Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You aren't reading what I'm writing.

The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.

However GW have made abundantly clear that "the end of" and "during" a phase in GAME TERMS are different things, one following the other.

You keep using a dictionary definition to try and prove your point which is not only wrong (since dictionary definitions are useless when discussing rules) but is also explicitly against the rules of this forum.

Let me make it as clear as I can;

'During' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase, before the end of phase.

'End of phase' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase that comes after the during.

You can't use Cloud of Flies on reinforcements because it explicitly states it must be used DURING the movement phase and if you are reinforcing you are in the END OF movement phase. During here does not refer to the dictionary definition as you seem to believe, it refers to a specific point in the phase as above.

Does that help?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You aren't reading what I'm writing.

The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.

However GW have made abundantly clear that "the end of" and "during" a phase in GAME TERMS are different things, one following the other.

You keep using a dictionary definition to try and prove your point which is not only wrong (since dictionary definitions are useless when discussing rules) but is also explicitly against the rules of this forum.

Let me make it as clear as I can;

'During' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase, before the end of phase.

'End of phase' in terms of GW rules lingo = a time within a phase that comes after the during.

You can't use Cloud of Flies on reinforcements because it explicitly states it must be used DURING the movement phase and if you are reinforcing you are in the END OF movement phase. During here does not refer to the dictionary definition as you seem to believe, it refers to a specific point in the phase as above.

Does that help?

No, I'm actually really confused on your stance and how you interpret the rules since you previously said:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

Have you changed your position in the last few posts?

JakeSiren wrote:
snip

Jake, you aren't making this easy.

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.

My position has been the same throughout this entire thread.

Read any of my previous posts (including the one you quoted above) for illumination as to where my stance is.

I can't say it any clearer than above, which part exactly are you struggling to understand?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
snip

Jake, you aren't making this easy.

No, you are wrong in your assumption of my position. I did not say anywhere that the end of was not during the phase.

The end of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase.

My position has been the same throughout this entire thread.

Read any of my previous posts (including the one you quoted above) for illumination as to where my stance is.

I can't say it any clearer than above, which part exactly are you struggling to understand?

I'm struggling to understand what appears to be a logical inconsistency.

Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?

What does everybody think about the notion that the sequencing rules make you resovle the actions one at a time so they are no longer happening together.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind it needs an faq the words are too vague and mean to many diffrent things, i dont beleave there is any proof that anyone can bring that dosnt invole there own take on what the words mean

Been watching this thread. Feels like we're devolving into semantic discussions about whether or not things happen at the same time. Weighing in with a perspective that might help.

The end of the phase is not the same as leaving the phase. The game is divided into distinct phases, if something can occur during a phase that includes the end of the phase.

The Kharbydis Assault Klaw arrives at the end of the movement phase. It's passengers must immediately disembark. They can't move, because it's the end of the phase. But they do have to disembark - this action is required per the rules.

So you have an end of phase action followed by an action that must occur during the phase. This example illustrates that end of phase does not mean we've moved onto some new sub-phase, or that other actions (disembarking) cannot occur.

To further illustrate, in a game against Eldar, my opponent used some rule / Stratagem / whatever to shoot up my KAC when it was arriving on the board. The rules for disembarking from a destroyed vehicle were applied even though it was the end of the movement phase.

Interpreting end of movement phase as the conclusion of anything that can occur during the phase is very narrow and does not account for all the whatever else can happen during that phase, rules wise. If end of phase truly meant the last thing to happen during the phase, period, the KAC would not be able to be targeted, the passengers could not disembark, etc.

I think what end of movement phase really means is after all other movement is concluded. The rulebook spells out what can happen in the movement phase, once those steps are complete we're at the end of the phase. Anything that's not covered specifically in the mechanics for the phase - including the application of Stratagems - is allowed before moving onto the psychic phase.

Therefore, Cloud of Flies could certainly be used on something arriving at the end of the phase.

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.

Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.

Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.

In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.

In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.

I move my units already on the board DURING the phase.

I reinforce AT THE END OF the phase.

I cannot move units after reinforcing.

You cannot play Cloud of Flies after reinforcing.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.

Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.

Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.

In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.

Where did I say it has to be used before the end of the phase? Please address what I actually say.


Even if you try to play the stratagem at the end of the phase, at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have the reinforcements on the board. At the time you declare you are going to play it, the valid units to receive CoF are the ones on the board at the time you declare. Sequencing doesn't change the fact that the unit wasn't there to be declared a valid target of the strategem at the time you declare that you are playing it.

So, going by your statement "the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one", you should agree with this, since only letting units on the board at the time of the declaration be potential targets of the stratagem is also the simplest interpretation as well as the correct interpretation. Otherwise you have the problem of somebody asking "who are you going to cast it on", and when you say "the arriving unit" you have the problem of declaring you are playing a stratagem on something that isn't there.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues.

Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.

Please remember that the player is the one using the Stratagem, not a unit on the board. For all intents and purposes, no one is waiting for anything to arrive.

In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.

Where did I say it has to be used before the end of the phase? Please address what I actually say.


Even if you try to play the stratagem at the end of the phase, at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have the reinforcements on the board. At the time you declare you are going to play it, the valid units to receive CoF are the ones on the board at the time you declare. Sequencing doesn't change the fact that the unit wasn't there to be declared a valid target of the strategem at the time you declare that you are playing it.

So, going by your statement "the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one", you should agree with this, since only letting units on the board at the time of the declaration be potential targets of the stratagem is also the simplest interpretation as well as the correct interpretation. Otherwise you have the problem of somebody asking "who are you going to cast it on", and when you say "the arriving unit" you have the problem of declaring you are playing a stratagem on something that isn't there.

No, actually, I should not agree with that and believe you missed the point entirely.

We are talking about the application of a Stratagem. There are no rules about when Stratagems are applied except within the Stratagem itself.

Stratagems are different from other mechanics in the game. When Codex Death Guard came out, there was a big discussion about whether or not a CSM Stratagem could be applied to an allied Death Guard force. The Stratagem was Chaos Familiar, the goal was to use it on Mortarion to let him cast Warp Time on himself.

If you read the Stratagem, it says it can be applied to to any Heretic Astartes Psyker. That's a very simple qualification. People argued tooth and nail that you could not do it. Then the FAQ came out confirming that you can, reinforcing the point that Stratagems define their own restrictions.

That was the simplest interpretation.

The qualification for when the Cloud of Flies Stratagem can be applied is the Movement phase. Phases are spelled out in the BRB, there is nothing ambiguous about how phases work.

The BRB spells out rules for how models can move. Nothing else. As long as the player has not moved onto the psychic phase, you are in the movement phase.

Show me a rule that says a Stratagem can only be applied before the 'end of the movement phase' or stop pretending these imaginary rules and restrictions apply anywhere but your own house rules. That's not how anything else in 8th edition works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Where does the Stratagem state that it can only be used before the End of Phase? Please cite a rule about the progression of the Movement phase that supports your example.

In 8th edition, the simplest interpretation of the rules is typically the right one.

I move my units already on the board DURING the phase.

I reinforce AT THE END OF the phase.

I cannot move units after reinforcing.

You cannot play Cloud of Flies after reinforcing.

What does being able to move have to do with being able to apply a Stratagem? Show me anything from the BRB that says that.

Stratagems spell out the conditions under which they can be used. Period.

Is the player in the psychic, shooting, charge, fight, or morale phase? Then Cloud of Flies can't be applied.

Is there some rule that forces players to immediately move into the psychic phase after 'end of movement phase' actions are complete? No such rule exists, there are other mechanics that can come into play.

Okay, you read the stratagem ti tells you what it is applicable to. I look at what's on the board when you're declaring you're using it, and ones that meet the criteria are valid targets. Reinforcements aren't on at the time, so they aren't valid targets.

Reinforcements arreive at the end of the phase. They have to have arrived before you can affect them, so declaring that you are going to play a stratagem on them means you have to be declaring after they have arrived, which means you are trying to declare after the end of the phase, not during. That's a very simple concept - you can't declare you're playing stratagems on things that aren't there when the stratategem doesn't say you can play it on something that isn't there.

 doctortom wrote:
Okay, you read the stratagem ti tells you what it is applicable to. I look at what's on the board when you're declaring you're using it, and ones that meet the criteria are valid targets. Reinforcements aren't on at the time, so they aren't valid targets.

Reinforcements arreive at the end of the phase. They have to have arrived before you can affect them, so declaring that you are going to play a stratagem on them means you have to be declaring after they have arrived, which means you are trying to declare after the end of the phase, not during. That's a very simple concept - you can't declare you're playing stratagems on things that aren't there when the stratategem doesn't say you can play it on something that isn't there.

I've already demonstrated there are many things that happen during the normal course of the game after 'end of the movement phase' occurs, such as disembarking and Eldar shooting. The fact reinforcements are arriving does not automatically move the player into the psychic phase.

The Stratagem says it can be applied during the Movement phase. Period.

Show me something in the BRB that says players are automatically moved into the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Otherwise you are just making stuff up.

So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?

when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.

Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.

 doctortom wrote:
So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?

when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.

Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.

I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.

Your example is silly. The models are on the board. The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.

I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.

But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177

"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"

This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase. They've used their Movement getting to where they are, and the book is saying they are now on the battlefield.

So your example has nothing to do with the actual rules, that's just the way you choose to describe what happens.

Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.

GW simply needs to put out a Designer Note showing the phase model in detail. I'd expect it to look kinda like this, and that's currently HIWPI:

Movement Phase
- Start of Phase ("at the beginning")
- The Actual Phase ("during")
- End of Phase ("at the end")

End and Start are part of the Movement Phase, but anything that says "during" can only be used between Start and End of Phase. Stuff that says "at the end of the phase" cannot be used earlier than that, Stuff that says "at the beginning of the phase" cannot be used after that.

Basically you'd need specific permission to do something at the End or Beginning instead of During of the Phase. The stratagems we have do exactly that if they're meant to be used at that time, otherwise they simply state "during".
Again: HIWPI.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?

when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.

Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.

I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.

Your example is silly. The models are on the board.

Not when you declare. You declare, I ask who you're playing it on, you say a unit of reinforcements. They aren't on the board yet since you're still declaring, nothing's been resolved. Therefore, you are trying to play the stratagem before they are on the board to be a valid target of the stratagem. I would say that claiming you can declare you're playing a stratagem on something not on the board, a stratagem not set up to affect something not on the board (e.g no specific permission to target something off the board or played before there are units on a board, like getting an extra relic), is what is silly, not to mention going against the rules of not being able to affect things off the board. They're off the board at the time you are declaring; so that means you can't choose them as a target at the time you declare you're playing the stratagem. Their actions would have to be fully resolved before you declare (not resolve, but declare), which means it's after the end of the movement phase.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.

Again, you're being obtuse on this. As I have stated before, you are perfectly able to use the stratagem. The question is who you can play the stratagem on. That would be units on the board at the time you say you are playing the stratagem, as per RAW.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.

Yes, other actions can occur after the end of the movement phase. They have to say they can be done there, though, or be specifically a response to something happening (like Auspex triggering when reinforcements arrive). You don't have the wording or the trigger, and reinforcements aren't a valid target when you declare you are playing the unit.

 techsoldaten wrote:
But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177

"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"

This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase.

Actually it says it happens (typically) at the END of the movement phase, not during the movement phase.

 techsoldaten wrote:
They've used their Movement getting to where they are, and the book is saying they re now on the battlefield.

ENTIRE movement phase.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.

There isn't any rule that says you can play something after a phase is over when it says you play it during a phase. You don't have the reinforcements as a valid target when you declare you are going to play it. They're not on the board until after they arrive. Once they've arrived, you are at the end of the turn; if you declare you're playing it at the end they haven't arrived when you declare.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Stratagems are different from other mechanics in the game.

That's convenient and also wrong.

If you can play CoF after reinforcing, so too can you move.

There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says stratagems don't follow all the same rules as everything else.

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.

I understand what you are saying, however I actually wrote an entire post directed at you rather then just this small snippet which addresses how. I have reposted it below so that you can respond to the arguments within.

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?

For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?

As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?

I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.

No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.

Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:

There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.

Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says stratagems don't follow all the same rules as everything else.

Ummm...doesn't every single stratagem break the normal rules of the game?

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jake buddy its pretty clear.

GW have decided to distinguish between things that must happen 'during' and things that must 'at the end' of a phase.

According to GW things that happen during happen before the end. Evidence for this can be seen across multiple things but the most glaringly obvious is movement of units already on the board and the deploying of reinforcements.

Cloud of flies cannot be played on a reinforcement for this reason.

Doctortom has made it clear that he considers that the end of the phase is also during the phase. I was responding to that position and why Cloud of Flies would be allowed to be played under it.


Regarding your position am I to understand that during matched play you would allow an opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of their first movement phase as it is not during a phase?

End of the phase happens at the end of the phase.

You can declare that you are playing Cloud of Flies, but at the time you declare you are playing it you do not have any of the reinforcements on the board, so you can not have any of the reinforcements be the target of the cloud of flies stratatem. You would have to play it on a unit that was on the board before the end of the movement phase. In order to target reinforcements, you would have to be able to play Cloud of Fliles after they have already arrived in order to target them; since they arrive at the end of the phase they could not be targeted for Cloud of Flies until after the end of the movement phase. Whether you can play Cloud of Flies at the end of the phase and what units you can play it on are two completely separate issues. We're not saying end of the turn is after the turn. We're saying that the units you play cloud of flies on are limited to what is on the board at the time you declare you are playing it. You don't get to use shenanigans to play it on a unit that wasn't there when you said you were going to play it.

I understand what you are saying, however I actually wrote an entire post directed at you rather then just this small snippet which addresses how. I have reposted it below so that you can respond to the arguments within.

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

On your first, supposed facetious comment, so what? You play stratagems that specifically allow you to play at the end of the phase, or specifically allow you to play the stratagem in response to something that triggers it at the end of a phase (like Auspex being played when triggered by reinforcements arriving, since that's a specification of the stratagem). Otherwise, you don't.

Also, you are missing the point by a mile. They arrive at the end of the phase. You are trying to play a stratagem based upon their arrrival...at the end of the phase. That means you are not playing the stratagem at the same time, but that you are trying to play the stratagem after they arrive, since it is in response to their arrival. But, it's specified that they arrive at the end of the phase, so this means you are trying to play the stratagem after rhe end of the phase. This is a case where, again, you would only get to play stratagems that specifically allow you to play them in response to reinforcementss arriving (or specifically trigger off of something else that happens only at end of phase). Cloud of Flies does not have this trigger, so therefore you wouldn't get to use it on a unit that arrives from reserves - it's after the movement phase when you would be trying to play it.

Basically, I completely reject your argument that you can play the stratagem :"simultaneouslly" at the end of the round when it is clearly being done in response to the reinforcements arriving. That means it cannot possibly be happening at the same time. It has to happen after the unit arrives on the board, since otherwise the unit's not there to play the stratagem on. You don't have them as a target to cast them on until after they have arrived, which means it happens after then end of the movement phase.

The counter argument is (and this obviously depends on weather or not we consider the end of the phase is during the phase) what is preventing me, knowing that reinforcements are coming on, declare I am playing the cloud of flies stratagem at the end of the movement phase then using sequencing to resolve the order of rules?

For example, we get to the end of the movement phase. I declare that I am using cloud of flies. Declare that with sequencing I will resolve reserves first, then cloud of flies once reserves have arrived?

As an interesting aside, during matched play would you allow your opponent to play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times at the end of the first movement phase? If not could you explain why?

I would say you can't declare that you're playing Cloud of Flies at the end of the round before you have the unit on the board. It's stuff that's supposed to be happening simultaneously. That means that when you're declaring you're playing the stratagem, they are in the process of arriving, but that also means they haven't arrived yet to be a valid target. They aren't a valid target to declare you're playing a stratagem on them until after they've arrived, which puts the declaration as well as resolving it after the end of movement.

No, I wouldn't allow opponent to play the same "at the end of movement phase" stratagem multiple times. It would be played during the round. As I point out above, however, you need to have a vaild target when you're making your declarations for who you're playing stratagems on, and the unit isn't a valid target for declaration until after he arrives, which is after the end of the round. You don't get to declare in anticipation of the unit showing up.

Ok, so if I am to understand correctly you hold the belief that the end of the movement phase is during the movement phase? Based off that assumption:

There is clearly a time that you are allowed to declare that certain stratagems will be played at the end of the movement phase. If I understand your argument correctly you consider "at the end" to be an instant - all actions occurring simultaneously - hence sequencing plays a role in determining in what order rules will be resolved. If you have 2 deep strikers and 2 stratagems that you want to play you can determine the order of resolution.

Assuming the above is in line with your argument consider this: you declare Cloud of Flies when you would otherwise declare a stratagem. Part of the resolution of the Stratagem is to declare a target. Due to sequencing you are not required to resolve it immediately - or more specifically you can resolve other simultaneous actions first such as deep strikers. When you go to resolve the Stratagem that's when you need a valid target.

I saw it, I rejected the argument. Auspex is played in response to reinforcements arriveing; it's a specified trigger that happens after reinforcements arrive (unlike other stratagems). If I take your argument about getting to declare and lump together all end of phase things, whether they're on the board or not, and sequence them out, then Auspex would also happen end of phase and you could sequence it so that you can choose to have the unit with Auspex fire before your reinforcements actually arrive, and not get to actually shoot because there's nothing in range because they're not on the board despite it supposedly being simultaneous. As An Actual Englishman points out (as did I earlier in the thread), if you can play CoF after reinforcing, you can also move another unit after reinforcing by saying you're moving the unit at the end of the phase and then use sequencing to move it after reinforcements. Both of these should point out that your argument of the vast extended period of time for "end of phase" (which turns out to be almost the same vast expanse of time that is "during the phase" except that you're trying to slop everything together at the end) doesn't work. Having the valid target when you initially declare is just as important as having the same target when you resolve. They haven't arrived yet until the end of the phase, so you can't declare you're targeting them until after they have arrived. At that point it's too late to jump on board the sequencing boat, since you've just been doing it for the reinforcements and the end of phase boat has already set sail. You don't get to go "oh, and another thing to add in here" after you've started resolving end of phase actions. When you start with end of phase actions you look at what you have on the board - those are your valid targets. You have to have the valid target then as well as when you resolve.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
So how do you justify declaring you're playing a stratagem on a unit that isn't there when you're declaring?

when you say you're playing the strataegem, you have to look at what you have for legitimate targets when you're declaring. Reinforcements aren't legitimate targets. They haven't arrived when you are declaring you are playing it. You can play the stratagem, you just can't target them.

Show me something in the BRB that says something that is played during a phase can target something after the phase ends, since you can't declare them a target before they arrived.

I don't need to show you anything from the BRB. I am arguing based on the wording of the Stratagem itself, which is in a Codex.

Your example is silly. The models are on the board.

Not when you declare. You declare, I ask who you're playing it on, you say a unit of reinforcements. They aren't on the board yet since you're still declaring, nothing's been resolved. Therefore, you are trying to play the stratagem before they are on the board to be a valid target of the stratagem. I would say that claiming you can declare you're playing a stratagem on something not on the board, a stratagem not set up to affect something not on the board (e.g no specific permission to target something off the board or played before there are units on a board, like getting an extra relic), is what is silly, not to mention going against the rules of not being able to affect things off the board. They're off the board at the time you are declaring; so that means you can't choose them as a target at the time you declare you're playing the stratagem. Their actions would have to be fully resolved before you declare (not resolve, but declare), which means it's after the end of the movement phase.

The BRB says the unit is on the battlefield. I cited the rule in my last post.

You have offered no rules to contract that, just this notion that nothing happens in the movement phase after reinforcements arrive. I've offered examples of things that happen after reinforcements arrive.

This is supposed to be where we clarify rules, not invent them. Cite something from the BRB to support your interpretation.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only way the Stratagem could not apply is if the player was in the Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale phase. Those are the phases of the game spelled out in the BRB.

Again, you're being obtuse on this. As I have stated before, you are perfectly able to use the stratagem. The question is who you can play the stratagem on. That would be units on the board at the time you say you are playing the stratagem, as per RAW.

Read the rules about arriving from reinforcements in the movement phase. The unit is on the table.

Let's say 'end of the Movement phase' worked the way you describe. How could any other action happen in the phase after reinforcements? For example, disembarking from a transport.

You are taking the most narrow interpretation of a phrase and assigning it a meaning equivalent to a turn phase. That's ludicrous.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I have already demonstrated other actions occur after the 'end of the Movement phase' that are perfectly legal. The fact you want to say Stratagems are special and for some odd reason cannot be treated the same as other mechanics makes no sense, unless backed by an actual rule.

Yes, other actions can occur after the end of the movement phase. They have to say they can be done there, though, or be specifically a response to something happening (like Auspex triggering when reinforcements arrive). You don't have the wording or the trigger, and reinforcements aren't a valid target when you declare you are playing the unit.

If other actions happen after reinforcements arrive, which only happens at the 'end of the Movement phase,' then 'end of the Movement phase' is not a terminal point after which the psychic phase begins.

It means when the actions described in the BRB are complete. It allows for other actions to occur during the Movement phase before moving on in the turn cycle described in the BRB.

Reinforcements have arrived on the table, per the BRB. There is no reason a Stratagem cannot be applied.

If this is wrong, cite something in the BRB that says so. Otherwise you are just making up rules.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
But since you insist, here are the rules about reinforcements from p 177

"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying on the battlefield - but can otherwise act normally"

This states that reinforcements arrive on the table during movement phase.

Actually it says it happens (typically) at the END of the movement phase, not during the movement phase.

There is no distinction. The only distinction between phases are the ones spelled out in the BRB.

For the purposes of applying the Stratagem, the player either IS or IS NOT in the movement phase.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
They've used their Movement getting to where they are, and the book is saying they re now on the battlefield.

ENTIRE movement phase.

Again, show me something in the BRB that says a unit must be present at the start of the phase to be targeted by a Stratagem.

Other Stratagems spell out that a unit must be present at the start of the phase for it to be used. It's not like GW isn't sensitive about this.

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Again, I do not believe there is any rule which automatically puts the player in the psychic phase once reinforcements arrive. Please show me one or accept the idea your vivid imagination has nothing to do with the rules for the game.

There isn't any rule that says you can play something after a phase is over when it says you play it during a phase. You don't have the reinforcements as a valid target when you declare you are going to play it. They're not on the board until after they arrive. Once they've arrived, you are at the end of the turn; if you declare you're playing it at the end they haven't arrived when you declare.

No one is playing anything.

Stratagems spell out their own restrictions. The only restriction for Cloud of Flies is during the movement phase. You are drawing a distinction that does not exist in the phase cycle for the game, it's just a phrase used to reference the order in which events happen within the phase.

The player is still in the movement phase after reserves arrive. It could not be any more clear than that.


text removed.
Reds8n

Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psychic phase.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psyhic phase.

The BRB says no such thing.

People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.

That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
Where in the BRB does it state that all reserve units are set up simultaneously? All I see is that it states that it happens "at the end of the movement phase". Also, if the assumption that reinforcements arriving ends the movement phase how do genestealer cultists use their cult ambush? They come in at the end of the movement phase and then can move after. But how could that happen if they arrived at the end? Unless the end of the phase is a period of time during the phase instead of a singular point before the psyhic phase.

The BRB says no such thing.

People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.

That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.

Exactly what I'm thinking. If it's still the movement phase, then its during the movement phase. Besides this idea that models who came from reserves cannot move because it's the end of the movement phase is unsupported. They cannot move after arriving because the BRB specifically says they cannot move. They say that they used up their movement phase joining the battle, but say nothing whatsoever that nothing else can happen during the end of the movement phase.

 doctortom wrote:


I saw it, I rejected the argument. Auspex is played in response to reinforcements arriveing; it's a specified trigger that happens after reinforcements arrive (unlike other stratagems). If I take your argument about getting to declare and lump together all end of phase things, whether they're on the board or not, and sequence them out, then Auspex would also happen end of phase and you could sequence it so that you can choose to have the unit with Auspex fire before your reinforcements actually arrive, and not get to actually shoot because there's nothing in range because they're not on the board despite it supposedly being simultaneous. As An Actual Englishman points out (as did I earlier in the thread), if you can play CoF after reinforcing, you can also move another unit after reinforcing by saying you're moving the unit at the end of the phase and then use sequencing to move it after reinforcements. Both of these should point out that your argument of the vast extended period of time for "end of phase" (which turns out to be almost the same vast expanse of time that is "during the phase" except that you're trying to slop everything together at the end) doesn't work. Having the valid target when you initially declare is just as important as having the same target when you resolve. They haven't arrived yet until the end of the phase, so you can't declare you're targeting them until after they have arrived. At that point it's too late to jump on board the sequencing boat, since you've just been doing it for the reinforcements and the end of phase boat has already set sail. You don't get to go "oh, and another thing to add in here" after you've started resolving end of phase actions. When you start with end of phase actions you look at what you have on the board - those are your valid targets. You have to have the valid target then as well as when you resolve.

Thank you for responding.

Regarding Auspex it clearly says that you play it in response to an enemy arriving from reserves, so your concern about using sequencing to invalidate it is unfounded.

Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.

The lumping of actions all together is due to what you indicated - that the end of phase is instantaneous. If that's not your understanding then let me know as I may have misunderstood you.

Regarding your argument about moving units during the end phase, this all comes down to when you consider the end phase to start. If you consider it to commence only after all of the core movement phase actions have been completed then you would be unable to move during the end of phase.

I want to look at an example of resolving an end of movement phase based on the assumptions you put forwards: The assumption of an instantaneous end phase and that the end of phase is considered during.

Let's say you have 2 strategems to play A and B (both target a unit), and 2 reinforcements to come in X and Y. Let's also assume you have unit Z already on the table.

You would declare "At the end of the movement phase I will be bringing on reserves X and Y, and using Stratagem A and B"
You don't need to declare who is being targeted with Stratagem A or B until you start to resolve them.

So with sequencing you decided you want to bring on unit X first. You then target unit Z with Stratagem A.
You then bring on unit Y. And finally resolve Stratagem B by targeting unit X.

I hope that example illuminates how you might play CoF on reserves under those assumptions.

 techsoldaten wrote:
People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.

That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.

Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.

Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)

According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.

Cloud of flies clearly states it happens "during" the movement phase. This is one of the criteria that determine whether it can be played legally. If you are reinforcing you have without question moved on to the "end of the phase" as we all know reinforcements happen during this time. Stratagems and special rules that specifically state they also happen at the end of the movement phase can now occur. Stratagems and special rules that happen in response to something happening in the end of the phase can now occur. Neither of these is true for CoF.

Now from what I can tell your entire argument seems to rest on the misguided and frankly bizarre belief that for some unknown, magical reason "stratagems don't follow the same rules as everything else in terms of their requirements for play". Despite having zero evidence to back this up. Despite an abundance of evidence to support the exact opposite of this interpretation.

Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.

JakeSiren wrote:

Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.

Sure, that is the first step to resolving the stratagem. However as I said (bolded), you only do that once you start resolving its rules. If there are simultaneous actions the active player decides the order of resolving those rules using sequencing.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating resolving the stratagem beyond that singular point in game time. I'm unsure if you misread or are deliberately straw manning, but I would appreciate if you responded to what I wrote rather then what you think I wrote.

For your reference on sequencing (bolded the pertinent parts):

BRB wrote:While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

*Edit*
As an example of what I'm talking about. Say you wish to resolve both Grandfather's Blessings (Death Guard) and Revolting Regeneration (Chaos Daemons) (both target a unit at the end of the movement phase). You would declare that you are using both at the end of the movement phase. At this point you haven't declared which unit is being targeted by each stratagem. You then use sequencing to say which one you will resolve first. In this case we will resolve Revolting Regeneration first. We go through and resolve that stratagems rules (which include selecting a target). We then resolve the final stratagem Grandfather's Blessings (which also involves selecting a target).

This is of course operating under the assumptions that Doctortom had put forwards.

Yeah, that's not how using a Stratagem works...

Care to elaborate Johnny? How would you play multiple stratagems at the end of the phase under the assumptions that Doctortom put forwards? Specifically the assumption that the end of the phase is an instant point in time.