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I dunno, I would like to see more utility thrown to the Wardens, because of the rule of cool, but at the same time, they are, at the end of the day, slightly better Guadians, or slightly worse Terminators. I don't see the point of them, like at all. What do they do well? Terms are better in Melee, Guardians with s/s are better at obj camping, bikes are better at hordes and charging. They are Crappier Terminators that need a lot of CP to even approach useful. They're single best thing is they can be taken in groups of 10, which if you are literally doing that in Custodes, then why?

I say give Wardens some sort of alternate weapon spru that either (Breaks Invulns in melee- Make them really good character killers) or let them take some form of anti-horde weapon. Either Melee or Ranged, like Lightning claws or Assault 3 s5/6 shooty bits. Like, I dunno, an assault HB? It would go a long way to sealing up a big weakness for us (Hordes) and making them slightly less worthless.

5+++ isn't really enough. If we want to go the FnP route

Audustum wrote:
5+++ isn't really enough. If we want to go the FnP route

What else would it take in your opinion?

So I previously proposed to change castellan axes to this profile:

Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on allarus termis only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to the following for the fight phase: S: x2; AP: -2; D: D3+1

How about you make that special ability on the charge unit specific. Say allarus termis get the above ability on the charge to up their dmg on the axes since they are the heavy hitters and wardens get a profile that lets them deal with hordes better like this:

Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on wardens only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, this weapon gains the following ability: excess damage from this weapon is not lost, instead keep allocating damage to another model until all damage has been allocated or the target has been destroyed. So basically on the charge it becomes a deathwing knight flail.

This would distinguish allarus as the high damage dealers and wardens as horde clearers. Would that be enough to give them a purpose in a custodes list nowadays....maybe?

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:
5+++ isn't really enough. If we want to go the FnP route

What else would it take in your opinion?

So I previously proposed to change castellan axes to this profile:

Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on allarus termis only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, change the weapon profile to the following for the fight phase: S: x2; AP: -2; D: D3+1

How about you make that special ability on the charge unit specific. Say allarus termis get the above ability on the charge to up their dmg on the axes since they are the heavy hitters and wardens get a profile that lets them deal with hordes better like this:

Castellan Axe:
S: +3; AP: -2; D: 2
Abilities (on wardens only): In a turn in which the bearer has successfully charged, this weapon gains the following ability: excess damage from this weapon is not lost, instead keep allocating damage to another model until all damage has been allocated or the target has been destroyed. So basically on the charge it becomes a deathwing knight flail.

This would distinguish allarus as the high damage dealers and wardens as horde clearers. Would that be enough to give them a purpose in a custodes list nowadays....maybe?

Sorry, typing on the go. Meant it should be a 4+++ if going that route.

Audustum wrote:

Sorry, typing on the go. Meant it should be a 4+++ if going that route.

You want a 2+/4++/4+++?

Be prepared for Wardens to be 100+ points apiece then.

Wardens atm have 1 extra attack and a 6+++ over guardians.

Cant take storm shields, but can take axes.
Have a dedicated anti-psycher strat.
Not troops.

So they are probably only worth about 3 points more than a guardian base.

Give them a 3+++ againgst mortal wounds and a single deny and have them cost 5 points more than a guardian.

Now they have a purpose.

A plain 4+++ would be too much, a 3+++ against mortal wounds I'd love, but I think it's a bit too oppressive against certain armies.

I'd settle for a 5+++, that goes up to a 4+++ against mortal wounds and a single deny.

I don't see the infatuation with creating multiple profiles for our weapons. This leads us to game table debates as to how many attacks get rolled. Say you have a squad of 6 Wardens with axes. 3 go Reaping swing, and 3 go heavy chop. Which attacks get resolved first? Who gets to choose the Targets? There are too many variables.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't see the infatuation with creating multiple profiles for our weapons. This leads us to game table debates as to how many attacks get rolled. Say you have a squad of 6 Wardens with axes. 3 go Reaping swing, and 3 go heavy chop. Which attacks get resolved first? Who gets to choose the Targets? There are too many variables.

There's literally zero debate about this. 9ths sequencing rules are quite clear.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Sorry, typing on the go. Meant it should be a 4+++ if going that route.

You want a 2+/4++/4+++?

Be prepared for Wardens to be 100+ points apiece then.

They'd be overcosted in that case.

If you just make them more durable in the traditional sense (like ignoring AP or better invuln) then they're treading on the design space of terminators. If you give them a hefty FnP, however, they get a bit unique. I'd say make them a 6++/4+++ (thus 5++/4+++ with the detachment bonus). Terminators are strong against multi-damage weapons with weak AP (like autocannons) because of their stratagem. Sword+Board are strong against low-volume, high damage weapons (because of the 3++). High FnP Wardens would be strong against high-volume, multi-damage attacks but weak(er) to low-volume ones and strong against MW's. It gives them a unique design space in terms of durability.

With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.

 greyknight12 wrote:
With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.

Nice that someone still wants to talk tactics in the Tactica thread. I think considering the factors you've mentioned, as well as the price difference and the T5 breakpoint of Gravis, it probably is the way to go. If you do go Storm cannons on the other hand, you might get better results by firing the first storm cannon, then the Spiculus, then the other cannon.

I think triple Pallas might be a good route too, vs a storm cannon Telemon you get 50 percent more dmg 3 shots for only slightly more points. Only got 2 myself but gonna try em against Marines this weekend

 greyknight12 wrote:
With all the gravis marines, do we think the flat 3 FW weapons have a place? My gut says no, it's overcosted and you get more efficiency out of the stuff with D2 weapons and if marines are rocking an apothecary 3 wounds gives a 50% chance to save one of them, which hugely invalidates the 3 dmg. I'm personally leaning towards taking triple telemon (with accelerator cannons) to spew out damage and be durable enough to have a hope of surviving the eradicators.

The time has come that we get flat 3D weapons. They should have been from the start. Custodes are supposed to be the melee experts in all of the Imperium. Our melee was never better then our shooting most of the time it was worse.

Eradicators are going to kill 3 telemons pretty fast.

6 Eradicators with heavy metla rifes and 2 multi meltas will do 21 dmg to a T8 5++ target when in half range.

If they get in to 12" to a Telemon they will do 13.3 dmg to it.
If you use grim resolve(S:-1 ) and ancient artefice(D:-1) the will do 7.4 and then they will just shoot the two other Telemons to death in the same turn.
If the Eradicators stay the same will delete Custodes pretty hard. We might have to go back to use a lot of 3++ models

Sterling if I didn't know better I'd say you literally wait until I post and pop up. You are like a windows 95 paperclip helper, but your only help is to point out how I'm wrong. Not saying you are wrong, but it's hilarious that it's basically every time. Do you know me personally? Because it seems personal.

Secondly. I still say dynamic melee "abilities" would be broken. These aren't even abilities, they are something that doesn't exist. Weapon profiles that dynamically change the attack profile You get 5 attacks, but if they all go reaping you get 3 for each attack, so 15? Add in exploding 6s, maybe 20? Yeah, 20 S8 attacks at AP2 D3? Suddenly we've gone to plaid on a 70 point model? Don't even want to know why you think that's a good idea.

Audustum wrote:


They'd be overcosted in that case.

Yeah, no. A model that simply by virtue of showing up can shrug off 92% of AP0 fire and 75% of AP2+ fire (and this isnt taking into account hitting and wounding) is ungodly durable.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:


They'd be overcosted in that case.

Yeah, no. A model that simply by virtue of showing up can shrug off 92% of AP0 fire and 75% of AP2+ fire (and this isnt taking into account hitting and wounding) is ungodly durable.

I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.

120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.

6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.

Does anyone have any personal practical evidence of Custodes being deleted by SM lists in the 2k Realm, not conquest or 500pt games. 2k matches. Are we really losing droves of units to SM lists, or is the sky not really falling?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does anyone have any personal practical evidence of Custodes being deleted by SM lists in the 2k Realm, not conquest or 500pt games. 2k matches. Are we really losing droves of units to SM lists, or is the sky not really falling?

I haven't fought the new, new Codex, but last time I went against a bleeding edge hard White Scar list, it was basically a tie and I was not being deleted off the map.

Audustum wrote:


I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.

120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.

6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.

You're asking for a defensive statline that's better than Mortarion's, then kvetching that it's not good enough. That's insanity.

I honestly don't get how people's instant reaction is "Buff the durability of Custodes" as if that somehow even remotely addresses the problem. Eradicators and Melta weaponry in general took a MASSIVE pendulum swing into knocking down big targets. This will pass, it will not remain the standard. IH got nerfed in time, Castellans got nerfed. Hell, even Agressors got nerfed into basically not worth the points now. We will survive this. We are currently still one of the top factions with the toughest Dread in the game, and the strongest Heavy Flyer. We have a baseline 2+4++ across most of our units, and we have ingrained psychic defense that other factions can only dream of.

I can't believe I am the one saying this, but everyone chill out. We are still doing great. We don't need any massive game altering buffs because of one broken unit.

That all being said if FW:Index turns our Aquillons into giant dog turds I'll still wanna cut the rules director in half with a ninja sword.

Aquilons are simple. +1 wound with no points change. Firepikes become a free swap with the bolters. Claws give +1 attack.

Anything other than that is a fail. There is no reason for them to cost 10 points more than allarus/w axe's in their bolter/fist layout. +2 strength and -1 ap isnt worth 10 points and reduced stratagem support.

Giving them +1 wound covers their larger size over allarus and the fact that they cant take as many per unit.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Aquilons are simple. +1 wound with no points change. Firepikes become a free swap with the bolters. Claws give +1 attack.

Anything other than that is a fail. There is no reason for them to cost 10 points more than allarus/w axe's in their bolter/fist layout. +2 strength and -1 ap isnt worth 10 points and reduced stratagem support.

Giving them +1 wound covers their larger size over allarus and the fact that they cant take as many per unit.

So the new buff with lightning claws that I saw is that they count as two seperate weapons, so it's actually +2 attacks....Still, who takes claws when you have fists?

In unrelated-to-anything-previously-discussed news, my codex: custodes and first box of custodes guard have finally turned up (I ordered them online on the 3rd of this month. thats the last time I do that for a while.....). once I have them painted and assembled, I will add pics to my gallery to be ridiculed admired.

on the topic of new edition wishlisting, what i would like would be a second troops option. we have spear guard, and sword/board guard... and thats about it. even with the FW stuff, we are still looking at 3 types of spear guard, sword guard, and the bolt caster guard, all of which are just flavours of the same frigging plastic kit. i'd like some more variety in our troops. not sure what we could have, lore-wise. the only thing i can think of is guardsmen form the imperial palace garrison, but i could never see that happening, what with it giving us cheap chaff units.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:


I think you're focusing a bit on the wrong aspect? That said, your numbers ignore that the protective swing isn't that large cause they're already durable.

120 hurricane Bolter shots (standard Jetbike list) goes from doing 5 wounds to Wardens to...3? 3.5? It's not a huge change. They're already strong against volume AP zip 1 damage. Mass AP1 will be similar. Why? Cause the armor save and hit/wound do more than 6+++ to 4+++ is.

6+++ to 4+++ makes the bigger difference against stuff like Leviathan Butcher Cannons (swing of 12.9 to 7.7 I believe). A 5+++ would be like 10.2.

You're asking for a defensive statline that's better than Mortarion's, then kvetching that it's not good enough. That's insanity.

I'd say it's not better than Mortarion's. T7 is a huge improvement over T5. High T is still one of the best ways to protect a model in the game I believe, followed by invulnerable save and preceded by CHARACTER rule protection.

That said, blame GW if you want for too much lethality. Mortarion isn't very tough and there's a reason we don't see too much of him: he dies too fast. Even with the caveat that he ALSO usually gives himself -1 to be Hit.

As a note, however, I wasn't 'asking' for anything. I simply said that if you're going the route of improving the FnP on Wardens to make them viable, it probably needs to be 4+++ rather than 5+++ before they'd be competitive. I do stand by that analysis.

Giving wardens a 5+++ makes them more durable than Mortarian. Durability is different than ability to wound. For instance run the math of two squads of 3w T5 Wardens (Or 18 wounds total)with a 2+/4++/5+++ vs Mortarian at T7 18W with a 3+/4++/6+++ against a squad of 4 Vertus Praetors. Each get shot in RF range so 48 shots of S4 AP0 D1. Mortarian would take about 3.7 wounds unsaved. The Wardens would take about 1.4. You have better defense than Mortarian against baseline shooting.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
and, just to play devils advocate, do we actaully need a buff at the moment, given how we seem to be doing pretty well so far in 9th (anecdotally)?

however, I agree they need to re-carve our design space and give us back a "niche" that isnt totally shared with marines, as difficult as that may be. they can't really make us much more "elite" without starting to go into literal one man armies, so im not sure where they should take us. one option would be giving us bonus CP as a detachment ability, to let us make more use of the "Individual heroics" stratagems and such.

In the context of 9th as it stands right this second with but 2 codexes out? No, not really.

In the congtext of a 9th that has had 4 or 5 or more codexes out plus a bunch of supplements? Almost certainly. GW rarely makes armies WORSE in their codexes.

Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.

Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.

No we kinda suck againgst demons.

We dont have enough guns most of the time.

We cant handle all the mortal wounds they can deal well.

We cant take out 3 keepers while their contorted epitome makes our shield captains completely useless for a turn.

We have no way to zone them out but they can zone out our deep strikers.


Demons (not mono-khorne though) are a big nope for custodes atm.

Knights poon us as well, but they arent as prevelent atm.

Harlequins have all the tools to nueter us too.

artific3r wrote:
Space marines got a lot worse with their codex. The introduction of <CORE> and the nerfs to Chapter Masters and Aggressors (on top of the earlier nerfs to Centurions) means that suddenly horde armies are looking significantly more viable. Especially plaguebearers and daemons in general.

Obviously Custodes have excellent tools for mowing down horde and elite alike. They are in great shape right now.

I disagree, almost all the marine units that where strong in 9th before the new codex are core even dreads which got buffed(-1D).
Transhuman is 1CP now for units of 5.
Apothecary can bring models back to life for 0CP
Eradiacators are ridiculously OP now
Deathwing is totally broken OP.

Until we see the first born chapter dexs, we can't declare SM nerfed. As we saw with Deathwing, the specialist groups are STILL incredibly deadly. I have a bad feeling about CSM getting two wound marines, then TSs will really eat our lunch....