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 Lance845 wrote:
SW is a franchise that until disney aquired it had about 2.5 good movies out of 8 and a fan base that rages and hates harder than most.

Its one of the worst things to be in charge of and i would LOVE to watch you be in charge.

People say stuff like that all the time, but despite all the memeing the Prequels have an audience the same way the new films will - among the kids who saw them as their first experience of Star Wars. It's more accurate to say that SW had 6 popular films, though the first three were more popular than the latter, and a huge secondary base of storytelling in books, comics, videogames, and eventually TV that were broadly well regarded though also widely acknowledged as containing more than a few tales that were either rubbish or divisive.

As for the idea that SW fandom is uniquely toxic, that's as garbage as the idea that modern fandoms in general are toxic, or misogynist, or whatever other nonsense they've decided is the reason for a poor reception for their effort other than the apparently utterly impossible "they just made something lots of folk disliked because it wasn't very good or didn't meet their entirely-reasonable-in-context expectations".

I'd happily be in charge of Star Wars, because A: I'm capable of distinguishing disappointment expressed by someone with passion for something from "rage and hate", B; I'm capable of acknowledging that people can dislike something without being motivated by some deep underlying crypto-bigotry, and C; I have the two braincells necessary to grasp that just because the internet can amplify the voices of the tiny minority of genuinely obsessive nutballs or just outright bigoted trolls that always have and always will exist in any fandom for any thing, doesn't mean they're actually a valid measure by which to judge the whole of the fandom, and that I shouldn't use that tiny minority as an excuse to slander the wider fandom in a desperate attempt to protect my job if the decisions I make while in charge don't result in the expected financial return.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
While we're on the topic of that character, one thing I picked up on with a second viewing was that Enfys mentioned the Crimson Dawn were acting 'in league with the Empire' when they committed the atrocities in her story. I wonder if that lends some more credence to the theory that

Spoiler:

ultimately, Maul is still answering to Palpatine in some capacity. The Emperor thus uses Vader to enforce the law and Maul to control/monitor those elements that exist outside it.

That also fits with the theme that comes up a few times in Solo that everyone answers to someone eventually.

I doubt Maul was willingly working with Sidious, after the events involving Mother Talzin, not to mention his later role in Rebels. I could see it more as profiteering and abusing the corruption present in the Imperial system, similar to how he used Prime Minister Almec as a figurehead when he took control of Mandalore.

TBH that whole potential arc is the reason I'm annoyed that Kennedy's bumbling might have killed all the anthology films.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I hate watching stuff at home because of the constant stream of idiot questions and commentary from the two women in my life.

"Who's that bloke?"
"Why's he got a gun?"
"Why's he got a hat?"
"Isn't his hat stupid?"
"What's a Maltese Falcon anyway?"

Me: "Sigh..." "The film explains all these things, if you actually watch it! That's what it's for!"

At the cinema they have to shut up and actually watch the film.

that's my wife as well, only she's worse because she should know better. she worked at a comic book store for years, didn't recognize captain marvels icon. she's a star wars fan, my son binged watched the clone wars for what seemed a year on Netflix, she didn't know Maul was alive and asked who the guy at the end of solo is. And to make it all the worse it's only towards the end where she'll ask me to basically recap the movie so I miss the wrapping up dialogs.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
SW is a franchise that until disney aquired it had about 2.5 good movies out of 8 and a fan base that rages and hates harder than most.

Its one of the worst things to be in charge of and i would LOVE to watch you be in charge.

People say stuff like that all the time, but despite all the memeing the Prequels have an audience the same way the new films will - among the kids who saw them as their first experience of Star Wars. It's more accurate to say that SW had 6 popular films, though the first three were more popular than the latter, and a huge secondary base of storytelling in books, comics, videogames, and eventually TV that were broadly well regarded though also widely acknowledged as containing more than a few tales that were either rubbish or divisive.

The prequels do hav an audience. And this new trilogy ALSO has an audience.

As for the idea that SW fandom is uniquely toxic, that's as garbage as the idea that modern fandoms in general are toxic, or misogynist, or whatever other nonsense they've decided is the reason for a poor reception for their effort other than the apparently utterly impossible "they just made something lots of folk disliked because it wasn't very good or didn't meet their entirely-reasonable-in-context expectations".

ALL fandoms are toxic. But I didn't see the Star Trek fandom write petitions when Into Darkness was a rehash of Wrath of Khan but worse and soulless.

I'd happily be in charge of Star Wars, because A: I'm capable of distinguishing disappointment expressed by someone with passion for something from "rage and hate", B; I'm capable of acknowledging that people can dislike something without being motivated by some deep underlying crypto-bigotry, and C; I have the two braincells necessary to grasp that just because the internet can amplify the voices of the tiny minority of genuinely obsessive nutballs or just outright bigoted trolls that always have and always will exist in any fandom for any thing, doesn't mean they're actually a valid measure by which to judge the whole of the fandom, and that I shouldn't use that tiny minority as an excuse to slander the wider fandom in a desperate attempt to protect my job if the decisions I make while in charge don't result in the expected financial return.

None of which qualifies you to have any idea what so ever what it means to run a multi billion dollar studio with thousands of employees organizing and building several movie, tv, and game projects projects at a time. I would ALSO love to see you thrown into the meat grinder of the thing you think your capable of and watch you flounder.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
SW is a franchise that until disney aquired it had about 2.5 good movies out of 8 and a fan base that rages and hates harder than most.

Its one of the worst things to be in charge of and i would LOVE to watch you be in charge.

People say stuff like that all the time, but despite all the memeing the Prequels have an audience the same way the new films will - among the kids who saw them as their first experience of Star Wars. It's more accurate to say that SW had 6 popular films, though the first three were more popular than the latter, and a huge secondary base of storytelling in books, comics, videogames, and eventually TV that were broadly well regarded though also widely acknowledged as containing more than a few tales that were either rubbish or divisive.

As for the idea that SW fandom is uniquely toxic, that's as garbage as the idea that modern fandoms in general are toxic, or misogynist, or whatever other nonsense they've decided is the reason for a poor reception for their effort other than the apparently utterly impossible "they just made something lots of folk disliked because it wasn't very good or didn't meet their entirely-reasonable-in-context expectations".

I'd happily be in charge of Star Wars, because A: I'm capable of distinguishing disappointment expressed by someone with passion for something from "rage and hate", B; I'm capable of acknowledging that people can dislike something without being motivated by some deep underlying crypto-bigotry, and C; I have the two braincells necessary to grasp that just because the internet can amplify the voices of the tiny minority of genuinely obsessive nutballs or just outright bigoted trolls that always have and always will exist in any fandom for any thing, doesn't mean they're actually a valid measure by which to judge the whole of the fandom, and that I shouldn't use that tiny minority as an excuse to slander the wider fandom in a desperate attempt to protect my job if the decisions I make while in charge don't result in the expected financial return.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
While we're on the topic of that character, one thing I picked up on with a second viewing was that Enfys mentioned the Crimson Dawn were acting 'in league with the Empire' when they committed the atrocities in her story. I wonder if that lends some more credence to the theory that

Spoiler:

ultimately, Maul is still answering to Palpatine in some capacity. The Emperor thus uses Vader to enforce the law and Maul to control/monitor those elements that exist outside it.

That also fits with the theme that comes up a few times in Solo that everyone answers to someone eventually.

I doubt Maul was willingly working with Sidious, after the events involving Mother Talzin, not to mention his later role in Rebels. I could see it more as profiteering and abusing the corruption present in the Imperial system, similar to how he used Prime Minister Almec as a figurehead when he took control of Mandalore.

Spoiler:

Willingly? No, and by Rebels he'd clearly either decided to try and get out from under Palpy's thumb or been cast aside and managed to avoid the inevitable attempt to murder him, but IIRC after Sideous kills Savage and beats Maul at the end of the CW crime syndicate arc, he says "Don't worry, I'm not going to kill you. I have...other uses for you *evil badguy cackle*." - using what Maul had already achieved in order to exert influence over the galactic underworld seems like exactly the sort of thing Palpatine would do; he would never accept Maul back as a Sith, but he's shown willing to use other dark side Force-wielders as tools to further his own goals providing he's certain he can control them.

TBH that whole potential arc is the reason I'm annoyed that Kennedy's bumbling might have killed all the anthology films.

They released a canon comic surrounding what happened to Maul after he was defeated by Sidious in TCW. He's basically used as bait to get Mother Talzin into the open and Sidious + friends succeed in doing so. Maul escapes, but with a tattered Shadow Collective, Sidious rules him out as any further threat and basically ignores him. The last that's really heard of him is his brief clash with Ahsoka on Mandalore. So I can't really see him being involved with Pappy the way you say he does.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
SW is a franchise that until disney aquired it had about 2.5 good movies out of 8 and a fan base that rages and hates harder than most.

Its one of the worst things to be in charge of and i would LOVE to watch you be in charge.

People say stuff like that all the time, but despite all the memeing the Prequels have an audience the same way the new films will - among the kids who saw them as their first experience of Star Wars. It's more accurate to say that SW had 6 popular films, though the first three were more popular than the latter, and a huge secondary base of storytelling in books, comics, videogames, and eventually TV that were broadly well regarded though also widely acknowledged as containing more than a few tales that were either rubbish or divisive.

The prequels do hav an audience. And this new trilogy ALSO has an audience.

I get that you're in a mood right now, but it always pays to read what folk write before replying. I mean crikey, me saying that exact thing isn't even part of a different sentence...

As for the idea that SW fandom is uniquely toxic, that's as garbage as the idea that modern fandoms in general are toxic, or misogynist, or whatever other nonsense they've decided is the reason for a poor reception for their effort other than the apparently utterly impossible "they just made something lots of folk disliked because it wasn't very good or didn't meet their entirely-reasonable-in-context expectations".

ALL fandoms are toxic. But I didn't see the Star Trek fandom write petitions when Into Darkness was a rehash of Wrath of Khan but worse and soulless.

Errr, no chief, all fandoms have an equivalent fractional tiny minority who're toxic, there's a difference. And if you think that part of the Star Trek fandom didn't go full HULK SMASH about JJTrek generally and Into 9/11 Conspiracy Lunacy With Your Host Brandypants Cucumberlump in particular, you weren't paying much attention.

I'd happily be in charge of Star Wars, because A: I'm capable of distinguishing disappointment expressed by someone with passion for something from "rage and hate", B; I'm capable of acknowledging that people can dislike something without being motivated by some deep underlying crypto-bigotry, and C; I have the two braincells necessary to grasp that just because the internet can amplify the voices of the tiny minority of genuinely obsessive nutballs or just outright bigoted trolls that always have and always will exist in any fandom for any thing, doesn't mean they're actually a valid measure by which to judge the whole of the fandom, and that I shouldn't use that tiny minority as an excuse to slander the wider fandom in a desperate attempt to protect my job if the decisions I make while in charge don't result in the expected financial return.

None of which qualifies you to have any idea what so ever what it means to run a multi billion dollar studio with thousands of employees organizing and building several movie, tv, and game projects projects at a time. I would ALSO love to see you thrown into the meat grinder of the thing you think your capable of and watch you flounder.

Wowza. You do understand that the actual work that bigtime executives do doesn't actually require some superhuman level of ability that mere mortals cannot hope to possess, right? And hey, if I floundered, at least I wouldn't be doing any worse than the folk running it at the moment

 Grimskul wrote:

They released a canon comic surrounding what happened to Maul after he was defeated by Sidious in TCW. He's basically used as bait to get Mother Talzin into the open and Sidious + friends succeed in doing so. Maul escapes, but with a tattered Shadow Collective, Sidious rules him out as any further threat and basically ignores him. The last that's really heard of him is his brief clash with Ahsoka on Mandalore. So I can't really see him being involved with Pappy the way you say he does.

I didn't say he was anything, I speculated - I don't read the comics so as far as I knew Mandalore was the last appearance of Maul before now.

Ah the Toxic Trekkies, havent heard from them in a while, but they certainly do exist, and are much much louder than the Fem Wars fans, not has unbearable though.


Did you see the backlash against Disco yod?

People trying to claim SJW's took over trek, adding same sex romance etc. to it, like it wasnt doing that for the last 40+ years... I dislike the Righttards as much as the Lefttards these days haha

I didnt say it required super human work. I think it requires a particular set of skills and experience. Assuming you or any of the jack holes on the internet could simply walk in and do better is as laughable as me walking into boeing and taking over the design and construction of a new jet.

You have no idea what your doing.

And i didnt see any of the trekkies shouting racial and gender slander at everyone associated with the new startreks. SW is absolutely one of the worst.

Finally, anyone who cares so much about something that matters so little is toxic. Not just the loud minority who go ballistic. But all of them.

 Lance845 wrote:
I didnt say it required super human work. I think it requires a particular set of skills and experience. Assuming you or any of the jack holes on the internet could simply walk in and do better is as laughable as me walking into boeing and taking over the design and construction of a new jet.

You have no idea what your doing.

And i didnt see any of the trekkies shouting racial and gender slander at everyone associated with the new startreks. SW is absolutely one of the worst.

Finally, anyone who cares so much about something that matters so little is toxic. Not just the loud minority who go ballistic. But all of them.

because the media didn't invent stories about it every day since the movie was dreamt up. For the remade movies, It's hard to shout racial & gender slurs at the one and only black women who's been part of the crew since the beginning. Try recasting kirk as an Asian female and see what happens.

those trekies are just great people, it's not like they're trying to cancel shows or anything, no wait, they are:
https://www.change.org/p/cbs-cancel-the-new-star-cbs-star-trek-series-now

Fun fact, you can be a star wars fan and a star trek fan, liking one doesn't mean you have to hate all other shows. I'd bet a great many are fans of both, so if there is a "toxic fandom" it would span all genres including superheros like the marvel movies. Judging by the marvels successes and diverse cast, it's easy to see that any "toxic fans" are a insignificant minority. It's only when shows are catered to 3rd wave feminists and created solely with that purpose in mind that anyone who doesn't like it get labeled as 'toxic' and those movies are above all legitimate criticisms. Create a good movie like blackpanther, and it draws in the crowds, even though the fandom is supposedly racist.

While there will always be a tiny fraction of bigots and a-holes in every fandom, no one ever describes an entire fandom as toxic until after they have released a terrible movie/game/book. "Toxic fandom" is just a deflection of blame away from one's disappointing creation.

You might have read the part where i said all fandom is toxic. Pointing out how other fandoms have been toxic doesnt make sw fandom any less toxic. They are all toxic and they are all toxic to exactly the extent in which they have been toxic. Its not a competition, and you dont become "less bad" because those guys over there were also bad that time.

Its not a "made up" story that sw fans made a "fan" version of the movie that cut out almost every scene that featured a not white or female character. It wasnt a "made up" report that a characters profile was filled with racial slurs and the acctresses social media was attacked similarly.

 Lance845 wrote:
I didnt say it required super human work. I think it requires a particular set of skills and experience. Assuming you or any of the jack holes on the internet could simply walk in and do better is as laughable as me walking into boeing and taking over the design and construction of a new jet.

You have no idea what your doing.

And i didnt see any of the trekkies shouting racial and gender slander at everyone associated with the new startreks. SW is absolutely one of the worst.

Finally, anyone who cares so much about something that matters so little is toxic. Not just the loud minority who go ballistic. But all of them.

really?

then you didnt look hard enough, see context is important, trek is a good place for these stupid social politics that are infesting the media these days, its the perfect place for it and i dont mind seeing it in Trek, as trek has always been that way, but star wars, nope, keep that crap out of my sci fantasy series, it doesnt belong, thankfully the star wars fans seem to be with me on this.

 Lance845 wrote:
You might have read the part where i said all fandom is toxic. Pointing out how other fandoms have been toxic doesnt make sw fandom any less toxic. They are all toxic and they are all toxic to exactly the extent in which they have been toxic. Its not a competition, and you dont become "less bad" because those guys over there were also bad that time.

Its not a "made up" story that sw fans made a "fan" version of the movie that cut out almost every scene that featured a not white or female character. It wasnt a "made up" report that a characters profile was filled with racial slurs and the acctresses social media was attacked similarly.

So you're saying you're a toxic fan.

The tran story was made up, it's weird how she never stated why she left. We just heard from one toxic person who made up why she left, and a lot of toxic people took it as fact. Where is KK hiding tran and not allowing her have a interview to discuss what happened? did KK kill tran? #freetran #wherestran #findtico

 Lance845 wrote:
I didnt say it required super human work. I think it requires a particular set of skills and experience. Assuming you or any of the jack holes on the internet could simply walk in and do better is as laughable as me walking into boeing and taking over the design and construction of a new jet.

You have no idea what your doing.

And i didnt see any of the trekkies shouting racial and gender slander at everyone associated with the new startreks. SW is absolutely one of the worst.

Finally, anyone who cares so much about something that matters so little is toxic. Not just the loud minority who go ballistic. But all of them.

I actually prefer people to be toxic about things that matter so little. They generally vent their toxin there, and can remain rational for things that DO matter.

You are right about the skills and experience part. But I come cheap compared to most studio executives; there'll be plenty of budget left to pay for an experienced assistant to handle such things. What I bring is long experience in not taking garbage from subordinates, especially from subordinates who are not performing their job up to spec.

Not to mention the ability to spot an incoherent and flawed plotline on the first read through...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Its not a "made up" story that sw fans made a "fan" version of the movie that cut out almost every scene that featured a not white or female character. It wasnt a "made up" report that a characters profile was filled with racial slurs and the acctresses social media was attacked similarly.

Ah, this little piece of trash.

That cut was posted on a facebook page with forty members. So unless you're going to claim Star Wars only has forty fans...

In the real world, we Star Wars fans also tend to like things like The Matrix (strong female character in the part of Trinity), Alien/s (strong female character in the part of Ellen Ripley), Wonder Woman (need I say more?) and Black Panther (which not only feature FOUR strong female characters, they're all black too!). And we objected when Major Kusinagi of Ghost in the Shell was played by a white actress.

Not to mention protesting Finn being written not as a strong character, but as a token comic relief black guy NO different from the role of Harry Block (played by Orlando Jones) in the 2001 movie Evolution.

But yeah, aside from that we're all such terrible racist sexist bigots...

Ah! These great gems of an argument again!

1) i am not a fan. I like some things. I dont give enough of a gak about any media to write letters or get emotional about it.

2) saying some people have been sexist and racist is not the same thing as saying everyone is sexist and racist. I didnt say everyone who is a fan of sw were those things. I said those people exist and they did these things in the name of their fandom. The only thing that could possibly associate you, personally, with those people is you and your actions. If your getting all defensive because people are pointing out that those people did gakky things then what exactly are you getting defensive about?

If you’re not a fan, why have you posted so often in so many TLJ threads?

You also haven't proven that fandom is toxic at all. You've proven that you are toxic to a large number of people based on a negative stereotype you apply to a class based on the actions of a few members within that class. Is there a word for someone who holds negative views about large groups of people and justifies those views by pointing to the possibly-exaggerated actions of a tiny subset?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you’re not a fan, why have you posted so often in so many TLJ threads?

You also haven't proven that fandom is toxic at all. You've proven that you are toxic to a large number of people based on a negative stereotype you apply to a class based on the actions of a few members within that class. Is there a word for someone who holds negative views about large groups of people and justifies those views by pointing to the possibly-exaggerated actions of a tiny subset?

Well first, this isn't a TLJ thread. This is a Solo thread. Second, I participate in any discussion I feel like i will have fun participating in. Nothing more. Nothing less. Third, i will be in less SW threads when there are less SW threads. But hey, if a new one is going to get started every fuckin week and I feel like I will have fun I will keep being there.

Its not about the subset or the class. I've said it before, fandom, fanatic, fan. All the same root word. To give so much of a gak that watching a movie you don't like makes you "ill" as I have seen people on this forum claim. If there is anything I am remotely close to being a member of a fandom for its Aliens and Predators. But I don't wish ill on Joss Wheddon or Paul W.S. Anderson for Alien Resurrection or the terrible job they did with AVP. Bad movies. The good movies still exist. I will go watch the good ones without slandering the fox executives who were responsible for those movies being made.

See the difference?

 Easy E wrote:

I enjoyed SOLO for what it was and really liked the lower stakes. Unlike TLJ or TFA, I felt it actually expanded the Star Wars universe a lot more.

Yeah, this is the strong point of the R1 and Solo compared to TFA and TLJ. Latter two were rehash of the rehash with almost no original themes or scenery because they could not take any risks, better repeat what has been shown to work so everybody is pleased at least a bit. TFA particularly is committee work at its worst. With R1 and Solo, they had more leeway.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
While there will always be a tiny fraction of bigots and a-holes in every fandom, no one ever describes an entire fandom as toxic until after they have released a terrible movie/game/book. "Toxic fandom" is just a deflection of blame away from one's disappointing creation.

No doubt there has been some toxic feedback from fans regarding this series, but for Kennedy and JJ to insult the fanbase back was quite shocking to me. I didn't agree with a lof of what they did, and felt some things were forced down my throat, and if I didn't like it, it meant I hated women or minorities, which is BS. I feel like in order to raise one group of their fans, they stepped on the throat of another, and that other, I hate to say it, is what made Star Wars as big as it is. They have a job because of that group. And this tells you something about pissing off your fan base. A lot of companies have made the mistake and done that very thing and had a hard time recovering.

Take for example NASCAR. NASCAR's roots are in the south. I've gone to some dozen races over the years. When NASCAR went from Winston to NEXTELL, and they expanded out of the south and into the north and west, they faced some issues with corporate sponsors over the Confederate flags showing up on TV. Now, 15 years ago, I would see rebel flags at just about every tailgate on race day. If you are not from the South, I imagine this is where you start thinking that the Confederate flag is a racist symbol and shouldn't be flown anywhere. However, in the South, white southerners DO NOT wave the flag to show they hate minorities. It's just a symbol of the South. Yes, its controversial, but its been that way for a long time. Southern Pride and all that. No white southerner shows up at a NASCAR event waving the rebel flag to show he hates black people. But I imagine people in other parts of the country probably don't get that.

However, pressure from corporate sponsors was so great that NASCAR actually asked their fans not to wave that flag at race events.

Now, before you say big deal, I want you to think about that for a moment. You have fans who are the primary reason the sport exists, being asked by the management of the sport to not display the symbol that they identify themselves with. Meanwhile, ticket prices are going up, the races are moving out of smaller tracks in the south and moving to other parts of the country. Do you think there is going to be some resentment? Of course there is.

And NASCAR today is having huge issues with filling the stands. Just watch a race on TV. TV revenue is still pretty good, but actual attendance is way down. Fans not only have not committed to going to races in the west and north, but more importantly they have dropped off in the south too. And there are several reasons no doubt (rule changes, drivers, cost), but smacking the identity of your own hardcore fans is certainly one of them. NASCAR was a southern sport and had some of the most loyal fans of all North American sports, and NASCAR seemed to forget that, or gamble they could move on without them. Turns out that was a big mistake.

So in the case of Kennedy and JJ, by alienating hardcore Star Wars fans is a terrible idea too. Its not just about ticket sales, but merchandise as well. Are casual fans (besides kids) buying the action figures? Or are the hardcore fans? If you think you can just sub one group for another and keep on trucking you'll be paying for it in the long run. There is nothing wrong with being more inclusive, but know your audience. And certainly make sure you understand them. And don't alienate them.

And I read that in the near future there will be more female super heros in the MCU than male ones. I cringed when I heard that. I know someone will shout 'sexist' here, but are women lining up in droves to see these movies and buy the figures? No. But it just seems forced that this shift is happening. Now I know up till this point the MCU has been really male driven, as it should be, as all these previous characters started out as male. Certainly we can use more female characters of all types, not just the ones that are strong, never make mistakes, and never lose a fight, but I am not sure you are going to get the same number of ticket buyers for some of these other movies in the long run. It just seems that in order to give in to PC and be more inclusive, you have to hold down one group to raise another, and existing fans aren't oblivious to this. They are going to pick up on it when it happens and that's when the groaning starts. I really hope the MCU doesn't piss off fans, because I love it. But if it starts getting predictable in that the Avengers of 2025 will be one where each member is of a different race and gender, transgender, and the strongest is a female minority for example while the weakest is a comical white male for the sake of being more PC, while all the bad guys are white males, you will satisfy one group and annoy another. Whether this is right or not doesn't matter. The fan base will become toxic.

And I don't think the fact that you are introducing different genders or races is the real problem, its the manner of which it is done. And I think this is where Star Wars blew it, and why no one went to see Solo.

Controversial post on my part I know its going to get some slack, but I stand by it.

Unfortunately Marvel/ superhero movies is where you're Nascar example falls flat.

Black panther is one of the most succesfull marvel movies to date. That audience wants diversity. Was/is it such a stretch to believe the star wars crowd wants something similiar?

YMMV but the biggest problem my sister used to have with marvel merch was the lack of female avengers merch. She wanted black widow merch , and they didn't sell it.

 Earth127 wrote:
Unfortunately Marvel/ superhero movies is where you're Nascar example falls flat.

Black panther is one of the most succesfull marvel movies to date. That audience wants diversity. Was/is it such a stretch to believe the star wars crowd wants something similiar?

YMMV but the biggest problem my sister used to have with marvel merch was the lack of female avengers merch. She wanted black widow merch , and they didn't sell it.

You aren't following my examples. I am not saying you cannot have diversity. I am saying if you alienate your core fans, even for the sake of diversity, you suffer the same problems as NASCAR and Star Wars.

Of course, time will tell once the MCU goes down that PC road and how well they do it.

 Earth127 wrote:
Unfortunately Marvel/ superhero movies is where you're Nascar example falls flat.

Black panther is one of the most succesfull marvel movies to date. That audience wants diversity. Was/is it such a stretch to believe the star wars crowd wants something similiar?

YMMV but the biggest problem my sister used to have with marvel merch was the lack of female avengers merch. She wanted black widow merch , and they didn't sell it.

Total Hogswash. people are not so vapid and shallow that they would only go a see a movie because they are "represented" in it, the audience does not care about diversity, they care about good movies, black panther was a good movie first and a "black" movie last, it was also not even ground breaking, Spawn and Blade beat them to it by a long margin and Blade 2 is a much better film by comparison.

people do not give two gaks about the colour of the lead, hollywood pretends to care, the Social justice movement pretends to care and so do the 3rd wave fems, thankfully Fem wars failed and now they can get politics out of Star Wars and put it in Star Trek where it belongs.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Unfortunately Marvel/ superhero movies is where you're Nascar example falls flat.

Black panther is one of the most succesfull marvel movies to date. That audience wants diversity. Was/is it such a stretch to believe the star wars crowd wants something similiar?

YMMV but the biggest problem my sister used to have with marvel merch was the lack of female avengers merch. She wanted black widow merch , and they didn't sell it.

You aren't following my examples. I am not saying you cannot have diversity. I am saying if you alienate your core fans, even for the sake of diversity, you suffer the same problems as NASCAR and Star Wars.

Of course, time will tell once the MCU goes down that PC road and how well they do it.

it wont go down that route, Star Wars has shown clearly that SJW politics in movies doesnt sell, they wont take the risk with the Marvel golden goose... well not again at any rate, the comics were ruined by the SJW's with a few exceptions like Mile Morales (who is quite a good character), they wont make the same mistake twice.

 Formosa wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Unfortunately Marvel/ superhero movies is where you're Nascar example falls flat.

Black panther is one of the most succesfull marvel movies to date. That audience wants diversity. Was/is it such a stretch to believe the star wars crowd wants something similiar?

YMMV but the biggest problem my sister used to have with marvel merch was the lack of female avengers merch. She wanted black widow merch , and they didn't sell it.

Total Hogswash. people are not so vapid and shallow that they would only go a see a movie because they are "represented" in it, the audience does not care about diversity, they care about good movies, black panther was a good movie first and a "black" movie last, it was also not even ground breaking, Spawn and Blade beat them to it by a long margin and Blade 2 is a much better film by comparison.

people do not give two gaks about the colour of the lead, hollywood pretends to care, the Social justice movement pretends to care and so do the 3rd wave fems, thankfully Fem wars failed and now they can get politics out of Star Wars and put it in Star Trek where it belongs.

Uhh, no. They might not care as much as Hollywood and critics, but yes, they do care. I think it might be more of a tribal thing really, but so long as there is a justifiable reason for a character, race and all, I am fine with it. Where I have a problem is making a character who was historically one race and gender into another for PC reasons. Not that these actors or actresses aren't good or shouldn't be cast to play a part, I just think that's an example of forcing diversity. Just make a new character. If we're supposed to be color blind, then surely we could have made the lead of Black Panther a white female... but that would end up being white-washing, which is a big no-no. But if you have a minority cast to play what was a white character, its diversity. And there lies part of the problem.

Don't get me wrong, you're movie has to be good no matter what. But not alienating part of your audience is a blade that cuts a great many ways.

But I will say people do care about care representation and seeing certain versions of themselves on screen.

What I do think they'll take away is divisive doesn't seem to work. But that's for a TLJ topic.

 Earth127 wrote:

But I will say people do care about care representation and seeing certain versions of themselves on screen.

I agree, which is why all the women super heroes appearing in the MCU are basically the same person. Black Widow, the WASP, Okoye. . . all the same really. Too soon for women heros to be comedic or have flaws (well, except for being stubborn and too strong). Eventually they will branch out and come up with some comedic characters, or ones that have issues, but for now they are just following a template.

And even if we get to a point where we have a female hero go through a story arc where she has something like PSTD like in Iron Man 3, and is saved at the end by a guy (as Tony was saved by Pepper), eyes will roll that another female in a movie having to be rescued by a male. So it will be a long time before Marvel goes down that road.

The whole thing is so predictable and amusing really.

 Earth127 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, you're movie has to be good no matter what. But not alienating part of your audience is a blade that cuts a great many ways.

But I will say people do care about care representation and seeing certain versions of themselves on screen.

What I do think they'll take away is divisive doesn't seem to work. But that's for a TLJ topic.

hmmm nope, I have never seen a half welsh half singaporian on screen and guess what, still love my Marvel films, I watch a lot of You tube videos too and one of my favourites (world class bull !"£$ers) is almost universally black as hosts, funny bunch, and they constantly push back at that assumption and rip on it.

The problem with these last few films I think you have hit the nail on the head, they HAVE alienated a part of their audience, the wrong part, KK and Co tried to push away the core to appeal to the wrong people, it has backfired and sadly that mean Episode 9 may end up failing, the public backlash that we were told is just "internet sexist trolls" is real and it turns out it wasnt trolls.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:

But I will say people do care about care representation and seeing certain versions of themselves on screen.

I agree, which is why all the women super heroes appearing in the MCU are basically the same person. Black Widow, the WASP, Okoye. . . all the same really. Too soon for women heros to be comedic or have flaws (well, except for being stubborn and too strong). Eventually they will branch out and come up with some comedic characters, or ones that have issues, but for now they are just following a template.

And even if we get to a point where we have a female hero go through a story arc where she has something like PSTD like in Iron Man 3, and is saved at the end by a guy (as Tony was saved by Pepper), eyes will roll that another female in a movie having to be rescued by a male. So it will be a long time before Marvel goes down that road.

The whole thing is so predictable and amusing really.

I don't think scarlett witch and black widdow are the same person. I don't think Shuri is the same. I don't think any of them are like Wasp (who had some real big anger issues) and I doubt any of them will be like Capt Marvel. And none of them had the drinking and running that Valkyrie did.

Problem is up untill a year or 2 ago. Female was considered as suffiecient characterisation.

 Lance845 wrote:

I don't think scarlett witch and black widdow are the same person. I don't think Shuri is the same. I don't think any of them are like Wasp (who had some real big anger issues) and I doubt any of them will be like Capt Marvel.

Of all of those, Shuri is probably the most unique. Okay Mantis too I guess she is a hero now as well. But the others just seem like clichés of one another. Their demeanor, attitudes, never really get beat up, etc, they are all safe templates. I think they also cater to what they think society wants to see too, which I think makes their stories boring and predictable. Maybe that will change with Captain Marvel, but I honestly think she'll just be another cut from that template.

I hope I am wrong, but then, if I say it will be awesome if Captain Marvel gets nailed in the face by Thanos like he nailed Tony, does that say something dark about violence against women? It feels like it. I think these things Marvel has to tip-toe around too. Which also means I don't feel the stakes are as great with them because you seem to be limited as to what you can do to them because society isn't really ready for some of it. So they are kind of playing it safe for now.

Marvel has no real stakes for any main characters.

I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.