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Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

This doesn't seem right at all. The expected effect of Agents of Vect is that the stratagem doesn't happen, the DE player is down 3 CP, and their opponent's situation is unchanged. I feel like "your opponent loses 3 CP" is generally way better for you than "pay 3 CP to do some mortal wounds". Like, because Orbital Bombardment isn't great it's not a great target for denial.

I've actually found I've been using it a lot because of how little offense I can bring in a list. At being only once per battle too it's a bit ridiculous for it to be 3CP. It's a 2CP Strategem max. That's the Marine codex for ya.

The problem becomes this:

When you lock them into 3 detachments, they have to chose Battalions or something else.

1) Do their traits even kick in, or does it reference Patrol detachment?

2) Even if they could trait an entire Battalion, the Codex is clearly not designed for that. It is designed that you'll mix and match Covens to make something that feels very patchwork.

So now, you're punishing them for playing Drukhari (and let's be real... they've been punished enough for poor faction choice). I am serious, you are pointing at them and punishing them for using their codex, in the intended way.

Next, just remove their HQs and call them Corsairs. Forge World set a precedence for that. (hyperbole)

Again: classy

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

good luck fitting that at 1850!

I can absolutely guarantee you that the "intended way" to play Drukhari is to run 3 patrol detachments. 7 CP is standard and a perfectly acceptable amount for a 2000 point game.

gungo wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

good luck fitting that at 1850!

You can easily do that right now. In the Index.

You give



to one army, better give it to everyone else too.

Thing is, this stratagem works best against what might be concidered as a better play and what GW wants you to do - combos. It can shut down that 3d stratagem you use after two others to create some sort of awesomeness, which basically means you get punished for using clever and complicated tactics with a single button. And just like with a card above, it really can make some people butthurt.

Another army that just laughs at GK. The anit-psyker strat and the strat denial strat between them they've gutted my army. Guess it might be time to close up my GK shop.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
The problem becomes this:

When you lock them into 3 detachments, they have to chose Battalions or something else.

1) Do their traits even kick in, or does it reference Patrol detachment?

2) Even if they could trait an entire Battalion, the Codex is clearly not designed for that. It is designed that you'll mix and match Covens to make something that feels very patchwork.

So now, you're punishing them for playing Drukhari (and let's be real... they've been punished enough for poor faction choice). I am serious, you are pointing at them and punishing them for using their codex, in the intended way.

Next, just remove their HQs and call them Corsairs. Forge World set a precedence for that. (hyperbole)

Again: classy

Of course their traits will still apply to Battalions. And you can actually bring a reasonable 2k army with 3 Patrols. That's up to 9 Troops and up to 6 of everything else.

The major impact on tournament list-building is that with only 3 detachments it is very hard to include both Dark Eldar and Craftworld or Harlequin or Ynnari detachments, since you're pushed so hard to bring DE in Patrols. I don't actually have a problem with this, philosophically, but I can't imagine that that's intended given how soup-able Imperium and Chaos are. Which is why I think it's more likely than not that we get a "3 DE Patrols only take up one slot" rule in some big tournament packs.

Without wishing to reignite the 40k/CCG hoohaa the Vect stratagem is essentially a Counterspell / Cancel effect, and whilst its undeniable its strong it can be played around especially as most of the time it refunds CP so means you can bait it out by playing a 2/3cp and then playing another if they bite or dont if they dont

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Without wishing to reignite the 40k/CCG hoohaa the Vect stratagem is essentially a Counterspell / Cancel effect, and whilst its undeniable its strong it can be played around especially as most of the time it refunds CP so means you can bait it out by playing a 2/3cp and then playing another if they bite or dont if they dont

Strategy is a sin around here, apparently

Also: deviating from "What vogue faction Y does" is also a sin.

First sentence on the first preview is that Drukhari are expected to do things differently. Remember, they got bored with conventional warfare centuries ago. I mean, you could force them down into 3 patrol detachments with 7 CP. And they could probably function.

But that seems like a lot of burden all centered around a rule that is not even a rule - it is still a guideline.

A guideline that GW seems to be intent on violating with this army.

I guess people can just throw their hands up and refuse to play dark eldar because they don't play aggro and play counterspell instead... or because the dark eldar bring 4 detachments and there is some (obviously) unwritten rule that says the number you shall count to is 3.

Codex isn't even out and so much foul is being cried because something deviates from the 4S 4T 3+ BS and 3+ Armor template.

Its just going to make CWE better.......

1900pts of CWE
1 DE Patrol of Archon, 2x5man Kabals, stops all best Stratagems in game

GG CWE.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Without wishing to reignite the 40k/CCG hoohaa the Vect stratagem is essentially a Counterspell / Cancel effect, and whilst its undeniable its strong it can be played around especially as most of the time it refunds CP so means you can bait it out by playing a 2/3cp and then playing another if they bite or dont if they dont

Strategy is a sin around here, apparently

Also: deviating from "What vogue faction Y does" is also a sin.

First sentence on the first preview is that Drukhari are expected to do things differently. Remember, they got bored with conventional warfare centuries ago. I mean, you could force them down into 3 patrol detachments with 7 CP. And they could probably function.

But that seems like a lot of burden all centered around a rule that is not even a rule - it is still a guideline.

A guideline that GW seems to be intent on violating with this army.

I guess people can just throw their hands up and refuse to play dark eldar because they don't play aggro and play counterspell instead... or because the dark eldar bring 4 detachments and there is some (obviously) unwritten rule that says the number you shall count to is 3.

Codex isn't even out and so much foul is being cried because something deviates from the 4S 4T 3+ BS and 3+ Armor template.

I wouldn't mind playing a Dark Eldar army with more than 3 detachments. That said I don't think tournaments will allow it (of course the codex may have some language that specifically indicates that they can take more than 3 regardless). While the 'suggestion' is of 3 detachments, that has turned into the rule for most tournaments and so it probably bares keeping any 'competitive' discussion of the book framed in that light.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

No... Dont forget that DE vehicles are paper and the HQs are not very good. We are now a Horde MSU army, we will need the stratagems, CP and multi-detachments. 6 Detachments for more CP's means we are FORCE to take 6 HQs and 6 Troops, its a large tax for an extra 3CP over just taking normal detachments like Outrider/Vanguard etc..

In order to even play how DE is meant to be play we need those detachments, and to use this Stratagem, we need this Obsession, which isnt even that good, making it another tax to even get the stratagem, we will need an Archon and Kabal unit literally just walking and sitting around to gain this 3CP stratagem. Our "free" ability CoM is now a 2CP stratagem, our wargear "Soul Stone" is now a Stratagem, saying we shouldnt have 6 detachments could be painfull for DE

If you, your local, tournaments limit it before even letting players test it out, we will never know if it is really good, needed, or bad.

Edit: Spelling and Note: This is based off of info we have and how it looks like it is moving towards.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

I wouldn't mind playing a Dark Eldar army with more than 3 detachments. That said I don't think tournaments will allow it (of course the codex may have some language that specifically indicates that they can take more than 3 regardless). While the 'suggestion' is of 3 detachments, that has turned into the rule for most tournaments and so it probably bares keeping any 'competitive' discussion of the book framed in that light.

Even to the detriment of an entire army?

That's what I have a problem standing behind.

If the intended build is 4-5 detachments, and the third-party sponsored events (and/or playerbase) refuse to budge on that "suggestion" that there is a 3 detachment limit... is that not in fact punishing a player for his faction selection? Creating a state where the core army is played drastically differently than it is mechanically created to?

That is my big hanging point with all of this. We're trying to shove a left foot into a right shoe. To be fair, it has never been a concern until this exact point. But it is definitely a consideration TOs and players will have to have going forward.

Do we say that Drukhari have another detachment limit? Patrol detachments do not count against the 3 detachment limit? Can a player bring 2 patrols in lieu of 1 normal selection?

But jumping out and just saying NO, I REFUSE TO LET THEM DO THIS! is just being... a person on the internet (not insinuating people are, at this point, but this is in fact the internet)

And now that circles all the way back to the Agents of Vect - people don't like it because it hasn't been done. Flat out negating a Stratagem via a stratagem is just... foreign, and many people are going to react poorly to it without any real critical thought. Because shutting down Endless Cacophony on turn 1 off of Deep Striking Obliterators may enable the opponent to strike back and make the game go past turn 2-3 or something. Or, more pointedly, it directly screws with the plan and people freak out when the plan doesn't go according to plan.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

I wouldn't mind playing a Dark Eldar army with more than 3 detachments. That said I don't think tournaments will allow it (of course the codex may have some language that specifically indicates that they can take more than 3 regardless). While the 'suggestion' is of 3 detachments, that has turned into the rule for most tournaments and so it probably bares keeping any 'competitive' discussion of the book framed in that light.

Even to the detriment of an entire army?

That's what I have a problem standing behind.

If the intended build is 4-5 detachments, and the third-party sponsored events (and/or playerbase) refuse to budge on that "suggestion" that there is a 3 detachment limit... is that not in fact punishing a player for his faction selection? Creating a state where the core army is played drastically differently than it is mechanically created to?

That is my big hanging point with all of this. We're trying to shove a left foot into a right shoe. To be fair, it has never been a concern until this exact point. But it is definitely a consideration TOs and players will have to have going forward.

Do we say that Drukhari have another detachment limit? Patrol detachments do not count against the 3 detachment limit? Can a player bring 2 patrols in lieu of 1 normal selection?

But jumping out and just saying NO, I REFUSE TO LET THEM DO THIS! is just being... a person on the internet (not insinuating people are, at this point, but this is in fact the internet)

And now that circles all the way back to the Agents of Vect - people don't like it because it hasn't been done. Flat out negating a Stratagem via a stratagem is just... foreign, and many people are going to react poorly to it without any real critical thought. Because shutting down Endless Cacophony on turn 1 off of Deep Striking Obliterators may enable the opponent to strike back and make the game go past turn 2-3 or something. Or, more pointedly, it directly screws with the plan and people freak out when the plan doesn't go according to plan.

I think there are plenty of people who'll make the counter argument of why allow Dark Eldar to do it when I can't? Please note this isn't my argument, nor do I agree with it - I play Dark Eldar. That said I'm planning on running a battalion + two support detachments right now because I simply don't believe I will be allowed to exceed 3 detachments. As to Agents of Vect itself? Its a cool stratagem and genuinely interesting - I think at 3 CP its fine because more often than not I'll be playing with 8ish CP so it's a major investment on my part.

Anyone that makes the argument "If cant use more detachments, then why should DE" is just a child and doesnt understand game balance.

here is an example in a different way "My DE doesn't have Psychic powers, so no one else can"

Well DE doesnt have them b.c they are balanced that way, the same way DE is now balanced around multi-detachments.

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Of course that's out for tournaments and generally out of any league/random games. 3 det in 2k is pretty much standard

tneva82 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Of course that's out for tournaments and generally out of any league/random games. 3 det in 2k is pretty much standard

Just b.c it was, doesnt mean it has to be, DE has a core rule in their new codex that says you can take 6, why should they not be allowed?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.

If we're going to discuss how balanced something is then we're going to do it within the context of matched play. It doesn't make sense for us to talk about all the options outside of that all the time, because there are way too many.

And again, that is not a Matched play rule. It is a suggestion for an organized event. So in the context of the Matched play rules, a player can indeed bring six detachments.

But if pretty much all use it that "suggestion" has power of rule. Of course if you like playing solo it works

Tell them they, too, can play dark eldar. So they can in fact "do it".

Just kidding around with that, really.

I think the major crux of all of this will come down to how much of the Dark Eldar force is going to center around CP. Availability to those CP could have a major impact on the army. They likely will not have a psychic phase, I would be shocked if they did, so they're going to have to get their force multiplication elsewhere (which is likely auras and stratagems).

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Anyone that makes the argument "If cant use more detachments, then why should DE" is just a child and doesnt understand game balance.

If only you followed along in all the 'soup' threads. And again this isn't my argument, I just have a strong feeling that the 3 detachment limit will stay in place for tournaments.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

If orbital bombardment is bad why would you ever spend 3cp to have the chance to cancel it, usually without cp cost to the opponent? This comment seems bizarre.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Anyone that makes the argument "If cant use more detachments, then why should DE" is just a child and doesnt understand game balance.

If only you followed along in all the 'soup' threads. And again this isn't my argument, I just have a strong feeling that the 3 detachment limit will stay in place for tournaments.

I do follow,and i wasnt meaning it to you but to the ones that are acting like that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Of course that's out for tournaments and generally out of any league/random games. 3 det in 2k is pretty much standard

Just b.c it was, doesnt mean it has to be, DE has a core rule in their new codex that says you can take 6, why should they not be allowed?

So far no such rule has been previewed.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.

If we're going to discuss how balanced something is then we're going to do it within the context of matched play. It doesn't make sense for us to talk about all the options outside of that all the time, because there are way too many.

And again, that is not a Matched play rule. It is a suggestion for an organized event. So in the context of the Matched play rules, a player can indeed bring six detachments.

But if pretty much all use it that "suggestion" has power of rule. Of course if you like playing solo it works

No. It's still nothing more than a suggestion for organized events, no matter how many players use it.

Ix_Tab wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

If orbital bombardment is bad why would you ever spend 3cp to have the chance to cancel it, usually without cp cost to the opponent? This comment seems bizarre.

Xeno is known for being fairly...melodramatic...in his/her evaluation of the game.

tneva82 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Of course that's out for tournaments and generally out of any league/random games. 3 det in 2k is pretty much standard

Just b.c it was, doesnt mean it has to be, DE has a core rule in their new codex that says you can take 6, why should they not be allowed?

So far no such rule has been previewed.

yes it was..............

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/26/codex-drukhai-preview-assembling-your-raiding-party/

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.

If we're going to discuss how balanced something is then we're going to do it within the context of matched play. It doesn't make sense for us to talk about all the options outside of that all the time, because there are way too many.

And again, that is not a Matched play rule. It is a suggestion for an organized event. So in the context of the Matched play rules, a player can indeed bring six detachments.

But if pretty much all use it that "suggestion" has power of rule. Of course if you like playing solo it works

No. It's still nothing more than a suggestion for organized events, no matter how many players use it.

Sure. Doesn't change that you are strugling to find game without that. Have fun playing solo

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

If orbital bombardment is bad why would you ever spend 3cp to have the chance to cancel it, usually without cp cost to the opponent? This comment seems bizarre.

Xeno is known for being fairly...melodramatic...in his/her evaluation of the game.

I feel like I need an "It's a trap!" meme for this...

It would also be very Vect like, but I do not currently have 3 CP to play it :(

 Ghaz wrote:

No. It's still nothing more than a suggestion for organized events, no matter how many players use it.

It does however bear at least remembering that most tournaments have that restriction so we should at least consider when we're framing up the conversation. I know this is your specific hill you're willing to die on and all but there's some merit in at least discussing how everything plays out in a 3 detachment limited format.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/26/codex-drukhai-preview-assembling-your-raiding-party/

To play devil's advocate here - that doesn't say we are allowed to only that that is what happens when we do (i.e. if we play past 2,000 points for example).