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They forgot a lot of things. Give Forgeworld some time and hope the points are reasonable.

They have axes... S10 would be nice though... but we have the equivalent of CSM VotLW.

 Primark G wrote:
I think grav tanks could make Custodes well rounded if FW does a great job.

Having to rely on force world for a well rounded army does not feel great

Thems the breaks.

even with just the GW supplied stuff we've got most of the bases covered, Not was optimal as we may like but we have tools to deal with most things. I'm curious how many points those new baby knights are gonna be, if they're only 150ish points like some are speculating, one or two will ba a fantastic supplement to custodies

I'm guessing Armigers will be around 200 points or more

Kzraahk wrote:
I'm guessing Armigers will be around 200 points or more

Mathammer wise, if they do they're garbage compared to comparable units. We'd need Knight Specific ability from their codex to justify that.

Updated my last list to be able to handle Psykers a bit better hopefully. I have 2 variations one I will post below, the other runs Hector Rex, Sisters of Silence, and a Culexus. Lemme know what you guys think:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [96 PL, 1789pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (1 Relic)

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [23 PL, 420pts]
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor [7 PL, 134pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [15 PL, 270pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Inquisition) [15 PL, 195pts] ++

+ HQ +

Inquisitor [5 PL, 55pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Ordo Hereticus
. Psyker: Terrify

Inquisitor [5 PL, 55pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Ordo Hereticus
. Psyker: Dominate

Inquisitor Greyfax [5 PL, 85pts]: Terrify

++ Total: [111 PL, 1984pts] ++

Can both Captains on jetbikes have a 3++ ?

 Primark G wrote:
Can both Captains on jetbikes have a 3++ ?

The relic called "Auric Aquilis" gives 3+ invulnerable save to one Shield-Captain on jetbike.
The other relic named "Eagle's Eye" improves another character's invulnerable save by 1 point, which combined with Adeptus Custodes detachment bonus gives 3+ invulnerable save.

Having 2 Captains on Bikes with 3++ has been SUPER good for me. They’re monsters in melee, and are hard to take out, especially since one has a 5+ FNP (which can be moved to the other if you use Shoulder the Burden). Additionally, I’ve been using Victor of the Blood Games, which saves CP over the course of the game.

A minor change to my list, I dropped the Vexillus Praetor out of termi armor, and gave the two inquisitors Plasma Guns, will help me tank busting if the Allarus can’t get into melee with them.

So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?

I’m not sure where I saw it, but someone mathhammered out the saved wounds between the -1 to hit and 5+ fnp. I may try out Radiant Mantle, at first I thought it was only against ranged attacks. And if it stacks with a Vexillus it’s pretty sweet.

Audustum wrote:
So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?

possiably keeping their warlord close to a velexus preator?

Audustum wrote:
So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?

the math favors superior creation a bit I believe, but I'm tired and could be a bit delusional

Audustum wrote:
So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?

The -1 to hit will only really help against low WS/BS attacks. Since alot of things your warlord will fight are WS2, you're only reducing damage taken by 1/5, or 20% (WS/BS3+ is a 25% reduction), while a 5+++ reduces wounds taken by 33%. Also, -1 to hit does nothing against psychic attacks (think smite/mortal wounds) or auto-hits, while FNP does.

Interesting! I hadn't seen any math on it yet. it does stack with the Vexillus Praetor though to make it -2. It also forces Captain Slamguinus's to -2 when trying to fight your warlord (or any other Thunder Hammer/Power Fist/Unwieldly) I think.

If any of you find the math, mind copy/pasta'ing it here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?

The -1 to hit will only really help against low WS/BS attacks. Since alot of things your warlord will fight are WS2, you're only reducing damage taken by 1/5, or 20% (WS/BS3+ is a 25% reduction), while a 5+++ reduces wounds taken by 33%. Also, -1 to hit does nothing against psychic attacks (think smite/mortal wounds) or auto-hits, while FNP does.

There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

Audustum wrote:
There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.

KampfKrote wrote:

Audustum wrote:
There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.

Which is surprisingly a lot of lists. My meta is all competitive mindset and tournament practice. Everyone is bringing shooting lists designed to crush half your force in T1 or heavy T1 assault lists (in which case Radiant Mantle is helping by turning unwieldy weapons into -2). I usually park the Vexilla by the Caladius after T1/T2 (if he runs and advances the bikes can usually keep a toe in range).

That's why I'm curious to explore the math though. If Superior Creation really comes out better in realistic scenarios then yeah, I intend to take it.

Actually the math on the two is not quite that simple.

Superior creation does indeed stop 33% of the wounds you take, thus effectively bringing your wounds from 7 to 10.33ish

Radient mantle gives a -1 to hit againgst all attacks, which becomes more important againgst Multi-damage attacks.


Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.

It’s a hard choice but a 5++ FNP with 7 wounds is a thing now.

Not to mention how unattractive the -1 to hit makes it to shoot plasma at him. With a 3++ save and 7 wounds, you would really hate to overheat plasma on him unless you were Dark Angels.

Anyone have any smart ideas about how to deal with a Vvarha Battlesuit or 2 using Custodes?

They have disgusting flamers for overwatch which are extended to 14 inch range with the correct Sept trait, as well as the other powerful gun. Damage 3, good strength and AP all round so pretty much a Custodes vaccum cleaner.

Its relatively weak vs long range shooting as it only gets a 5++, but in close it goes to a 4++, plus drones to worry about.

You basically can't charge it thanks to overwatch.

Terminator concussions grenades don't work because its not INFANTRY.

Salvo lanchers are ok but sub-optimal, because for some reason its not a VEHICLE either, so you don't get the Melta rule kicking in.

Any other ideas? I'm not sure Custodes could reasonably handle even one of these things without dipping into imperial soup for cheap AT guns.

5+ Bike squad is best thing we have against it. You will loose 2 bikes when you charge it, but should kill it in return (especially with the start to get extra attacks).

To add insult to injury have a bike captain with the banner to let the dead guys shoot when they die and all his drones should be dead too.

tau seem to be a strong scew against custodes. Charging a tau line gives them a second shooting phase.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.

Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.

KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.

The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.

Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)

So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.

Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.

KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.

The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.

Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)

So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.

Thanks! This is really informative. You're my hero of the day.

I might still run it because I'm worried about dueling a very particular kind of opponent (the Captain Slamguinus that's all the rage) and he's already getting a -1 from his hammer, so seems worth it, but you're right: as a general all-rounder Superior Creation is above the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:
Anyone have any smart ideas about how to deal with a Vvarha Battlesuit or 2 using Custodes?

They have disgusting flamers for overwatch which are extended to 14 inch range with the correct Sept trait, as well as the other powerful gun. Damage 3, good strength and AP all round so pretty much a Custodes vaccum cleaner.

Its relatively weak vs long range shooting as it only gets a 5++, but in close it goes to a 4++, plus drones to worry about.

You basically can't charge it thanks to overwatch.

Terminator concussions grenades don't work because its not INFANTRY.

Salvo lanchers are ok but sub-optimal, because for some reason its not a VEHICLE either, so you don't get the Melta rule kicking in.

Any other ideas? I'm not sure Custodes could reasonably handle even one of these things without dipping into imperial soup for cheap AT guns.

So the best thing I can think of is this:

Take a Jetbike Captain with a 3++ and Victor of the Blood Games. Make him charge first. He should survive the Overwatch. Then slam it with another unit of bikes behind him and just try to rip it down.

Alternatively, and this is counter-intuitive for us, take a big units of Swords+Shields and Spears, like a maxed out unit, then use Avenge the Fallen after they get hurt in Overwatch to compensate.

Bikes are your friends against Y'Vahras. Dakka the drones away, and charge it with enough stuff to kill it in one go. It flies, so if it lives through your assault, you get to eat another round of turbo-flamering. As mentioned, it's going to gun down 2 bikes on overwatch, so make sure you've got a healthy squad plus a shield captains or something going in.

Audustum wrote:


Take a Jetbike Captain with a 3++ and Victor of the Blood Games. Make him charge first. He should survive the Overwatch. Then slam it with another unit of bikes behind him and just try to rip it down.

Alternatively, and this is counter-intuitive for us, take a big units of Swords+Shields and Spears, like a maxed out unit, then use Avenge the Fallen after they get hurt in Overwatch to compensate.

I like the bike captain idea, good way to abuse that 3++ and reroll to charge. With the 5+++ WL Trait and Blood Games rerolls he should statistically only take 3-4 wounds I think.

The big Custodian Guard unit intrigues me also, but my friend's a smart player and probably knows I have to charge it to kill it. I don't think he will position it within easy charge range of a 500-600 point unit on foot. Bikes of course have no such troubles.

Ever kill Mortarion or Magnus with pure Custodes? How?