 Wounds on 4+
5 Wounds go through against a 3++
This would rely on them failing every single FNP however, so it takes closer to 40 shots.
With rerolls, the odds of course improve.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/07 17:41:19
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
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Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 18:11:24
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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So if I dropped a squad of 10 allarus with axes 9" from them, and popped the double rapid fire strat, that is 40 shots. Then factor in their launchers, add in a captain for re-rolls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/07 20:59:32
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So if I dropped a squad of 10 allarus with axes 9" from them, and popped the double rapid fire strat, that is 40 shots. Then factor in their launchers, add in a captain for re-rolls.
Yeah. If you drop 710 points of Allarus terminators in, with a 110 Point Captain, you can successfully kill 226 Points of Wulfen.
Alternatively, you should be able to do that amount of damage with 6 Aquilon Termies with superior Fire patterns, as they're getting 8 shots apiece in rapid fire range, being able to wound on 3s is very useful.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/07 21:06:06
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
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Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 00:51:47
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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The Aquilons don't do 2 damage per shot, and can't hunt characters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 01:22:07
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
New York
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Or use Venatari, which are S6 AP-2 D2 shots with the pistols.
A squad of six will put down (Edited because I forgot Wulfen get a 5++. Does the Mechanicus know they're given wolf men precious artifice?)
A squad of 6 will put down 1.21 in shooting on their own, 1.43 when rerolling 1's, and 2.96 with the double shots strat. It's not a wipe, but Venatari are quite versatile and it's better than what our other shooting options can do.
If you have to go into melee, Venatari still have a 4++.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/08 01:33:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 01:39:05
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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I'm not going to lie, I don't like the idea of using a unit that really has no specific purpose post wulfen elimination. They don't hold objectives well, they don't deal well against hordes, and they can't hunt characters. I may be showing my anti-FW bias here, but everything that Venetari do "well" is done better by existing units in most base lists, SC on bikes, bike squads, Allarus Terminators, Wardens, and Sword and Board troop teams.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 04:12:55
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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I think a 5-man bike squad with hurricane bolters and some backup might work, single damage high-rate-of-fire weapons are your best change to deal with the multi-wound FNP combo.
Bike squad with Trajan re-rolls and 1CP for Blood Games Veterans does 58.3 hits, 9.7 of which auto-wound. The remaining 48.6 shots get 28.35 additional wounds, for 38.05 wounds. 3++ takes that down to 12.7, FNP means 8.5 or 4.2 dead wulfen.
Also, FWIW 5-man aquilons with Trajan and Superior Fire Patterns gets 38.9 hits, which become 30.2 wounds, 10.1 unsaved with 6.7 making it through FNP for 3.4 dead wulfen.
Additionally, if they get to close combat they have 4 attacks base at S10 AP-3 flat 3, hitting on 3's (4's outside assault doctrine, assuming no bonuses). Scary, but we can 1) Arcane Genetic Alchemy and 2) Emperor's Auspice so now they are wounding only on a 4+ with no re-rolls. Now you can punch them in the face and they each do 1.3 wound to a Custodian before he takes a 4++, and it takes 2 unsaved wounds to kill a terminator. So to wipe a 5-man terminator unit, you need a squad of at least 7 wulfen if the terminators charge and strike first. It's still a miserable trade though for us even if it works out. Hopefully their storm shields go to 4++ and then they become alot less durable and we can kill them easier.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 04:14:35
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Fresh-Faced New User
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I'm not going to lie, I don't like the idea of using a unit that really has no specific purpose post wulfen elimination. They don't hold objectives well, they don't deal well against hordes, and they can't hunt characters. I may be showing my anti- FW bias here, but everything that Venetari do "well" is done better by existing units in most base lists, SC on bikes, bike squads, Allarus Terminators, Wardens, and Sword and Board troop teams.
They’re an great unit that have a much greater potential than wardens do, anything the wardens do allarus do better, while the ventari hit a perfect sweet spot of been able to damage anything, superior firepower Helps them munch hordes,light vehicles and when primaris marines are everywhere s6 -2 d2 is amazing, they’re infantry so they get to abuse cover, tanglefoot to bait charges and they’re mobility allows them to be where they need to be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 15:48:05
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Damsel of the Lady
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Let's ping for advice on another topic.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 15:55:57
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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Audustum wrote:Let's ping for advice on another topic.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/08 17:46:51
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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mrhappyface wrote:Audustum wrote:Let's ping for advice on another topic.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
Their damage output doesn't rack up until turn 3 in assault doctrine, up until that point you're winning exchanges with them. Bikes of our own and aggressively running our terminators up the board to wait for the charge is probably a good bet. Shadowkeepers is great against space marines if you're running bikes cause most marines will wound you on 6's now. Space Marines also rarely get above AP-2 in melee outside of a few guys with thunder hammers, so you get a 2+ on terminators against them with Araumite and Adamantium. I've only played 2 games of 9th so far but one was against blood angels; my biggest mistake was 1) deepstriking my terminators and 2) not shoving my entire army forward. I think being aggressive in kind against melee armies is probably the way to go, I know for me I have to get out of the "castle in the back around the Vexilla!" mindset.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 06:43:20
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Ding ding, we have a winner!
I completely dropped the vexilla from my dread host list.
For one, he's a bit overcosted for his stats. For 2 since im only down to 2 tanks instead of my previous 3 and dense terrain is a thing, the magnifica just isn't as needed. For 3 he's a character and gives up 3 points from secondaries.
I just ditched him. Freed up enough points for me to get a 6th aquillon and daggers on everyone.
I haven't regretted it so far.
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JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 07:35:23
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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iGuy91 wrote:
Lets see.....
36 Shots
Assuming No Rerolls,
30 Hits on 2+
15 Wounds on 4+
5 Wounds go through against a 3++
This would rely on them failing every single FNP however, so it takes closer to 40 shots.
With rerolls, the odds of course improve.
5+++ will negate one wound about half the time(55% to be more exact) soaking another.g d2 So basically you kill 2 per 3 past save. think you are underestimating effect of fnp. It's very good for w2 models vs dam2 weapons. Basically another 4+ save.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 14:17:38
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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Ok, wait, how is a 5/6 equate to 55%? It's literally a 32% chance that they make the roll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 14:33:13
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Because a Wulfen only needs to make a single FNP roll to make killing them (even more) incredibly inefficient when you're trying to kill them with bolters. You're rolling for each point of damage, not per unsaved wound. If they save one damage on a 2d attack, by definition it requires another unsaved wound to kill it (at minimum).
As stated, a 5+++ is exceptional at keeping 2w models alive against 2d attacks.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/09 14:33:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 16:12:12
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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If it's 5+++ you have 55% chance of passing at least one. Which means next dam2 hit is required. Basically same reason why d3 weapons aren't as good as flat 2 vs 2 wound models. When you roll 1 you need another and it doesn't matter how much damage next cause. Over average doesn't compensate failing to kill.
So out of 2 hits one will fail both 5+++ and wolfen dies, another will pass 1 and require another hit. 3 through past shield, 2 dead.
There's another good example. There's 4w model in de that has 6+++ fnp. Doesn't sound much. Unless you are crazy enough to attack them with flat 4 damage weapon that's fairly inefficient as i found causing 4 past reqular save and killing 2. Then i got eaten. That 6+++ was more like 4++. All he needed was roll single 6 out of 4 and one model required another dam4 hit to finish last wound.
That's why vs w2 fnp target you prefer twice the shots at dam1 than half the shots at dam2.
Also means if custodians can get even 6+++ that will really ruin day for lots of weapons and in particular flat3 damage weapons will hate that.
edit: It's possible I have made logic mistake in my code but simulating 100,000 shots by dam2 weapons vs 2 wound 5++ I came to result that it took basically 100 shots to kill 59 models. Obviously even less dead models vs d3 damage weapons.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/08/09 17:27:52
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 19:17:13
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 20:13:24
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Twisting Tzeentch Horror
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
Interesting.
Are there any ways to take damage that aren't from MW in the psychic phase? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
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insaniak wrote:
You can choose to focus on the parts of a hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 20:20:28
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Awesome, thank you for explaining that. So I just learned that our 6+++ applies to any wounds in the psyker phase, not just psychic wounds. So that is fun.
Interesting.
Are there any ways to take damage that aren't from MW in the psychic phase? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
Only one I can think of is the Grey Knight psychic power that enables a unit to move and shoot in the psychic phase. But the rule explicitly says “mortal wound in the psychic phase”.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/09 20:23:07
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/08/09 20:30:19
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
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Twisting Tzeentch Horror
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mrhappyface wrote:Audustum wrote:Let's ping for advice on another topic.
White Scars running the new Primaris bikes. What are our best ways to prevent them from Move+Advance+Charging all over the board and keeping us hemmed back into a deployment zone?
Our bikes are fast, but the stats are somewhat comparable. Looks like first to hit wins that exchange.
Maybe stay on top of objectives, screen your bikes and keep characters near by so you can use the charge in their turn stratagem, the two interupt stratagems and heroically intervene. If they make multiple charges in one turn you should hopefully do significant damage to them at the cost of one unit and a lot of CP.
WS outriders are no real threat to a custodian until T3. If they were to advance and charge straight in (why they would do that I don't know), they would 'only' chuck out 19 str4 attacks, which equates to 4.2 wounds so around 1.5 wounds done. Even if they used the 'still shoot after advance' strat it'd only equate to another wound or so on top, so on average would not even kill a model.
In return, outriders are almost the perfect target for custodes. T5 so wounding on 3s, putting them onto a 6++, and doing multi damage. a squad of 3 spears nearly wipes the squad, let alone any of our other options.
Then seeing as they cost quite a bit and can only be taken in 3s, I doubt even 3 outrider squads in our face T1 would trouble a custodes army. Best they'd serve is as a roadblock.
As someone starting WS for this edition, I'd be very scared of custodes
However if they're saved for T3... then I'd get worried. Mulch bikes and termies completely
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insaniak wrote:
You can choose to focus on the parts of a hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy. |
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