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 WindstormSCR wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.

The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.

I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)
.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Given your comments regarding price, I'm assuming you mean regular Custodian Guard.
Running the numbers below - Combining shooting + CC with no captain rerolls.

Bikes
vs T6 3+ - 15.83 wounds
vs T7 3+ - 12.59 wounds
vs T8 3+ - 10.92 wounds

5 Custodian Guard with Spears
vs T6 3+ - 13.19 wounds
vs T7 3+ - 9.72 wounds
vs T8 3+ - 8.33 wounds

I see a similar result even if you change the enemies armour save, take out shooting, etc.
Now, this is assuming bikes have the charge, though with a 14" movement, you really should be. When your only transport is a 400pt landraider, I feel the bikes movement is truly invaluable. The T6 helps to make up for the -3w vs the guard unit.

I'll certainly agree regarding axes though - they are amazing. I'll be running 5 wardens with axes at a minimum.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.

The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.

I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

I agree I'm BAFFLED they didn't give Custodes a Land raider crusader/redeemer. it seems like the logical way toi "pad the codex" I THINK the key to it is the name "venerable" these are meant to be heresy era relics


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so I've got 2 squads of sisters of silence and a rhino. I'm thinking how to kit them into a small detachment to support by Custodes, any ideas on built/HQ choice? flamers seem like a potentially intreasting option as it gives me some anti horde

 WindstormSCR wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.

The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.

I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then the same points in basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.

Ordana wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.

The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.

I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.

Wardens are 62 points each with the Spear and 64 each with the axe (i believe).

The most shocking combo i'm seeing so far is - biker captain advances up turn 1. If he doesnt get charged, potentially use 3CP to charge. TP in a Vexilla with the Praetorian Plate and +1 A banner. Start of your turn, TP in a unit of Terminators using 3 more CP, while the captain flies off. You now have 2 units in terminator armour likely in their lines causing problems turn 2. You could also just TP them in normally, but then risk the 9" charge and likely having to shoot that unit as well.

Super expensive in CP, but... That's what Guard are for! Certainly not something Custodes can do in a pure army.

Whos going to let that happen tho?

Ordana wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.

Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.

The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.

I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!

Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.

The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)


A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.

No unit in the codex can clear chaff like Hurricane bikers. Their about 3x more effective then the same points in basic custodes and a unit of 3 will kill a Guard squad (13 dead on average), opening the gap they need.

Axes are great for combat but the only platform they really come on are Terminators and Wardens and they look to be sub-par, which is bad when your army needs everyone to perform and can't afford to 'waste' points.

Speaking of Wardens. Does anyone know an approximate cost for them? I'm now wondering if its worth bringing a decent sized Warden unit as the main beef.

I think the Allarus can be a solid choice to any pure Custodes army, they can be an excellent complement to the Vertus Praetors by deep striking in and making your jetbikes a less obvious target to shoot at by giving your opponent another immediate threat to deal with (make them more durable by deep striking in a -1 to hit Vexilla). Their associated stratagems are also not to be overlooked, the concussion grenades is a great tool that can support any part of your army trying to get into melee by making units with lots of shots or flamer type autohit weapons much less scary to charge (Wraithguard with D-Scythes are a viable charge target again) and their shoot a character stratagem is better than it sounds given the shooting from their axes/spears do 2 damage a shot and their grenade launchers are AP -3, they can potentially cripple or even outright kill the enemy warlord just from the shooting.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?

Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!

Kdash wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?

Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!

Yeah... It might work once when they don't expect it.
Then they learn to take a step back and resume shooting instead.

Ordana wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whos going to let that happen tho?

Thats the thing though - they generally can't stop it. The Captain charging happens in their charge phase, so does the TPing Vexilla. Then, at the end of your next movement phase, you can TP in the terminators. Essentially, you're the one making all the moves during their turn.

The only way to stop it, is being outside of 12" of the Captain on bike - but chances are they will want to be, in order to try and kill the bikers off.

They could also try to surround the character, but the bike base is pretty big, and, you only have to get within 3" of the Captain.

And, if they do charge the captain and you TP the Vexilla in, they can't target the Vexilla due to them not having declared the charge!

Yeah... It might work once when they don't expect it.
Then they learn to take a step back and resume shooting instead.

Oh, i agree, once used they can likely plan around it, but, for ~516 points, it's a hell of a problem bubble in the middle of the table, that they will then potentially have an issue dealing with - even if you don't drop them into combat.

The lack of other Land Raider Variants is baffling to me as well. It seems like a completely effortless (model wise, at least) thing to do to add some variety to the list. Because really? 13 Data Sheets? That's... not a lot. Especially with nearly half being Characters (HQ variants and Vexilla).

It really is rather obvious this was a rush job codex due to the popularity of Prospero last year. I mean, I'm super happy we have it! But it really could've used more units.

What? Nah. You can make your own! We have rules for them in CA! YAY!

GW said this will not be all for Custodes. So we could expect more Custodes units in the future.

Whats the minimum unit size on alarus termies? cause if its one i was thinking of making a vanguard of a termy captain, a termy, a vexilia, and a contemptor dread to add to my space marines

basedgigi wrote:
Whats the minimum unit size on alarus termies? cause if its one i was thinking of making a vanguard of a termy captain, a termy, a vexilia, and a contemptor dread to add to my space marines

Every unit is 3-10 i believe.

Yeah, whoever told Valrak it was 1 during the reveal event was apparently wrong. :(

A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.

 Galas wrote:
A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.

I want 1 Shield Captain on Bike, and at least 2 units of HB's and 1 other unit, so that means i'll buy 4 boxes, I mean its actually really cheap so i dont mind, but this also means i'll have 2 Spare bikes to play around with.

 Dulahan wrote:
The lack of other Land Raider Variants is baffling to me as well. It seems like a completely effortless (model wise, at least) thing to do to add some variety to the list. Because really? 13 Data Sheets? That's... not a lot. Especially with nearly half being Characters (HQ variants and Vexilla).

It really is rather obvious this was a rush job codex due to the popularity of Prospero last year. I mean, I'm super happy we have it! But it really could've used more units.

10k years ago they didn't have Redeemers or Crusaders.
And I assume the Custodes have not kept their armory up to date with new models.

 Galas wrote:
A shame, you'll end short if you use the box to make the vexilla + captain. Youll need two boxes to have a unit of 4. The same for the bikes, you'll need two boxes minimun.
With the basic squad you don't have that problem because the minimun size is 3.

Well that sucks, I was hoping to get away with only buying one box . Maybe I could do that with the elite guards? Hopefully their minimum is 3 like with normal custodian guard.

I think there are going to be some decent combos with deep striking terminators or wardens, a terminator vexilla with the Praetorian Plate, and fast characters for them to go and "rescue".

A jetbike captain is certainly well-placed to do this. Celestine might be even better.

Sisters are extremely good at killing screens, because they do it in the movement phase using acts of faith. Dominions with heavy bolters can dakka away stuff like scouts and IG infantry squads using the acts you get as standard, and from Celestine and an Imagifer.

The CP cost of doing this with jetbikes is prohibitive, so I don't think that would work. You'd need 3CP to charge him in, then teleport your vexilla to him, then 3 more CP to teleport termies to the vexilla. With Wardens you'd have to pay an extra CP to let them deep strike.

I guess that if you're deep striking something, terminators might be the best option overall. Wardens are the most efficient axe-wielders, but termies do have their grenade launchers and can split up and run around the place in later turns. I still think they are overpriced, and I'm not convinced it's worth all this hassle to drop in a single deep strike charge, but the unit does have a use.

So where do Wardens go? In a transport is my best guess. For now that means just the Land Raider, though hopefully before too long the option of the Coronus will come along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I threw together this list, which to my surprise landed at exactly 2k points (at least based on what we know already). I think it’s quite good but also kind of boring. Once I spotted that you have to pay extra for the vexillae I decided I’d prefer to just have more guys, and messing about with deep strike seems like too much hard work when bikes are so good.

Battalion

Shield Captain with Axe 125

Shield Captain with Axe 125

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

5 Guards with spears 260

Outrider

Shield Captain on Bike 160

3 Bikers 270

3 Bikers 270

3 Bikers 270

Since the Jet Bikes have Fly, can't they jump over most bubble wrap when charging? The wrap could move closer to what its protecting in order to deny them room to land, but at least that constricts the bubble's sprawl.

I never envisaged taking one initially, but a basic shield Captain with axe seems like an absolute steal for 125 points when you look at what he brings to the table. He will outmatch any similarly priced CC units or characters (aside from maybe the dedicated Character hunters) pretty handily I would imagine.

Then again, its ONLY 35 points extra to make him a bike...

Audustum wrote:
Since the Jet Bikes have Fly, can't they jump over most bubble wrap when charging? The wrap could move closer to what its protecting in order to deny them room to land, but at least that constricts the bubble's sprawl.

Depends on the Wrap, if there is room or not, but yes you can. Its all situational, its an Option that you can do

yeah, 3 shield captains on bikes seems like it's too good to pass up. Character protection, 3++, FNP, good toughness/wounds...Yes please

Dakka hordes, charge anything tougher.

I hate the supreme command detachment in general but I think I may make an exception for this.

Recommended bits to turn a box of 3 bikers into 3 captains?

So I was doing math last night, did I screw this up or do Inceptor Lances do better against Imperial Knights than Warden Axes? I compared a unit of 3 Wardens and a unit of 3 Bikers against T8 3+ no invulnerable.

The result was a difference of about 7.5 wounds (axes) to 10.3 wounds (lances). Now the lances are worse for subsequent turns because they lose shred, but the Knight's almost half dead on the charge from just 3 bikes.

Yeah that’s the way it works. Lances get two chances to wound, needing a 5+. That’s better odds than one chance on a 4+. It’s 5/9 for the lances, vs 1/2 for the axes. Lances also have better AP.

I’m starting to think spears might be preferable to axes, for the same reason. There’s a stratagem to give spears +1 to wound - and a stratagem to give axes -1AP. The end result is that spears give you wounds on a 2+ against more targets (up to T5 instead of T4 for axes) and have better AP too,

Even without the stratagem, spears are basically fine against anything. To be honest, so are axes, lances and sword and board. They all perform very similarly.

I don't know.

Spears wound T4 with 3+, T5 with 3+, T6 with 4+, and T7 and T8 with 5+.
Axes wound T4 with 2+, T5 with 3+, T6 with 3+, T7 with 3+ and T8 with 4+.
Axes still seem more versatile for me, and the times you'll need to use the stratagem on Spears for that +1 to wound will be more than the times you'll use the -1AP on Axes. Is not like Custodes will have a ton to CP to burn one a turn to give your spears (Only one unit) +1 to wound when you could have axes instead.

The more I tinker, the more I like Allarus Custodians.

there are so many little quirks and combinations, and the ability to DS vexillas and shield-captains where they'll do the most good is pretty ace.

The praetorian plate does begin to seriously concern me though for some soup lists.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
The more I tinker, the more I like Allarus Custodians.

there are so many little quirks and combinations, and the ability to DS vexillas and shield-captains where they'll do the most good is pretty ace.

The praetorian plate does begin to seriously concern me though for some soup lists.

My original idea was using Celestine and someone with the plate, but, the more I think about it, I feel like a captain on a bike is better (not to mention cheaper). I feel like you are just relying on Celestine’s “I’m alive again” ability just to get where you need to be.

Something deep striking or dropping in with the Raven Guard stratagem could also work, but it’s all about getting your opponent to charge you, or to get into combat during their turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, points costs from the News & Rumours thread.

 nordsturmking wrote:
from Bolterandchainsword forum:


a post made by LaLongCarabine

Well I got my hands on a scan of the points values for the codex. Someone care to remind me on rules on posting pics of copyrighted material prior to release?



Until then here we go.

Allarus 3-10, 70pts
Guard 3-10, 40pts
Wardens 3-10, 49pts
Shield Captain - 110 pts
Allarus Shield Captain - 130
Dawneagle Shield Captain - 150
Venerable Dread - 130
Venerable Raider - 283
Vertus Praetors 3-10, 80
Vexilus Praetor - 80
Allarus Vexilus Praetor - 100



Balistus grenade launcher - free
Castellan axe - 14
Combi bolter - 2
Guardian spear - 12
hunter killer - 6
hurricane bolter - 10
Kheres assault cannon - 25
Multi melta - 27
Salvo Launcher - 25
Sentinel Blade - 9
storm bolter - 2
Twin H. bolter - 17
Twin lascannon 50

DCCW - 40
Interceptor lance - free
Misericordia - 4

Storm shield (character) - 15
Storm shield (other models ) -10
Vexilla defensor - 20
vexilla Imperius - 50
vexilla magnifica - 30


Confirms minimum squadsize of 3 for bikes no room for error.
For some reason the Dreadnought went up by 28pts
Land raider is now 36pts more expensive. (go figure that one.)
And Storm shields are now 5pts heavier.


I guess they decided they'd sold enough land raiders and dreads....

If this is the case, then i'm going to have to potentially re-consider my idea of running a Vanguard detachment, cos the cost of those banners are... big - especially the +1 attack one.

Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?