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Using Celestine or a Jetbike SC runs into the same problem, your opponent can just fall back and shoot on their turn so they won't be in range come the enemy charge phase where the plate triggers. You could use Stooping Dive to charge the SC but at that point it costs way too much CP to only maybe get that combo off, at that point I'm not sure it's worth spending 6 CP for both that and the Vexilla teleport homer

Not many things can Fall Back over 12". You won't be in guaranteed charge range but it'll be close enough to try.

Puscifer wrote:
Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?

I think the only wargear they come with is the dagger,

Beyond the banner, i dont think they have any options at all.

Kdash wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Can the Vexilus Praetor have a Storm Shield and Misericordia?

I think the only wargear they come with is the dagger,

Beyond the banner, i dont think they have any options at all.

There are plenty of pics in the dex of them with Storm Shields, so I would assume they can get them.

Termie armor banner bearer can take a misercordia and has the grenade launcher

normal is a misprint I think....Looking at the codex..

He has all the banner abilities but says its armed with a spear axe or storm shield.

Says he can replace his spear axe or storm shield with a misercordia
If he does not replace his wargrear with a misercordia it may take a misercordia.

Maybe im reading it wrong, but misercordia is just the dagger soooo he can take a spear and the banner?

str00dles1 wrote:
Termie armor banner bearer can take a misercordia and has the grenade launcher

normal is a misprint I think....Looking at the codex..

He has all the banner abilities but says its armed with a spear axe or storm shield.

Says he can replace his spear axe or storm shield with a misercordia
If he does not replace his wargrear with a misercordia it may take a misercordia.

Maybe im reading it wrong, but misercordia is just the dagger soooo he can take a spear and the banner?

Shield, Sword or Misericordia I can understand.

Spear and Axe??? How?

Yeah, that does sound like a misprint.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what I have built so far...

Shield Captain = 128.
Castellan Axe, Misericordia.
Shield Captain = 134.
Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield.
Shield Captain = 134.
Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield.

Vexilus Praetor = 129.
Magnifica, Storm Shield, Misericordia.
Vexilus Praetor = 129.
Magnifica, Storm Shield, Misericordia.

Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.
Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.
Custodes Squad = 281.
2 with Guardian Spears, 3 with Sentinel Blade and Storm Shield.

1497/1500.

Just need to add to it. Most likely going to be with Jetbikes.

Sorry, its Spear, Axe, Or StormShield

Still seems odd, but you can take the Stormshield, the Banner, and the Misercordia. (which youd do all the time as keep your banner alive and still can use dagger)

As for your list, depending on opponent, id either be full spear, or 1 shield and rest spears. +3 to the invuln really isn't a big difference. You are saving 7 points to be far more killy and have a better threat range.

Custodes are like Harleys in a way they play. You need to be fast, precise, and cripple your opponents biggest threats ASAP or its over. They are plenty tanky on their own, don't need to spend points on trying to increase that.

I face Orks, Eldar, IG, Dark Eldar, Marines of all flavours, Chaos. It’s quite diverse.

I can see where you’re coming from. Might drop them to two Storm Shields, but one isn’t enough for incoming Lascannon or Lance fire. Two always sures up that problem.

I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?

Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?

The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.

Puscifer wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?

The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.

Right, sorry, I was unclear. I meant the +1 improvement of a shield over a spear (4++ to 3++).

So, best list is 12 bike captains, right? In 4 Supreme Command Detachments?

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, best list is 12 bike captains, right? In 4 Supreme Command Detachments?

If you're allowed that many detachments I think there's a good argument it is, yeah.

Might need an outrider at 2k since most tournaments limit it to 3 detachments (if you want to stay pure Custodes).

Audustum wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I disagree. Only Jet Bikes are fast. The rest of your army needs to maximize survivability in order to actually live long enough to do anything. That means shields over spears. You want kill you get axes or lances, which are hands down better than sword or spear at killing.

If you're not running a battalion, you might never want to have anything but axe or lances. If you are running one, I'd focus on keeping the troops survivable than axes or lances on the rest.

And didn't someone say on the previous page that the shields are like 50% more survivable cause of that +1?

The invulnerable save bonus caps out at 3+. I’m in favour of playing a mobile brick and winning by attrition through toughness, but there is merit to both sides.

Edited the edit...

I can go to 1750 by adding 3 Alarus with Axes and Balistus.

Right, sorry, I was unclear. I meant the +1 improvement of a shield over a spear (4++ to 3++).

Ahhhh kk. Yeah that’s correct. With the Magnifica Banner giving -1 to hit, Custodes are really difficult to shift.

SO thinking about it....

If you were to say.. ppssshhh do a 500pt tournament 1 detachment.. so um, take Supreme Detachment, and um.. only Captains on Bikes.. i mean.. idk.. thats what 4 bikes?

How/who can beat that at 500pts?

We're pricier than you think! 4 Captains on Bikes with Hurricane Bolters is 680. Even 3 is 510. So you'd only have 2 and then either a foot slogging HQ or an elite like a Preator.

I'd say your biggest danger comes from people who can sling mortal wounds cheap (Primaris Psykers for example).

I don't think lots of biker captains would be better than lots of normal bikers. One biker captain is good because he can hide pretty well, but a swarm of them out in front would be shot at anyway.

At that point you may as well have the multiple targets, and far more firepower, that you get by having more guys. You also get quite a few more spear attacks by taking ordinary dudes.

Unusually, taking normal bikes doesn't give you many more wounds though. Actually captains give you about the same number of wounds per point as normal bikers - so normal bikers aren't tougher exaclty. But they are quite a lot more dangerous.

Mandragola wrote:
I don't think lots of biker captains would be better than lots of normal bikers. One biker captain is good because he can hide pretty well, but a swarm of them out in front would be shot at anyway.

At that point you may as well have the multiple targets, and far more firepower, that you get by having more guys. You also get quite a few more spear attacks by taking ordinary dudes.

Unusually, taking normal bikes doesn't give you many more wounds though. Actually captains give you about the same number of wounds per point as normal bikers - so normal bikers aren't tougher exaclty. But they are quite a lot more dangerous.

You know what, i double check the points, the Bikers are better b.c its 3 captains and thats it, vs 1 captain 3 bikers

But the same idea, 4 Bikers, is this possible to beat?

With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...

 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

At lower point games you see mass -1 compare to just guns like Bolters and Lascannons. You'll see units with HB's instead of ML/Lascannons, etc... More boies with slightly better weapons is better than 3 less bodies with 1 good weapon.

At least from past experience when i used to play large amounts of Combat patrols (even did a few tournaments for them back, i wanted to try to win Adepticon and others). A list for SM i would do would be Captain, 3 Devs all with 3HB's, 1 ML (and the armorim thingy) with +1 body.

Tho i havent tried much low points in 8th, i always love the game mode, i'm thinking about starting a month event at my local doing low point games and thought about Custodes.

 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...

I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.

Audustum wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...

I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.

Yeah but if you play against Custodes you're still going to shoot your bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults and so on at them - right? It's awful but it's better than nothing. I agree it's not a particular threat.

I think the thing that swings the argument against for spears for me is that the enemy can just shoot at something else instead. If your guards have shields then your opponent is even more likely than normal to shoot his lascannons at your bikes, wardens and terminators. Making your least threatening unit also your toughest unit means they'll live and other stuff will die. Better to make them as scary as possible - which means giving them spears.

They might even manage to shoot dead the odd plasma gunner as they plod forwards.

However, I do think there's probably a case for maybe one sword and shield guy in each 5 man squad. He can tank for as long as he lives, and this doesn't significantly increase the cost of the unit. Every subsequent shield guy is increasingly less likely to be needed, so you'd be better off having a spear.

Another army option is buy 7 boxes of bikes.

2 Outrider detachments.

1 Captian in each on bike, and 3x3 units of bikes each. 20 total models. You give each of them the dagger and that's exactly 2000 points.

Could even have some of it deepstrike. Could easily do turn 1 charges. Its all Hurricane Bolters though

str00dles1 wrote:
Another army option is buy 7 boxes of bikes.

2 Outrider detachments.

1 Captian in each on bike, and 3x3 units of bikes each. 20 total models. You give each of them the dagger and that's exactly 2000 points.

Could even have some of it deepstrike. Could easily do turn 1 charges. Its all Hurricane Bolters though

Basically what i'm doing, i just placed an order for 4 boxes, only b.c i wasnt going to do a full 2k points with them, tho i might actually b.c its the cheapest army in the game now.

Mandragola wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
With the storm shields vs spears debate - don't forget that for the points of 5 storm shields you can have a whole extra custodian. Is 3++ on a unit really worth 3 extra T5 2+/4++ wounds, plus the extra damage output the extra custodian provides? The storm shields make you flatly LESS durable against AP-1, AP0 and mortal wounds (which are probably the biggest concern for a custodian army)

I do think that custodian infantry will be horrifically slow though. The jetbikes are very interesting however...

I think someone said it'd take like 108 Bolter shots to down a Custodian. It's not actually very efficient. Using them as an Index army, I much more fear rapid fire plasma.

Edit: My math says it takes 81 shots, on average, to kill a Custodian with Bolter fire. It takes 40.5 S4 AP-1 shots to do the same. It takes 27 S5 AP-1 shots to do it. Not an efficient method to kill Custodes at all in my opinion.

And that's just to kill 1 model not 1 unit. Triple all of those for a minimum squad.

Yeah but if you play against Custodes you're still going to shoot your bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults and so on at them - right? It's awful but it's better than nothing. I agree it's not a particular threat.

I think the thing that swings the argument against for spears for me is that the enemy can just shoot at something else instead. If your guards have shields then your opponent is even more likely than normal to shoot his lascannons at your bikes, wardens and terminators. Making your least threatening unit also your toughest unit means they'll live and other stuff will die. Better to make them as scary as possible - which means giving them spears.

They might even manage to shoot dead the odd plasma gunner as they plod forwards.

However, I do think there's probably a case for maybe one sword and shield guy in each 5 man squad. He can tank for as long as he lives, and this doesn't significantly increase the cost of the unit. Every subsequent shield guy is increasingly less likely to be needed, so you'd be better off having a spear.

Maybe it's because of different gametypes we play. My meta uses NOVA missions and NOVA is the only big tournament I go to. Most NOVA missions are 2 objectives in (or near) your deployment, 2 in (or near) opponent's, 1 in center. So I'm expecting my Guards to draw a LOT of fire because they're my primary objective parkers for home + center.

Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise

Kzraahk wrote:
Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise

LR's lost 5++ and got 6+ FNP instead. Dunno about Dreads.

They just lost the 5++ as they already had the 6+ FNP.

Audustum wrote:

Kzraahk wrote:
Do Dreads and LR get a new buff? I don't see how they could justify making them more expensive otherwise

LR's lost 5++ and got 6+ FNP instead. Dunno about Dreads.

they already HAVE a 6+ FNP in the index, so yeah nerfed

Ouch, extra lame.