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I can see what you are saying and to an extent I agree. The villians should be doing horrible stuff to everyone equally. To be fair, Thanos threw Gamora off a cliff.

I was agreeing with some points earlier, but now things have gone so completely off base that, well, yeah... I'm not even in the same solar system anymore.

Although, I'd have to say, there is the whole thing of the fact that the entire Dr Strange movie is almost a remake of Iron Man 1.

Anyhow, how about them space wars?

 KTG17 wrote:
I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.

Death of superman has Wonder Woman have the ever living crap beat out of her by doomsday, I know it’s not the same.

Also black widow has had the snot beaten out of her several times, ok not to the extent that captain America and iron man had at the end of civil war, so you may have a point.

Is it just a case of we don’t see the same effects? Cuts, bruises etc. ?

 KTG17 wrote:
I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.

Laura was brutally beaten in 'Logan', including being speared in very graphic fashion...

 KTG17 wrote:
I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.

Have you seen Atomic Blonde? Seriously she gets the crap beaten out of her and does the same to her opponents. It is brutal but brilliant.

 Formosa wrote:


it wont go down that route, Star Wars has shown clearly that SJW politics in movies doesnt sell

Not particularly. They've been happy to let bigoted idiots cast themselves as villains in proclaiming that a bad story is the fault of SJ politics, and spin the narrative so that any negative response is because of said idiot fans, but they didn't have any trouble selling the film and racking up money.
Despite terrible writing/pacing that had everything to do with Rian Johnson as writer/director and not much else.

Solo got hit with a combination of pre-release media coverage yammering on about how 'troubled' the film was, how bad the lead supposedly was, directors, etc, and viewers got really tired of SW controversies so just didn't bother to show up. None of it had much to do with any sort of politics, except possibility of not wanting to associate themselves with Star Wars, because those fans made every effort to display themselves are crazy, intolerable nutjobs. And the Disney folks were more than happy to let them take the blame.

 Lance845 wrote:
Ah! These great gems of an argument again!

1) i am not a fan. I like some things. I dont give enough of a gak about any media to write letters or get emotional about it.

2) saying some people have been sexist and racist is not the same thing as saying everyone is sexist and racist. I didnt say everyone who is a fan of sw were those things. I said those people exist and they did these things in the name of their fandom. The only thing that could possibly associate you, personally, with those people is you and your actions. If your getting all defensive because people are pointing out that those people did gakky things then what exactly are you getting defensive about?

Because every time this gets trotted out it's to imply that anyone who doesn't love TLJ is a racist sexist bigot because there's no other possible justification for not loving TLJ.

This despite hundreds of hours of videos and millions of words of text, 99.9% of which says NOTHING about Rey, Captain Phasma, and Admiral Holdo being women or Finn being black as bad things.

In short, just bringing it up yourself is saying that not liking TLJ is the trait of a racist, sexist bigot and I VERY MUCH TAKE OFFENSE AT THAT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


it wont go down that route, Star Wars has shown clearly that SJW politics in movies doesnt sell

Not particularly. They've been happy to let bigoted idiots cast themselves as villains in proclaiming that a bad story is the fault of SJ politics, and spin the narrative so that any negative response is because of said idiot fans, but they didn't have any trouble selling the film and racking up money.
Despite terrible writing/pacing that had everything to do with Rian Johnson as writer/director and not much else.

Solo got hit with a combination of pre-release media coverage yammering on about how 'troubled' the film was, how bad the lead supposedly was, directors, etc, and viewers got really tired of SW controversies so just didn't bother to show up. None of it had much to do with any sort of politics, except possibility of not wanting to associate themselves with Star Wars, because those fans made every effort to display themselves are crazy, intolerable nutjobs. And the Disney folks were more than happy to let them take the blame.

I have the feeling that Episode IX will tell the tale once and for all.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ah! These great gems of an argument again!

1) i am not a fan. I like some things. I dont give enough of a gak about any media to write letters or get emotional about it.

2) saying some people have been sexist and racist is not the same thing as saying everyone is sexist and racist. I didnt say everyone who is a fan of sw were those things. I said those people exist and they did these things in the name of their fandom. The only thing that could possibly associate you, personally, with those people is you and your actions. If your getting all defensive because people are pointing out that those people did gakky things then what exactly are you getting defensive about?

Because every time this gets trotted out it's to imply that anyone who doesn't love TLJ is a racist sexist bigot because there's no other possible justification for not loving TLJ.

This despite hundreds of hours of videos and millions of words of text, 99.9% of which says NOTHING about Rey, Captain Phasma, and Admiral Holdo being women or Finn being black as bad things.

In short, just bringing it up yourself is saying that not liking TLJ is the trait of a racist, sexist bigot and I VERY MUCH TAKE OFFENSE AT THAT.

This makes no sense. He's clearly making a statement one way and not the other. There's no 'every time' at work here, and there's no reason to take offense unless he's hitting too close to home.


FWIW, I finally rewatched TLJ the other night and I like it more than ever. Some of the issues I had with it the first time didn't seem as pronounced as I thought. Canto Bight didn't drag like I remembered, for example. And (back on topic) the rewatch also made Solo look worse to me. It underlined how little Solo had to offer beyond paint-by-numbers storytelling and direction, and a heaping helping of fan service. But clearly that formula is more satisfying for some fans.

Furiosa gets the everloving crap beat out of her in Fury Road. Lots of females get beat up when they are antagonists, too. Though in that role we are not supposed to feel sympathy for them, which makes it different.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ah! These great gems of an argument again!

1) i am not a fan. I like some things. I dont give enough of a gak about any media to write letters or get emotional about it.

2) saying some people have been sexist and racist is not the same thing as saying everyone is sexist and racist. I didnt say everyone who is a fan of sw were those things. I said those people exist and they did these things in the name of their fandom. The only thing that could possibly associate you, personally, with those people is you and your actions. If your getting all defensive because people are pointing out that those people did gakky things then what exactly are you getting defensive about?

Because every time this gets trotted out it's to imply that anyone who doesn't love TLJ is a racist sexist bigot because there's no other possible justification for not loving TLJ.

This despite hundreds of hours of videos and millions of words of text, 99.9% of which says NOTHING about Rey, Captain Phasma, and Admiral Holdo being women or Finn being black as bad things.

In short, just bringing it up yourself is saying that not liking TLJ is the trait of a racist, sexist bigot and I VERY MUCH TAKE OFFENSE AT THAT.

What a complete load of gak.

I am not in control of how you interpret the meaning behind the words i write. I am only in control of what i actually write. If you want to take a statement about some indivuals and take it to IMPLY that i am talking about all individuals then thats on you. But you lost all credibility to any argument on the subject when you refuse to function based on the factual statement as opposed to your wrong asumptions about the further meaning of the statement. This makes me think that your most likely upset about nothing. Since clearly there is evidence that you get offended by things that were not said and dont exist.

This is how crazy people view the world. Enjoy the hell you have made for yourself.

Gorgon, I genuinely don't understand your criticism of Solo. It seems like you are saying it's a bad thing that the heroes were likeable and effective, as opposed to TLJ where the heroes are frustrated and miserable and they consistently fail/are underminded by ancillary characters seemingly invented just to serve as obstacles for them. Are you saying the former is too conventional (and therefore boring) whereas the latter is unexpeced/subverted and therefore creative?

What I feel Solo got right, by Mad Doc Grotsnik, Aged 38 and 2 months.

1. It showed a range of moralities in the Star Wars Underworld. Not everyone is treacherous. Not everyone is completely amoral. Some have little worry shafting person A, but show serious loyalty to persons B and C.

2. Yet another tantalising glimpse of life under the Imperial Heel. We saw this first in Rogue One, and it’s kind of continued here. This all helps flesh out the background in a really quite visceral way (I’m particularly impressed we don’t know who Han’s unit was actually fighting!)

3. More new planets. One of my main bugbears with the Prequel trilogy is the reuse of Tattooine. Galaxy is a honking big place. Show us that.

4. Actual moral quandaries for our would-be hero. Sure it’s not exactly ‘kill the child, save the mother vs kill the mother save the child’, but it’s still a way to show growth and development.

5. The Imperial Recruitment. I’ve no military experience, and I’m not from a military family. But the just ‘walk up, sign up’ thing helped illustrate how The Empire recruits. Also, definite shades of a similar scene in Starship Troopers I felt

6. It helped re-canonise stuff, such as Wookiees being used as slave labour.

7. Oh, that’s why restraining bolts exist! Possibly the most contentious scene, but I loved it. I also feel it helps solidify the place of most Droids in the Galaxy as a slave labour force. This is easy to lose sight of, given how well the main Droids are treated in the wider canon.

Oh, yeah, restraining bolts have pretty much always been straightjackets for droids. Or slave-collars, if you will. The Jawas used them on 3PO and R2 in ep4 to prevent them running away. It was only AFTER Luke removed R2s one that the little rubbish bin COULD wander off to complete its "mission".

Droids do most of the drudge work in the SW universe. Slave organics do the other stuff that droids are too valuable to lose doing.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Furiosa gets the everloving crap beat out of her in Fury Road. Lots of females get beat up when they are antagonists, too. Though in that role we are not supposed to feel sympathy for them, which makes it different.

And there have been movies where women got raped. I am not talking about films in a general sense. I mean the superhero genre geared for all ages. Even in an era of feminism and equality, there has been structure in place to shield female super heros from the kind of violence the men go through. They certainly inflict it, but they don't really receive it. Its one thing to watch two guys beat each other into a bloody mess because that is far more acceptable in our society, but to have a man do it to a women on film with kids watching? That probably hits a nerve.

We may get there at some point who knows, and I worry that sends a terrible message. If you front a man like a man... well, can't be shocked if you are treated like one.

 gorgon wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ah! These great gems of an argument again!

1) i am not a fan. I like some things. I dont give enough of a gak about any media to write letters or get emotional about it.

2) saying some people have been sexist and racist is not the same thing as saying everyone is sexist and racist. I didnt say everyone who is a fan of sw were those things. I said those people exist and they did these things in the name of their fandom. The only thing that could possibly associate you, personally, with those people is you and your actions. If your getting all defensive because people are pointing out that those people did gakky things then what exactly are you getting defensive about?

Because every time this gets trotted out it's to imply that anyone who doesn't love TLJ is a racist sexist bigot because there's no other possible justification for not loving TLJ.

This despite hundreds of hours of videos and millions of words of text, 99.9% of which says NOTHING about Rey, Captain Phasma, and Admiral Holdo being women or Finn being black as bad things.

In short, just bringing it up yourself is saying that not liking TLJ is the trait of a racist, sexist bigot and I VERY MUCH TAKE OFFENSE AT THAT.

This makes no sense. He's clearly making a statement one way and not the other. There's no 'every time' at work here, and there's no reason to take offense unless he's hitting too close to home.


FWIW, I finally rewatched TLJ the other night and I like it more than ever. Some of the issues I had with it the first time didn't seem as pronounced as I thought. Canto Bight didn't drag like I remembered, for example. And (back on topic) the rewatch also made Solo look worse to me. It underlined how little Solo had to offer beyond paint-by-numbers storytelling and direction, and a heaping helping of fan service. But clearly that formula is more satisfying for some fans.

You watched it what three times? Clearly many (me for example) did not watch it at all.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.

Have you seen Atomic Blonde? Seriously she gets the crap beaten out of her and does the same to her opponents. It is brutal but brilliant.

Ehhh - I'm not so sure it's brilliant. Watching people take hits from someone twice their size and keep fighting is just dumb. Not saying this stuff doesn't happen with male characters to - just saying it is not brilliant in ether case. I agree though - people have no problem watching girls get beat up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On to Solo.

I enjoyed this film. Not quite as much as R1 but it was still pretty good. The guy that played Solo did a good job - don't understand the negative attention he is getting. The films poor showing had nothing to do with his performance IMO.

Loved the Chewy - Solo meeting. Starts dark - then ends with some comic relief (this is how you should use comedy in starwars) Wish they spent a little more time developing Solo during his time in the Imperial Navy. In any case - I think we all know the reason this movie did poorly at the box office. TLJ caused that. Though my opening night showing was sold out.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
I am saying we can all watch a male hero flat out get the crap beat out of him, but can we watch a women hero get the crap beat out of her? I am not so sure. We haven't seen it yet. So that is what I mean. We always know the violence will only go to a certain point.

Have you seen Atomic Blonde? Seriously she gets the crap beaten out of her and does the same to her opponents. It is brutal but brilliant.

Ehhh - I'm not so sure it's brilliant. Watching people take hits from someone twice their size and keep fighting is just dumb. Not saying this stuff doesn't happen with male characters to - just saying it is not brilliant in ether case. I agree though - people have no problem watching girls get beat up.

I really meant the whole film was brilliant but I understand what you mean about the size - although CT is quite a big woman. Male characters are much much worse eg although I found John Wyck 1 and 2 amusing fun it was so over the top it made video games look realistic.

I did like that in Atomic Blonde both the fighters ran out of energy and could hardly hit each other after a relatively short period which was quire realistic

Girls kicking ass and having their ass kicked is fairly normal these days - watch any action film/tv show with a female lead.

FWIW, I finally rewatched TLJ the other night and I like it more than ever.

No way going to sit through that that piss poor gak again - the tedium of the space chase alone would send me to sleep.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think we all know the reason this movie did poorly at the box office. TLJ caused that. Though my opening night showing was sold out.

"We" all know it, but my fear is that Disney doesn't see it this way. Looking only at numbers, TLJ did "well" and Solo lost money. As a company, Disney is likely to continue doing things like TLJ and full stop on project like Solo, which is a shame

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think we all know the reason this movie did poorly at the box office. TLJ caused that. Though my opening night showing was sold out.

"We" all know it, but my fear is that Disney doesn't see it this way. Looking only at numbers, TLJ did "well" and Solo lost money. As a company, Disney is likely to continue doing things like TLJ and full stop on project like Solo, which is a shame

-

:(. Yeah. I fully agree. Disney seems to be very disconnected with it's fan base. When Episode lX comes out - does poorly even after a huge add campaign - I think they might start to get the message. Though part of me really doubts lX will do as poorly as Solo. It's just the nature of being the final episode - I think a lot of people who hated TLJ will still see it.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think we all know the reason this movie did poorly at the box office. TLJ caused that. Though my opening night showing was sold out.

"We" all know it, but my fear is that Disney doesn't see it this way. Looking only at numbers, TLJ did "well" and Solo lost money. As a company, Disney is likely to continue doing things like TLJ and full stop on project like Solo, which is a shame

-

I still say they will also look at DVD /download sales. Its still an important market? I certainly won't be buying a LTJ DVD.

As an avid Anime watcher - I've been watching girls get beat up since I was very young!

 Manchu wrote:
Gorgon, I genuinely don't understand your criticism of Solo. It seems like you are saying it's a bad thing that the heroes were likeable and effective, as opposed to TLJ where the heroes are frustrated and miserable and they consistently fail/are underminded by ancillary characters seemingly invented just to serve as obstacles for them. Are you saying the former is too conventional (and therefore boring) whereas the latter is unexpeced/subverted and therefore creative?

Setting aside your highly opinionated characterizations of the heroes, it's not that Solo is conventional and therefore boring. Solo is boring to me because it's a very ordinary movie that only ever strives to be adequate and check boxes. It seems more interested in displaying events and explaining details than in being a thoughtful Han Solo character study. It's a parade of 'How Han Got/Did/Met X'. The end result for me is a forgettable film, like many of the Marvel movies. There are Marvel films like Black Panther and Winter Soldier that manage to be conventional AND interesting.

Maybe Solo tastes good to those folks craving SW comfort food and fully engaged in SW minutae. Solo was certainly about fan service, but in a much narrower way than TFA was. Comfort food is a legit thing, but there's also such a thing as interesting comfort food, and in this case I feel like Solo drifted into pandering territory. While the end cameo is brief, it's very telling about the mindset behind the film. The only play that would have been more fan-servicey is Boba Fett. But I guess having a lightsaber fire up checked that extra box on the 'must have' list?

Regarding Disney and the fanbase, I think what TLJ and Solo revealed is that it's going to be very hard to please everyone when you have a fanbase that large and heterogeneous. In each case, there were audience segments who weren't buying what the film was selling. This 'TLJ hangover' myth is a ridiculous misread of the box office results. Occam's Razor applies here -- general audiences weren't interested in Solo because they weren't interested in a 'how Han Solo got his X' film.

 gorgon wrote:

This 'TLJ hangover' myth is a ridiculous misread of the box office results. Occam's Razor applies here -- general audiences weren't interested in Solo because they weren't interested in a 'how Han Solo got his X' film.

Then you haven't been following the revolt/boycott going on regarding Kennedy and JJ online. That did have an effect. Han might be THE most popular character after Darth Vader, and this movie should have gotten a bigger turnout than it got. The fact that it didn't tells me that the backlash against JJ, Rian, and Kennedy is alive and well.

 gorgon wrote:

Regarding Disney and the fanbase, I think what TLJ and Solo revealed is that it's going to be very hard to please everyone when you have a fanbase that large and heterogeneous. In each case, there were audience segments who weren't buying what the film was selling. This 'TLJ hangover' myth is a ridiculous misread of the box office results. Occam's Razor applies here -- general audiences weren't interested in Solo because they weren't interested in a 'how Han Solo got his X' film.

I agree. I went to see solo because I have Movie Pass. A service that lets me see 1 movie every day for 10.00 a month. It cost me nothing to see solo. I will literally go watch anything at this point. I enjoyed Solo, but all the way up to Solos releases I was saying "What is the point of this movie? It's not going to add anything to the universe. It's just going to be "How Han got X."" And it mostly was. General Audiences didn't know it was coming because it didn't get promoted well. It came right off the back of Infinity War and right before Deadpool.

Not being promoted and being released in the middle of 2 other major releases with no breathing room coupled with it's inflated budget has significantly more to do with how poorly Solo did then any TLJ back lash.

You should all keep in mind that the vast majority of the movie going populace has no idea who Kathleen Kennedy is, no idea what she said about who, no idea who got bullied or not, and no idea what kind of things were being said about TLJ online. Most people don't care. They just go watch movies for fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

This 'TLJ hangover' myth is a ridiculous misread of the box office results. Occam's Razor applies here -- general audiences weren't interested in Solo because they weren't interested in a 'how Han Solo got his X' film.

Then you haven't been following the revolt/boycott going on regarding Kennedy and JJ online. That did have an effect. Han might be THE most popular character after Darth Vader, and this movie should have gotten a bigger turnout than it got. The fact that it didn't tells me that the backlash against JJ, Rian, and Kennedy is alive and well.

See above. The "backlash" is a drop in the bucket. This right here is another toxic element of fandom. Assuming you're more valuable then you are. Each person in that boycott is worth exactly 1 ticket. Are there over a million of you boycotting? How many of you "boycotting" are teenagers who don't even pay for the toilet paper to wipe their own ass? If they are not paying for the ticket guess what value they have?

You should all keep in mind that the vast majority of the movie going populace has no idea who Kathleen Kennedy is, no idea what she said about who, no idea who got bullied or not, and no idea what kind of things were being said about TLJ online. Most people don't care. They just go watch movies for fun.

Exactly right - I have no real idea who she is - I blame the Director as its his film.

I go to have fun at the movies - I had zero fun watching the gakfest that was TLJ.

 Lance845 wrote:
See above. The "backlash" is a drop in the bucket. This right here is another toxic element of fandom. Assuming you're more valuable then you are. Each person in that boycott is worth exactly 1 ticket. Are there over a million of you boycotting? How many of you "boycotting" are teenagers who don't even pay for the toilet paper to wipe their own ass? If they are not paying for the ticket guess what value they have?

Wait, so you are trying to convince me this very movie that did terrible at the box office, in an environment where a lot of people are pissed off at Disney over Star Wars, doesn't have enough people in the boycott to make a difference? Let me check those ticket sale numbers again...

All I have to vote with is my "1 ticket". But you get enough people annoyed and they aren't going to buy those one tickets. Even if they don't know anything about the 'boycott', they are obviously not as excited about Star Wars as they were in recent years. Star Wars has quite a large fan base made up of different age groups ranging from loving the current Star Wars movies to hating them. The ticket sales is the definitive stat to gauge the pulse of the fan base. Not enough people went to see this movie, that's the fact. We can speculate as to why all day but to say that pissed off fans are not the reason then you are in your own fantasy world.

 KTG17 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

This 'TLJ hangover' myth is a ridiculous misread of the box office results. Occam's Razor applies here -- general audiences weren't interested in Solo because they weren't interested in a 'how Han Solo got his X' film.

Then you haven't been following the revolt/boycott going on regarding Kennedy and JJ online. That did have an effect. Han might be THE most popular character after Darth Vader, and this movie should have gotten a bigger turnout than it got. The fact that it didn't tells me that the backlash against JJ, Rian, and Kennedy is alive and well.

Sure the boycott was a thing, but I think you give them way to much credit here. the movie bombed world wide, star wars was never that big a deal in china and as they never had the original trilogy released there, so solo means nothing to them. Sure the boycott could have effected American sales, but I doubt the call was heard anywhere else.

It wasn't just the fans calling for a boycott though, the conservatives boycotted it because they said lando was pan. You can see their point though, read the definition for pansexual, then ask why it's in a kids movie. in short being pan means lando is also attracted to children as well as robots. I can't see that a big selling point outside the US.

With so many other great movies out, there was really no need to see solo as we basically knew everything that was going to happen and they're still trying to shoehorn in parsecs making any sort of sense. I ran a marathon in 30 steps, I crossed the line to start, then turned around and crossed it again to finish. SO your ships not fast, you just took a shortcut.

As for 9, it can wait til Netflix if ever. TLJ did nothing to build up to the conclusion so there's really no desire to see it end. It's like building a house of cards in 7, then they all fall down in 8, so does anyone want to start over again to rebuild the house for 9? we'll see, but I doubt it.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
See above. The "backlash" is a drop in the bucket. This right here is another toxic element of fandom. Assuming you're more valuable then you are. Each person in that boycott is worth exactly 1 ticket. Are there over a million of you boycotting? How many of you "boycotting" are teenagers who don't even pay for the toilet paper to wipe their own ass? If they are not paying for the ticket guess what value they have?

Wait, so you are trying to convince me this very movie that did terrible at the box office, in an environment where a lot of people are pissed off at Disney over Star Wars, doesn't have enough people in the boycott to make a difference? Let me check those ticket sale numbers again...

All I have to vote with is my "1 ticket". But you get enough people annoyed and they aren't going to buy those one tickets. Even if they don't know anything about the 'boycott', they are obviously not as excited about Star Wars as they were in recent years. Star Wars has quite a large fan base made up of different age groups ranging from loving the current Star Wars movies to hating them. The ticket sales is the definitive stat to gauge the pulse of the fan base. Not enough people went to see this movie, that's the fact. We can speculate as to why all day but to say that pissed off fans are not the reason then you are in your own fantasy world.

It's all relative. So far, 'Solo' has grossed about same than each of the Paramounts' new Trek series, which were considered successful films by most standards (even though actual quality may vary). Big difference is that 'Solo' cost about 2 times as much to film than those new ST films.

IMO, what we are seeing is result of the scifi glut. Backlash against Phantom Menace was enormous (far bigger than anything against TFA or TLJ), yet that didn't stop next two films being financial successes as well. Difference was that Disney released FOUR Star Wars movies in same time Lucasfilm released one.

Apparantly SW can't capture the Marvel magic.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You should all keep in mind that the vast majority of the movie going populace has no idea who Kathleen Kennedy is, no idea what she said about who, no idea who got bullied or not, and no idea what kind of things were being said about TLJ online. Most people don't care. They just go watch movies for fun.

Exactly right - I have no real idea who she is - I blame the Director as its his film.

I go to have fun at the movies - I had zero fun watching the gakfest that was TLJ.

You're allowed to dislike TLJ, just like you're allowed to like Thor 2.

When things get unhinged is when people start cooking up conspiracy theories and odd narratives to explain differences of opinion and position their own opinion in a certain way. This is, I suppose, related to human beings increasingly losing the ability to have regular conversations with give-and-take. Instead, we fire our opinions at one another like weapons, attempting to defeat 'opponents' and win...I dunno, something or other.

Personally, I don't think the analysis of these SW movies needs to be very complicated. Some people didn't like TLJ because there were divisive elements in it. I liked TLJ, but I can understand that. Similarly, audiences didn't show up for Solo because they were lukewarm about the concept, didn't see it as 'important', and were uninterested in a Han Solo movie that doesn't star Harrison Ford. These are also understandable points. No '-isms' of any kind are required. (Although that also doesn't mean that those individuals don't exist.)