Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

Usually they aren't math wise, except against certain tanks. I'm guessing that was the primary AT in the list?

I think he had missile for shield-cpts and hurricane bolters for jetbike squads.

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

I can run the math against various targets if you want. Just list which ones.

 JNAProductions wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

I can run the math against various targets if you want. Just list which ones.

All after moving (seems unrealistic to expect you won't have to move a 24" to get in range)

T7 3+
T7 3+ (Hard to Hit Flyer)
T7 3+ 4++
T8 2+

With and without CP re-roll to the damage roll, if possible.

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

He runs a Battalion of Custodes, so iirc he did this to have a Anti-Armor option, which many of us supplement with BA, etc.

I don't think the numbers have them being too much better than bolters, though, and they're obviously worse against every other target.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

He runs a Battalion of Custodes, so iirc he did this to have a Anti-Armor option, which many of us supplement with BA, etc.

I don't think the numbers have them being too much better than bolters, though, and they're obviously worse against every other target.

Which BA units?

The numbers don't show how much harder it is to get within 12" than 24".

karandrasss wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

He runs a Battalion of Custodes, so iirc he did this to have a Anti-Armor option, which many of us supplement with BA, etc.

I don't think the numbers have them being too much better than bolters, though, and they're obviously worse against every other target.

Which BA units?

The numbers don't show how much harder it is to get within 12" than 24".

Slambo will basically one shot any high armor value target in existence.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

He runs a Battalion of Custodes, so iirc he did this to have a Anti-Armor option, which many of us supplement with BA, etc.

I don't think the numbers have them being too much better than bolters, though, and they're obviously worse against every other target.

Which BA units?

The numbers don't show how much harder it is to get within 12" than 24".

Slambo will basically one shot any high armor value target in existence.

Is that the TH/SS Captain? How's Custodes supposed to have enough CP for him?

Assuming a captain for all, will do math both with and without movement. Assuming it's a vehicle for all but T7 3+/4++ (Daemon Primarchs), who are also assumed to always be flying.

T7 3+
Bolters do 35/6 hits at 24", which is 35/18 wounds, and 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 70/81 wounds, and 245/81 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/9 hits, 56/81 wounds, and 196/81 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 7/9 wounds and 7/9 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/12 wounds, and 7/12 damage.

T7 3+ Supersonic
Bolters do 14/3 hits, 14/9 wounds, and 14/27 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 196/81 damage. (See math above.)
4+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 49/27 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 7/9 damage.

T7 3+/4++
Bolters do 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missiles does 35/36 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 245/216 damage.
3+ Melta Missle does 7/12 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 49/72 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.

T8 2+
Bolters do 35/6 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/216 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 105/144 wounds, and 3,675/1,728 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 7/16 wounds, and 245/192 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 35/81 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 28/81 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 7/27 damage.

Now, applying the math, we'll assume as equal points as possible. So, with Salvo Launchers, we have 175 for the Captain, and 105 for each Praetor. For bolters, we have 160 for the Captain, and 90 for each Praetor.

6 total Salvo Launchers (one on a Captain) are 700 points, 7 total Hurricane Bolters (one on a Captain) are 700 points.

Assuming they move, you're looking at...

4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+.
14.52 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the clear winner, even at 12".

3.63 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+ Supersonic.
10.89 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Again, Missiles win.

4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+/4++.
5.83 damage from Flakk Missiles against the same.
Missiles win at 24", but lose at 12".

1.13 damage from Bolters at 24" against T8 3+.
7.66 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the winner.

HOWEVER! An important note to make here is that a lot of the stuff you'd want to fire missiles at, you'd also want to CHARGE. And Praetors can charge even flyers. So ask yourself, is anti-tank more important than anti-horde?

If you do consider anti-tank more important, then yeah, go for the missiles. They win against most.

Slamaguinius is a bit overkill with Custodes imo... especially of you are running a lots of dawneagles.

karandrasss wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
So are Salvo Launchers better than Hurricane Bolters? Took Geoff to the top 8 of Adepticon, at least.

He runs a Battalion of Custodes, so iirc he did this to have a Anti-Armor option, which many of us supplement with BA, etc.

I don't think the numbers have them being too much better than bolters, though, and they're obviously worse against every other target.

Which BA units?

The numbers don't show how much harder it is to get within 12" than 24".

Slambo will basically one shot any high armor value target in existence.

Is that the TH/SS Captain? How's Custodes supposed to have enough CP for him?

He's like 5-6 CP optimal. It's a "use CP on this instead" build.

We're going to probably be putting more value into units like slamguinius who can make the first unoverwatchable charge with a reroll before allarus or bikes go in. With tau back on top with the t'au faction we're going to get hurt a lot by overwatch as basically an extra shooting phase.

Charge him into anything that isnt Infantry or cant be terrified to stop multiple units overwatching your custodes.

Meatgrinder wrote:
We're going to probably be putting more value into units like slamguinius who can make the first unoverwatchable charge with a reroll before allarus or bikes go in. With tau back on top with the t'au faction we're going to get hurt a lot by overwatch as basically an extra shooting phase.

Charge him into anything that isnt Infantry or cant be terrified to stop multiple units overwatching your custodes.

Things like Tau are the only reason I'm using a unit of Terminators. Their ability to deny overwatch is the only powerful feature about them, but it's usefulness is undeniable.

On Salvo Launchers:
Normally I would not take a salvo launcher, but if you have 15-30 points spare in a list. What else are you going to spend it on?

You can take a few Misericordia's and add a mediocre attack to your great cc models or you can take that extra bit of AT poke.

On the BA captain:
Its a scalpel. A precision tool that just removes something threatening from the game (by hitting it with a big hammer)

Custodes are good at combat but none of it as good, for as cheap (not counting CP) and as reliable (3d6 re-rolling charge).

Allarus are good at many things and I believe their grenades only affect infantry so be careful.

Yeah, one or two Salvos wouldn't go amiss.

That being said, if you do take more than one, take them in different squads. That way, you can either remove them first (if you're against Hordes) or last (Tanks) as well as split-firing as needed.

 Primark G wrote:
Allarus are good at many things and I believe their grenades only affect infantry so be careful.

Mediocre at many things is more how I'd describe them, given their points cost.

Praetors do pretty much everything they do better.

Geoff Robinson has stated they are viable and that is good enough for me seeing his recent showing at Adepticon.

The problem with spreading Salvo's around is getting them to be able to shoot at the same target.
Tho this will ofc heavily depend on what terrain your dealing with.

 Ordana wrote:
The problem with spreading Salvo's around is getting them to be able to shoot at the same target.
Tho this will ofc heavily depend on what terrain your dealing with.

Fair enough. Given the bikes' mobility, though, probably not TOO much of an issue.

 Primark G wrote:
Geoff Robinson has stated they are viable and that is good enough for me seeing his recent showing at Adepticon.

Not good enough for him to actually bring any tho ^^
No one is denying they are Viable. They certainly are.
But they are (in most cases) worse then Bikes

It is totally list dependent and that is what he meant. Sometimes the Allarus are the better choice which is what he said.

 Primark G wrote:
It is totally list dependent and that is what he meant. Sometimes the Allarus are the better choice which is what he said.

When are they the better choice?

I will answer that tonight when I can address it fully.

 Primark G wrote:
Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.

Allarus fall apart when facing an enemy with fly that they cannot one shot, or fail that whole 8 inch charge in the first place. There's a lot of armies that falls in to.

Do you think I only run Allarus?

 Primark G wrote:
Do you think I only run Allarus?

No but you constantly claim things like 'Allarus are superior to Jetbike Custodes in many situations' and 'Jetbikes have weaknesses so you should not build an army around them'. You then have nothing to back up these bold claims when people call you out and provide hard evidence that refutes your statement, yet you keep coming back to the thread and saying the same things.

If you don't like Vertus Praetors that much, thats fine its your army. But don't come into this thread and keep spouting inaccuracies about them like you have done for the last 20-30 pages.

/Rant

I have often explained in-depth the strengths of Allarus and the weaknesses of Vertus Praetors.


I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.

I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.

Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.

I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?

Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming a captain for all, will do math both with and without movement. Assuming it's a vehicle for all but T7 3+/4++ (Daemon Primarchs), who are also assumed to always be flying.

T7 3+
Bolters do 35/6 hits at 24", which is 35/18 wounds, and 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 70/81 wounds, and 245/81 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/9 hits, 56/81 wounds, and 196/81 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 7/9 wounds and 7/9 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/12 wounds, and 7/12 damage.

T7 3+ Supersonic
Bolters do 14/3 hits, 14/9 wounds, and 14/27 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 196/81 damage. (See math above.)
4+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 49/27 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 7/9 damage.

T7 3+/4++
Bolters do 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missiles does 35/36 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 245/216 damage.
3+ Melta Missle does 7/12 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 49/72 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.

T8 2+
Bolters do 35/6 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/216 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 105/144 wounds, and 3,675/1,728 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 7/16 wounds, and 245/192 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 35/81 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 28/81 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 7/27 damage.

Now, applying the math, we'll assume as equal points as possible. So, with Salvo Launchers, we have 175 for the Captain, and 105 for each Praetor. For bolters, we have 160 for the Captain, and 90 for each Praetor.

6 total Salvo Launchers (one on a Captain) are 700 points, 7 total Hurricane Bolters (one on a Captain) are 700 points.

Assuming they move, you're looking at...

4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+.
14.52 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the clear winner, even at 12".

3.63 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+ Supersonic.
10.89 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Again, Missiles win.

4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+/4++.
5.83 damage from Flakk Missiles against the same.
Missiles win at 24", but lose at 12".

1.13 damage from Bolters at 24" against T8 3+.
7.66 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the winner.

HOWEVER! An important note to make here is that a lot of the stuff you'd want to fire missiles at, you'd also want to CHARGE. And Praetors can charge even flyers. So ask yourself, is anti-tank more important than anti-horde?

If you do consider anti-tank more important, then yeah, go for the missiles. They win against most.

So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?

The back-and-forth about Allarus vs Vertus Praetors is a bit tired. Allarus are obviously the weaker choice based on the "eye test," and the math has borne that out repeatedly. Can we all just agree that Primark found some amazing and long-lasting wacky tobacky and move on after he names his source?

Anyway, it does surprise me some that salvo launchers made it to a high-achieving Adepticon list. They don't seem like they'd be worth the points at all. On the flip side, horde control is often in short supply for tiny elite armies, so hurricane bolters are a great match..