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Does anyone run a custodes list with lots of FW dreads in? I'm putting together the bits to run a bike and dread list but a little worried about the lack of flexibility and objective scoring. I know allarus sort a lot of those issues out but they feel really expensive for what they do.

This is the list I'm building ATM:

I'd consider making one telemon a fist/cannon combo.

Otherwise, I'd take either the Dread Host or Shadowkeepers, over Aquilon Shield. The ability to have melta wound your telemons on 5s is huge.

Dread host of course helps any deep strike dreads get stuck in.

You may want to double check if you can use eternal penitent more than 1 time pre battle. But (shrug)

I know i have a 2 telemon, 1 Achillus list i use for funsies, so this is familiar.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd consider making one telemon a fist/cannon combo.

Otherwise, I'd take either the Dread Host or Shadowkeepers, over Aquilon Shield. The ability to have melta wound your telemons on 5s is huge.

Dread host of course helps any deep strike dreads get stuck in.

You may want to double check if you can use eternal penitent more than 1 time pre battle. But (shrug)

I know i have a 2 telemon, 1 Achillus list i use for funsies, so this is familiar.

Yeah the shadowkeepers strat does seem the best unless you're running a load of allarus with dread host.

I wanted a tough shield captain but I guess 5+ fnp is close to half damage?

I think you can it says eternal penitent can be used on each dread once but not sure.

it does indeed say that a dread can only be affected by the strat once, which heavily implies it can be used more than once if you have multiple dreads

Core rules state clearly that the 'once per phase' limitation doesn't apply to stratagems used before the battle, like EP.

So with the new changes to Mortarian and 2 wound Plague marines, I'm kinda scared we will lose "most durable" army. I mean, there is really nothing more you can do to buff Custodes, we already cost way more than anyone else, but I don't see how we can take down Morty's new profile, Blight haulters, bloat drones, and hordes of 21 point 2 wound plague marines.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So with the new changes to Mortarian and 2 wound Plague marines, I'm kinda scared we will lose "most durable" army. I mean, there is really nothing more you can do to buff Custodes, we already cost way more than anyone else, but I don't see how we can take down Morty's new profile, Blight haulters, bloat drones, and hordes of 21 point 2 wound plague marines.

We don't know the points on Plague Marines or any of the others yet so we'll have to see. Right now, it's a fair match-up between us. I would expect us to be at a disadvantage once they get a Codex and we're still waiting for ours, but likely not insurmountable.

Morty's profile was originally best taken down by a schlew of Hurricane Bolters (120 shots almost 1-rounded him in Rapid Fire). T8 changes wounding on 5's to wound on 6's, but no MW aura means we can hit him in melee after and not worry about it as much (exploding still hurts though).

I dunn0, 120 S4 AP0 d1 shots don't really do much now to a T8 with character protections, 2+4++5+++. That now does 2 damage to him. Before it did 3 damage.

Add in the spears and it adds a whoping 3 more damage. Bikes don't even drop him to his second bracket now.

Squad of Allarus on the other hand? Just over 8 wounds if they don't double shoot and make the charge with axes.

Our spears and halberds need to be 2d and axes need to be flat 3.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunn0, 120 S4 AP0 d1 shots don't really do much now to a T8 with character protections, 2+4++5+++. That now does 2 damage to him. Before it did 3 damage.

Add in the spears and it adds a whoping 3 more damage. Bikes don't even drop him to his second bracket now.

Squad of Allarus on the other hand? Just over 8 wounds if they don't double shoot and make the charge with axes.

Our spears and halberds need to be 2d and axes need to be flat 3.

He's 3+ not 2+ I believe (even in the new datasheet). 120 shots from Jetbikes, re-rolling 1's to Hit, generally did 8-9 wounds to him so my memory was a hair off but still solid (it was my go-to method for dropping Morty lists).

Anyway, rumor is now that all Death Guard 5+++'s are becoming 6+++'s as well (while one poster called the screenshot for that obviously fake, others seem to be taking it in the News & Rumor thread). The point is we still just don't know enough (for instance, what does the Death Guard doctrine Morty's datasheet hints at indicate?).

Likely, the answer will be to eat him with Adrathic Aquillons and just tank the explosion on the chin (the melee attacks alone should average you 16 wounds with Slayer of Nightmares active).

I know that none of this is "confirmed" but the leaks coming out about the new Deathguard scare the crap out of me. The new crawlers especially.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I know that none of this is "confirmed" but the leaks coming out about the new Deathguard scare the crap out of me. The new crawlers especially.

Haven't seen it, what's scarier than before about them? Better ballistic skill?

better BS, a new ability that basically lets them ignore Tanglefoot or other movement reducing effects, ability to re-roll number of attacks on some flamer-type "Plague" weapons.....yhea, thier getting a lot of new stuff.

also, just got my Aquillions and started assembling them. they've gone together better than i had feared they might, and i'm happy with the casting quality (i was able to cut the parts out with nothing but my standard hobby cutters, though i think a proper knife would have been better).

i'd forgotton how good GW plastic glue was, though, until i was forced to use regular superglue for these guys. suffice to say, i've had real trouble getting the arms and the weapons to stay in place long enough for the glue to set.

Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.


And here's morty

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/12/b565a879-mortarion-rules.png

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.


And here's morty

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/12/b565a879-mortarion-rules.png

If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.

 greyknight12 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.


And here's morty

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/12/b565a879-mortarion-rules.png

If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.

He's got a 4++. He has rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.


And here's morty

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/12/b565a879-mortarion-rules.png

If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.

He's got a 4++. He has rules.

Oh I know...just pointing out that Fezzik's link was very incomplete

 greyknight12 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Typhus gained 2 attacks, +1 to movement, and if terminator rules translate, he'll likely get those.Drones and Crawlers are now BS3 and get an extra attack and wound. Blight launchers are now flat 2d instead of d3. Flamer types are now S6.


And here's morty

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/12/b565a879-mortarion-rules.png

If that is, then good...cause he's got no invul save or psychic powers. I've seen other posts that suggest that he has lost the mortal wounds aura, which would make him easier for us to deal with.
That said, we'll wait and see once the actual book comes out and everyone figures out the synergies.

He's got a 4++. He has rules.

Oh I know...just pointing out that Fezzik's link was very incomplete

Jesus man, I know I can be wrong some times, but admit you messed up and just tried to insinuate a Character in Terminator armor did NOT have an invuln. That's not my fault. That's on you.

Mortarion isn't in terminator armor, apologies for the confusion but that's who I was referring to. He's a Daemon primarch, and that's the source of his invul save. Saying "these are his rules" without any of the special rules part is an invitation to sarcasm at the very least.

Fezzik, when I make a mistake, I'll admit it. You on the other hand spool up and derail conversations with hyperbole and incorrect information, and frankly the only reason I haven't muted you is so that I can dispel the more outlandish strategy/conspiracy rants for new posters who don't know any better. The internet doesn't have to be an outlet for every stream-of-consciousness thought, the same rules apply as to normal conversation.

Honestly, I hate the "elite competitor scene". Every time I hear someone crap on Dakka I defend it because there's something special about everyday 40K players across the world working together to get better at their chosen aspect of the game; whether that's hobby, narrative play, or tournaments. But this thread over the past several pages has basically validated everything the Art of War/Special Patreon Podcast people accuse DakkaDakka of being. There's NO discussion of listbuilding, strategy, or in-game tactics, just pages and pages of wishlisting, paranoia, and hyperbole. No one is even interested in starting a new thread (this one began pre-codex in 8th) despite multiple suggestions/offers to do so. Every attempt to bring the thread back to it's purpose is promptly derailed. You guys are better than this, and it kills me to watch so much potential in this discussion format be wasted.
I'll see myself out.

So im currently participating in Blood and Glory's online 40k league. 4 round tourny, 1 game a week. It's over TTS, and we are in week 2.

My list is very strong, however my attrocious rolling has cause me to loose week 2 game 95-83 to a SoB list.

trajann, shield captain/w CC-strategic mastermind and peerless warrior + The vieled blade.

5x5 saggitarum guard/w daggers -2

5 venetari

1 vindicare assasin




very simple list, easy to play, fast to move, expensive (25 sagg is like $585 or so retail).
Kicks out 60-124 shots per round and up to 130 melee attacks per round as well.
33 infantry in a custodes list is fairly daunting to look at if you arent packing serious heat.

I usually run it emysiries imperatus for The Emporer's Hand strat so i can guarentee i kill something.


Anyone got opinions?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So im currently participating in Blood and Glory's online 40k league. 4 round tourny, 1 game a week. It's over TTS, and we are in week 2.

My list is very strong, however my attrocious rolling has cause me to loose week 2 game 95-83 to a SoB list.

trajann, shield captain/w CC-strategic mastermind and peerless warrior + The vieled blade.

5x5 saggitarum guard/w daggers -2

5 venetari

1 vindicare assasin




very simple list, easy to play, fast to move, expensive (25 sagg is like $585 or so retail).
Kicks out 60-124 shots per round and up to 130 melee attacks per round as well.
33 infantry in a custodes list is fairly daunting to look at if you arent packing serious heat.

I usually run it emysiries imperatus for The Emporer's Hand strat so i can guarentee i kill something.


Anyone got opinions?

The Vindicare has a less than 50% chance of actually killing something usually. I'd swap it for a Culexus to gain access to the fight last strat or an inquisitor (Greyfax, Rex or Draxus) to get denials and a little MW access.

Well, I guess I'm glad that our spears stayed as D3 damage now that Death Guard get -1 to damage.

Having a 1/3 chance to take two wounds off them is better than a 100% chance of only doing one wound if we went to strait 2D.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Well, I guess I'm glad that our spears stayed as D3 damage now that Death Guard get -1 to damage.

Having a 1/3 chance to take two wounds off them is better than a 100% chance of only doing one wound if we went to strait 2D.

While that's true, I'd kinda prefer to the 2D consistency against almost everybody else.

Who has the numbers on a squad of our infantry melee (everything is d3) against a squad of 2w Deathguard with the new change to DR?

I am now going to have to load up melta spears, as they will at least outright kill Plague marines/Terminators within charge range.

So with a squad of new melta spear guardians, they can maybe shoot 2-3 off the table, then charge, and slice maybe another 1-2? Termies get about the same for shooting, but our melee likely won't kill 2.

It's amazing how melta spears just became an optimal loadout. How do Sag's do against blight terminators now?

So its confirmed today from GW

Disgustingly Resilient is a flat -1 reduction of incoming damage, to a minimum of 1.

So....2 damage weapons will do 1 damage to a plague marine.

Actually. It means our D3 wound weaponry might start spiking in effectiveness for those 5-6 damage rolls, and the rest are going to be 1 damage.

It appears to be replacing the old FNP mechanic.

But. That does mean Accelerator Culverins, and Sag Guard 2 Damage Bolter Calivers are not particularly efficient at killing a plague marine.

With their terminators getting +1 wound, and damage reduction, you'll be needing flat 4 damage to drop them easily.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Who has the numbers on a squad of our infantry melee (everything is d3) against a squad of 2w Deathguard with the new change to DR?

I am now going to have to load up melta spears, as they will at least outright kill Plague marines/Terminators within charge range.

So with a squad of new melta spear guardians, they can maybe shoot 2-3 off the table, then charge, and slice maybe another 1-2? Termies get about the same for shooting, but our melee likely won't kill 2.

It's amazing how melta spears just became an optimal loadout. How do Sag's do against blight terminators now?

The 18" beam will drop a PM outright. The 36" shot won't do so hot.

I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.

Hurricane bolters don't have a great time. In range of a Shield-Captain, 10 Jetbikes kill about 6 PM with Hurricane Bolters. On the charge, one Jetbike should kill 2 PM (4 attacks, all hit, re-roll wounds while wounding on a 3+, 6+ armor save and then -1 damage means probably 3 attacks wound, 2 do 1 damage and 1 does 2 damage after reduction). So a squad of 3 Jetbikes kills 6 PM on the charge. 10 Jetbikes kill 20 PM + 6 from Hurricanes for 26 PM. But basically, 1 Jetbike kills 2.5 PM's between the combo of Hurricanes + melee on the charge. Haven't rough mathed anything else in my head.

so yes, aquillons with destructors are still 10ppm cheaper than bikes and kill more PM on average.

Achilles dreads are very attractive againgst PM's as well, as they have the flat 3 shooting and flat 4 melee to take out the terminators.

Telemon with storm cannons or double fist will be the mainstays still, as their autocannon build just got gutted against DG.

Tanks are once more going down in effectiveness, so even more reason to start phasing our formerly best LR threat out of our lists.

Venetari loose half their effectiveness against PM's, which is big as they were the new best ranged threat after their recent buff. This is no longer the case (at least againgst DG).

The Ares is gaining a slight increase in effectiveness against DG, since the bombs are better and it has flat3/4 dmg shooting.

Audustum wrote:

I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.

The Aquillon's won't do that well shooting with their destructors, as they are only two shots and wound on 4s. Closer to 5 or 6 wounds for those. With the PMs saving on a 6+, the Aquillons probably kill between 4 and 5 Plague Marines in shooting with Trajann's aura. Aquillons with bolters under superior fire patterns do relatively comparable damage in Trajann's aura (About 38 or so hits, 19 to 20ish wounds, approximately 9 or 10 failed saves results in about 4-5 dead Plague Marines). My math is just top of my head numbers but it seems like Aquillons of any flavor could be decently effective against Plague Marines.

2 achilles with twin adrathics come out to 380pts (cheaper than a 5 man aquillon squad) and kill a similar amount of PM's.

they average out about 5 dead in shooting and 8 dead in melee. They also kill 6 terminators on average in melee.

In the interest of meeting the request to talk more about tactics and strategies:

'm a little hesitant to throw big cost units like telmons into a horde fight against DG, with their new weapon profiles. I'd rather try and tie them up with Shield boys and maybe chip away with swords while they try desperately to kill me.

It's funny how this change changes the meta on autocannon-like weapons. 48"+ D2 weapons. I mean, they are still great primaris killers, but now the DG basically invalidate Plasma, ACs, and HBs. You either roll LCs Meltas. I'm saying Melta Spears and Sags for TAC lists against DG?

What is the cost difference of an all melta spear guardian squad vs. a Blight Terminator squad? Is it more efficient to just SAG them off the table?

ihockert wrote:

Audustum wrote:

I only just mathed 5 Aquillons in range of Trajann's aura quick for melee. 20 attacks, about 18 wounds dealt. No armor save for PM, no invuln for PM, 1 damage each, kills 9 of them. Adrathic Destructors are flat 3 damage I think so probably good to use those. Should be like 9 wounds, 7-8 go unsaved, 3 damage minus 1 is 2 damage so 7-8 dead PM from that too.

The Aquillon's won't do that well shooting with their destructors, as they are only two shots and wound on 4s. Closer to 5 or 6 wounds for those. With the PMs saving on a 6+, the Aquillons probably kill between 4 and 5 Plague Marines in shooting with Trajann's aura. Aquillons with bolters under superior fire patterns do relatively comparable damage in Trajann's aura (About 38 or so hits, 19 to 20ish wounds, approximately 9 or 10 failed saves results in about 4-5 dead Plague Marines). My math is just top of my head numbers but it seems like Aquillons of any flavor could be decently effective against Plague Marines.

I did the math as wounding on 3's for destructors. My bad. Does seem they're about equal but I'd rather spend points than CP.