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Audustum wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What is Custodes best option for anti tank?

I'm thinking of the Leman Russ variety.

Melee.

For shooting: the missile launcher for the bikes gets the best math results. The problem is just that you're paying too much for it. It won't be cost effective. The Hurricane Bolters aren't bad for glancing and are probably second best in rapid fire range.

Forgeworld just released beta rules (free and online) for Custodes units they sell. Those present MUCH better options than the Codex. The Caladius Tank having the most potential from my point of view, but I still need to experiment.

But how do you get most of them into melee With the tanks?
9" deep strike charge seems too unreliable.

Out of curiosity, how do you guys rate this list? Pure Custodes, 2000 points;

Battalion
Shield Captain on Jetbike (Warlord) : Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour : Castellan Axe

Custodian Guard (3) : 2 Guardian Spears, 1 Storm Shield and Sentinel Blade
Custodian Guard (3) : 2 Guardian Spears, 1 Storm Shield and Sentinel Blade
Custodian Guard (3) : 2 Guardian Spears, 1 Storm Shield and Sentinel Blade

Vexillus Praetor : Castellan Axe, Vexilla Magnifica

Vertus Praetors (4) : Hurricane Bolters
Vertus Praetors (4) : Hurricane Bolters
Vertus Praetors (4) : Hurricane Bolters


I'm considering doing a pure Custodes army, and other than maybe trying to get an extra CP by cutting back on either the Jetbikes or the Vexillus to get another HQ in to run both a Battalion and an Outrider, I'm not sure what to change. Is it worth giving up the -1 to-hit or a Jetbike or two to try and fit an Outrider in (i.e. an extra HQ)? I like the Allarus Captain as he has both an Axe and can freely Deep Strike wherever I might need him, i.e. if I want to Deep Strike a unit or two and provide them with re-rolls of 1s to-hit. Seems like for Troops going 2 Spear/1 Shield and Blade is ideal. Anti-tank is left to combat, generally speaking very few vehicles of note will survive a charge from a unit of 4 Vertus Praetors. Also, tactics wise, would you advance the Praetors first turn for the extra 6" or don't do that so they can stay in range of the Vexillus? I get that there's no need to put him in Allarus as you should be in combat on turn two with the bikes and he can't keep up with them at that point anyway, and he can't take a good melee weapon in the Allarus version.

Thanks for any tips for a potential newcomer to the army. I want to try and make a competitive pure Custodes force, I know they'll have weaknesses and bad matchups but I'm keen to give them a shake in any case and it seems like bike-heavy is the way to go.

 dan2026 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What is Custodes best option for anti tank?

I'm thinking of the Leman Russ variety.

Melee.

For shooting: the missile launcher for the bikes gets the best math results. The problem is just that you're paying too much for it. It won't be cost effective. The Hurricane Bolters aren't bad for glancing and are probably second best in rapid fire range.

Forgeworld just released beta rules (free and online) for Custodes units they sell. Those present MUCH better options than the Codex. The Caladius Tank having the most potential from my point of view, but I still need to experiment.

But how do you get most of them into melee With the tanks?
9" deep strike charge seems too unreliable.

It is too unreliable. Current strats rely on just tanking the firepower while Bikes with fly rush up the board, jump over chaff and engage.

Alternatively, some people were experimenting with deep striking a Vexilla (either by strat or in Allarus) and then using the strategy to set a unit up within 3" of the Vexilla. Alternatively, you could use a fast moving character like Celestine, put the Praetorian Plate on the Vexilla, then swap the Vexilla in once she is in combat and use the deep strike strat. So far people seem to think that's more effort than it's worth but it's an option.

We're tanky enough you can reasonable expect to soak one turn of firepower after deep striking without being too hurt, but we do have a bit of a problem closing the distance to connect our melee power.

 Primark G wrote:
Best shield captain is on bike with 3++ and 5++ FNP. I’d like to take the ranged missile launcher but the hurricane bolter is better for clearing out chaff.

"“Can” isn’t “likely”. If you are thinking “I’m gonna take this Redemptor and it’s gonna *own* those pesky jetbikes” you are going to be sadly disappointed."

I typically cast MoH and VoT on my Redemptor so good luck with that plus a close by CM.

So what do we get to add to our points for that Librarian you bought?

Also wanna tell us the odds of casting both on the Dread?

I run Tiggy who can reroll failed psychic tests so it works out more often than not.

 Primark G wrote:
I run Tiggy who can reroll failed psychic tests so it works out more often than not.

1. That's not a percentage.
2. And the other chapters not allowed to use Tigger?

Nope, the blue bros get all the good stuff Slayer.

I feel that trying to run mono-custodes is an exercise in frustration.

Supreme command bikes, maybe a vex or some wardens if you really need more gold on the table to give a hard hitting mobile element to an imperial army seems to be the best way to play them. A 2x biker captain fast attack with 3 x 3 bikes is too many points to really get enough other imperial elements to fill in for the weaknesses of the army IMHO.

If your opponent doesn't deal with the bikers (and whatever is protecting them from being targeted) turn 1 or 2 they will wreck whatever plans they have. This leaves the rest of your army free for a turn or two to get stuff done.

They seem to work well with tanks/dreads (GMNDKs vanguard with assassins gives your enemy an immediate turn 1 threat that they won't have split firepower to deal with them and some bike captians, I feel like this is the marine morty and magnus)

3-4 LRBTs also put a lot of high toughness, mobile units on the table (1-2 dakka 2 battle cannon seems ideal). Hell pair them with some guard and a shadowsword (2x supreme command and a battalion) and you cover pretty much all threats.

With how good the DA flyer is a couple of those some plasma bikers and the -1 vehicle they have makes a super mobile army that is hard to hit and resilient to any sub s6 shooting.

Pair them with anything that can get in your opponents face turn one (celestine + sisters in firing port transports) and you apply a lot of pressure to the enemy and can saturate their heavy guns since the golden boys are so damn hard to kill.

You pretty much need a guard battalion for those sweet CPs and if I knew how hard guard were going to get nerfed in the next re-balance I'd be more likely to go full out but I'm going to have to wait and see what happens (if guardsmen go up to 5 points ebay will get some cheap ones)

You need some objective campers (raven guard intercessors + scouts) some help with heavy armor, something to deal with turn 1 charges and some psychic defense. Those are the chinks in the golden armor I see.

 Primark G wrote:
Best shield captain is on bike with 3++ and 5++ FNP. I’d like to take the ranged missile launcher but the hurricane bolter is better for clearing out chaff.

"“Can” isn’t “likely”. If you are thinking “I’m gonna take this Redemptor and it’s gonna *own* those pesky jetbikes” you are going to be sadly disappointed."

I typically cast MoH and VoT on my Redemptor so good luck with that plus a close by CM.

And the goal posts keep on ever moving....

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok I’m not sure what’s gone on for the last page or so, but let me try to sum it up and simultaneously put the issue to rest:

1) the redemptor dread, if it’s a little lucky, kills a bike or two before being murdered by his friends. If he’s not lucky, he dies without killing a single bike

2) average math is the only math that bears understanding. It’s a dice game. Anything can happen. But I’ve had people say “Mortarion can do 100+ wounds in a single turn”.....yes technically, but no.

Can we get back to tactics now? Like has anyone put this “I’m going to take only hurricane bolters and use pokey sticks for melee” strategy and actually tried it, or is this all just blowing steam? I still have 9 more bikes to assemble before I can run my list. So next Friday hopefully

Yes In a recent game against elder I took 3x3 squads of bikes a 2 captain bikes, then a battalion of sisters, so 3x5 battle's 2 dominion squads with stormbolters, and a unit of serephim with 4 inferno pistols and celestine and a cannoness. As with all my games love the hurricane bolters efforts against chaff,characters and horde's, as for the bigger stuff a squad took 4 wounds off of one wave serpent in a turn of shooting which was nice but was made up for having my other squad charge into the other wave serpent and cause 4 damage after saves and spirit stones and 5 before it, 10 hits, (no rerolls thanks to the captain having to deal with 40 guardians in my backline), after rerolls 5 wounds he saved 1 with his 6+ then i rolled 2,2,1,1. Prior to that game i had taken a unit of 6 that charged a wave serpent, that just managed to kill it after saves and spirit stone saves it took 14 wounds

Ordana wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Best shield captain is on bike with 3++ and 5++ FNP. I’d like to take the ranged missile launcher but the hurricane bolter is better for clearing out chaff.

"“Can” isn’t “likely”. If you are thinking “I’m gonna take this Redemptor and it’s gonna *own* those pesky jetbikes” you are going to be sadly disappointed."

I typically cast MoH and VoT on my Redemptor so good luck with that plus a close by CM.

And the goal posts keep on ever moving....

There’s a lot of faith here, but none of it is good.

Played a 1000pt game yesterday,

Lists
Shield Cap; relic bike, fnp 5+ salvo
3x3 Bikes
995pts lol

He had a standard SM gun line with Lascannons, ML's, Razorback (tho HB ones) some scouts and he took a WW for fun.

Missions
I tabled him by turn 4.
We played Retrieval Mission with Hammer and Anvil deployment.

My full army was deployed on the line some LoS blocking and some cover (tho it was hard for me to get cover). He deployed in cover fully to gain 2+ saves.

I had 4 drops for i wont he +1 to go first, i won going first.

Turn 1:
Me: I moved everything up 14" and shot 6 Bikes that was in range, killed 3 Marines.

Him: He shot everything at 1 unit. Killing 2 Bikes.

Turn 2:
Me: I moved up, 2 full units and Shield Captain in Rapid fire range, took out Lascannon Squad and some scouts, the Single 1 bike left on other squad killed a Marine and then charged, kill s few more Marines

Him: He shot everything killing another bike, Melee killed the single bike that was in combat.

Turn 3:
Me: Moved up, shot everything, killed the rest of the Marines, 2 scouts left up top a building and the vehicles took a couple wounds, charge the vehicles they are now down to 1-3 wounds
Him: He did w/e he could and did manage to kill another bike

Turn 4:
He knows i only need to do 4 wounds and scoops


Notes and Conclusion

His list for sure wasnt good, i understood why he took them to try and 1-2 shot the bikes, if he got 4 wounds in he had the ability to kill 2 bikes, so in theory he wanted to kill 4 bikes turn 1. But really dice dont add up well, he did get 2 Lascannon damage rolls but both were only 2 damage and he even re-rolled the 1st one (was a 3, trying to get a 4) and ended up only killing 1 bike.
As for the Custodes... Hurricane bolters next to a Captain is actually an insane amount of Dakka, Turn 2 i had 82 bolter shots, between turns 1 and turn i had 126 shots, my Shield captain failed all Salvo shots (the to wound rolls).

I told him to take some Primairs and a Librarian, i want to play him again with Primairs Marines and not a WW.

I do think, if you are going pure bikers, it behooves you to take some melta missiles to soften up and kill armor. Especially leman russes.

But, obviously the best way to play is to simply have a detachment from another army with good anti tank weaponry.

stratigo wrote:
I do think, if you are going pure bikers, it behooves you to take some melta missiles to soften up and kill armor. Especially leman russes.

But, obviously the best way to play is to simply have a detachment from another army with good anti tank weaponry.

Thats what i'm doing, i'm going to be running SoB with Melta as my AT, or i might throw in Xiphon Fighter. As of right now my "base" for my 2k list is 10 Bikes, 3 units of Seraphim, Celestine, Vexilus, Culexus assassin, this gives me 350 more points to think about what i want.

Impressive win - well done.

I saw an interesting list in the competitive warhammer Reddit and figured I'd ask the audience about it. I know everyone is high on bikes - rightfully so - but I'm probing for uses for other units. Anyway, his list was essentially a supreme command detachment with bike captains, 2 allarus captains, and a unit of 10 allarus that come in and unleash the lions. Allarus don't seem like a particularly worthwhile choice, given that bikers are basically just 6 points more for the extra move and toughness, but I do like the idea of dropping 10 units in my opponent's face immediately.

I don't know that the durability that arises from having MSU outweighs the considerable firepower and mobility bikes bring to the table, but it's an interesting concept to me. You can hem an opponent in on one side fairly completely, but you probably can't catch him if he just kites you. Bike captains will help on that front, but that still a ton of points slogging across the field. Worth a try, maybe?

Did he post info regarding to how his army is performing? I would like to know. I don't think you need 10 terminators but if it is working for him well then okay.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I saw an interesting list in the competitive warhammer Reddit and figured I'd ask the audience about it. I know everyone is high on bikes - rightfully so - but I'm probing for uses for other units. Anyway, his list was essentially a supreme command detachment with bike captains, 2 allarus captains, and a unit of 10 allarus that come in and unleash the lions. Allarus don't seem like a particularly worthwhile choice, given that bikers are basically just 6 points more for the extra move and toughness, but I do like the idea of dropping 10 units in my opponent's face immediately.

I don't know that the durability that arises from having MSU outweighs the considerable firepower and mobility bikes bring to the table, but it's an interesting concept to me. You can hem an opponent in on one side fairly completely, but you probably can't catch him if he just kites you. Bike captains will help on that front, but that still a ton of points slogging across the field. Worth a try, maybe?

I can see what its trying to do and the appeal of it. 10 separate terminator targets. More risk of over killing and wasting firepower. Reduces the effect of debuff powers. You can't Doom 1 big group but only 1 guy.

As you said lack of mobility is a thing tho. Against a bigger army that can cover the board you need to deepstrike in 10 terminators in the center or you will never reach everything.
Deep strike screens, which are pretty common in competitive play also hose you. It'll be turn 3 before you can bring your terminators down where you want. And thats assuming the Bike Captains live long enough to clear chaff. Else your dropping far out and spending 2 turns just walking to get into combat.

It can be a fun trick to pull but I don't see it having long term success.

Yeah i have a friend making an Army to just do that, but i think its one of those things that you see the list, you know what they are doing and just work around it easily for the most part.

Did he post info regarding to how his army is performing?

He didn't. I'd also like to know how he was doing, but I'm assuming the Allarus group is going to perform much like my Deathwing Knights do when they're not transported. That is to say, they're never going to catch anything. One huge difference between those units is that you have 10 charge rolls instead of just 1, and I'd wager that just getting 1-2 Allarus in combat is enough to knock down most chaff units. Really, though, the extra movement is the most important aspect of making the charge.

Deep strike screens, which are pretty common in competitive play also hose you.

Indeed they do. You'd have to land outside of screen distance and then just hoof it the best you can. I don't think waiting to drop is a good plan since you wouldn't really have all that much firepower to actually clear screens. Bikes definitely look way better in that regard.

Deep strike screens, which are pretty common in competitive play also hose you.

Indeed they do. You'd have to land outside of screen distance and then just hoof it the best you can. I don't think waiting to drop is a good plan since you wouldn't really have all that much firepower to actually clear screens. Bikes definitely look way better in that regard.

The problem with competetive Warhammer like this is that games are ending in 3 turns or less in tournaments, so a big drop in unit that spends its first turn killing chaff and its second getting into position has just wasted two thirds of the game as opposed to just under half

They are hard to shift holding objectives.

 Primark G wrote:
They are hard to shift holding objectives.

Yeah, but so are Custodian Guard and they're cheaper.

They don't do as much damage.

 Primark G wrote:
They don't do as much damage.

No they don't, but they do enough to clear and hold an objective. If your enemy has 10 life it doesn't matter if you do 11 or 10,000 damage: enemy is still just as dead.

They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

 Primark G wrote:
They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

By how much, though? And in fact, if you spend equal points, not equal models, are they STILL less likely?

252 gets you three Allarus with Axes.
260 gets you five Custodian Guard with Spears.

In shooting, Allarus have 3d3 additional S4 AP-3 shots if within 12", but the regular Guard get you 67% more shooting with the main weapons.

All these numbers assume Rapid Fire and Charge, but no nearby Captain.

Against GEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 10/3 wounds with both weapons, for 10/3 dead from the Grenades and 25/9 dead from Axes. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds. So that's 10/3+25/9+25/3, or 14.44 dead GEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 50/9 wounds, for 125/27 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 125/12 wounds. So that's 125/27+125/12, or 15.05 dead GEQ.

Against MEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/4 dead from Axes and 25/12 dead from Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved. So that's 5/4+25/12+50/9, or 8.89 dead MEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/12 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 25/3 wounds, and 125/18 unsaved. So that's 25/12+125/18, or 9.02 dead MEQ.

Against TEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/6 unsaved wounds from Axes (upped to 5/3 for 2 damage) and 5/3 for Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 25/6 unsaved, which multiplies by 2 to 25/3 damage dealt. So that's 5/3+5/3+25/3, or 11.67 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 10-11 in actuality).
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/18 unsaved and 25/9 damage. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved, up to 100/9 damage dealt. So that's 25/9+100/9, or 13.89 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 12-13 wounds in actuality).

So, for 8 points more, you get:
-2 more bodies (critical for holding objectives)
-More damage against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs (and who else will outnumber you on an objective? I don't see Leman Russes doing that often).
More wounds (15 versus 12)

And mostly only are penalized in that you lose efficiency every 3 wounds, rather than every 4.

Also at most Lascannons etc will only do 3 Wounds?

I don't think Primark G has an understanding of how math works.

The damage output is almost identical - not enough to say guard is better in this regard.