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This will be a very powerful strategem for ig. Just take a de detachment - like 3 archons or something - and block your enemy all day long. Ig have plenty of cp with double refills and don't know where to spend them.


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You can take a de detachment alongside ig detachment and stay battleforged, right?


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Also, if your army is dependent on a strategem, you' re kinda forced to take agents of vect to protect from agents of vect.

Woah Kabalites at 6 pts...that stuff is now too cheap and you'll be seeing Kabalite spam from the codex release onwards

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Yes but some stratagems affect army composition. Such as the chapter master stratagem. It wouldn't make sense to deny this and change an opponents list.

You mean the Chapter Master Strategem nobody uses because just a few more points gives you a character with the same benefit plus probably what is another neat rule?

It isn't even the proliferation of Chapter Master characters either. It just isn't worth that many CP.

You could use Death Visions of Sanguinius as your example instead. I sure hope you're not going to argue no one uses that.

Correct.
I will instead argue that it (and the Chapter master for example) are pre-game stratagems which the Vect strat specifically says you cannot stop.

 Ordana wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Yes but some stratagems affect army composition. Such as the chapter master stratagem. It wouldn't make sense to deny this and change an opponents list.

You mean the Chapter Master Strategem nobody uses because just a few more points gives you a character with the same benefit plus probably what is another neat rule?

It isn't even the proliferation of Chapter Master characters either. It just isn't worth that many CP.

You could use Death Visions of Sanguinius as your example instead. I sure hope you're not going to argue no one uses that.

Correct.
I will instead argue that it (and the Chapter master for example) are pre-game stratagems which the Vect strat specifically says you cannot stop.

And we think the cut off part is "During deployment" so redeploys or others stratagems at that time cant be counter as well.

 koooaei wrote:
You can take a de detachment alongside ig detachment and stay battleforged, right?

Nope, no shared keyword.

Use it to block a CP reroll to revive RG. Delicious.

Can the Agents of Vect counter the Agents of Vect in a mirror match of Vect versus Vect?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can the Agents of Vect counter the Agents of Vect in a mirror match of Vect versus Vect?

It becomes a sequencing rule and that means who ever players turn it is, gets to pick the order, so unless its your turn its pointless to play.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can the Agents of Vect counter the Agents of Vect in a mirror match of Vect versus Vect?

It becomes a sequencing rule and that means who ever players turn it is, gets to pick the order, so unless its your turn its pointless to play.

Why would it be a sequencing thing? They're not targeting each other. If the player whose turn it is can choose to have the opposing player's Agents of Vect go off after the stratagem it's targeting resolves such that AoV has no effect, then it doesn't actually work at against any stratagem used during a player's own turn.

It's clear from the text that the second AoV is resolved before the first one is. That's the first sentence of the rules.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can the Agents of Vect counter the Agents of Vect in a mirror match of Vect versus Vect?

It becomes a sequencing rule and that means who ever players turn it is, gets to pick the order, so unless its your turn its pointless to play.

Why would it be a sequencing thing? They're not targeting each other. If the player whose turn it is can choose to have the opposing player's Agents of Vect go off after the stratagem it's targeting resolves such that AoV has no effect, then it doesn't actually work at against any stratagem used during a player's own turn.

It's clear from the text that the second AoV is resolved before the first one is. That's the first sentence of the rules.

I re-read it, i thought it was slightly worded differently. It would counter the counter yes.

Hey. If everyone else can just take more than 3 detachments, looks like my Feculent Gnarlmaw (and the Fort Detachment) is making it into every list I write now. Thanks GW!

 Peregrine wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You can take a de detachment alongside ig detachment and stay battleforged, right?

Nope, no shared keyword.

That's actually a separate Matched play rule, found on page 214 of the main rulebook under 'Army Faction'.

 Ghaz wrote:
That's actually a separate Matched play rule, found on page 214 of the main rulebook under 'Army Faction'.

Matched play is the only relevant game type. Nobody cares about absurd "bring whatever you want" games.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That's actually a separate Matched play rule, found on page 214 of the main rulebook under 'Army Faction'.

Matched play is the only relevant game type. Nobody cares about absurd "bring whatever you want" games.

HEY! we all want to play our 1 DE detachment for counter stratagems, while playing our Ynnari Dark Reaper and Shiny Spear units next to the BA smash Captain, and Chaos Poxwalkers! for real man, come on this is the best way to play!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That's actually a separate Matched play rule, found on page 214 of the main rulebook under 'Army Faction'.

Matched play is the only relevant game type. Nobody cares about absurd "bring whatever you want" games.

Speak for yourself.

However, I do agree that seeing as people are bringing the minimum Vect force to be competitive rather than narrative (because I really don't see many circumstances in which taking a tiny Dark Eldar force allied to your IoM force is narrative), it is a Matched Play issue.

Matched Play, however, isn't the only type of play, and are still affected by certain sweeping "fixes" to Matched.

Regardless, saying that your army is "unplayable" because you can't rely on a crutch stratagem (that you can still use later, and the DE player needs to waste 3CP on it, and can only do it once per phase - which they will eventually run out of) is either tactically deficient that they absolutely cannot use another option, or vastly exaggerating.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That's actually a separate Matched play rule, found on page 214 of the main rulebook under 'Army Faction'.

Matched play is the only relevant game type. Nobody cares about absurd "bring whatever you want" games.

It's still a separate rule from Battle-forged (which in and of itself is under 'Advanced Rules' section of the rulebook, not 'Matched Play'). I was just letting koooael know why he couldn't find it under the Battle-forged rules.

I can't see how Agents of Vect will make a difference in most games.

For one, most Eldar armies I have faced have about 8 CPs max. Even if the AoV is successful, that's at most 2 blocked Stratagems. It comes at the cost of rerolls and other Stratagems.

For another, how many armies really rely on Stratagems to the point where this is going to make a difference? I play CSMs, maybe if someone used it to block Tide of Traitors it could affect me capturing a single objective. Or maybe to block Veterans of the Long War / Endless Cacophony on a unit of Obliterators. But it's rare for me to play a game where either makes or breaks me, since so many other factors affect the outcome.

More than happy to have opponents spending 3 command points on a Stratagem that, at best, inconveniences me. The fact it has a 16% chance of burning my command points is not enough to care about.

Thats right techsoldaten. For example I too don't care about this stratagem with my lists.

But as a stratagem, you use it wen it makes a difference, and in games where it doesnt, you just don't use it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I can't see how Agents of Vect will make a difference in most games.

For one, most Eldar armies I have faced have about 8 CPs max. Even if the AoV is successful, that's at most 2 blocked Stratagems. It comes at the cost of rerolls and other Stratagems.

For another, how many armies really rely on Stratagems to the point where this is going to make a difference? I play CSMs, maybe if someone used it to block Tide of Traitors it could affect me capturing a single objective. Or maybe to block Veterans of the Long War / Endless Cacophony on a unit of Obliterators. But it's rare for me to play a game where either makes or breaks me, since so many other factors affect the outcome.

More than happy to have opponents spending 3 command points on a Stratagem that, at best, inconveniences me. The fact it has a 16% chance of burning my command points is not enough to care about.

It definitely isn't an auto-win button, but there are still situations where it's worth using. You listed several just now, and others have pointed out things like BA 3d6 charges and intercepting dark reapers. Dark Eldar are very fragile and very fond of being the ones on offense. So Agents of Vect lets you mess up your opponent's plans at a key moment, thus either keeping more of your units alive or making it easier to kill enemy units (picture reapers trying to move back into cover with Fire and Fade suddenly being left exposed to enemy fire.) It's expensive, but if you use it in the right place at the right time, you can dramatically alter the momentum of the game.

You're right though. You want use this very many times. I imagine that for armies with only 7 or 8 CP, using this more than once will generally be a mistake. That said, it's worth mentioning that the Black Heart trait gives you a chance to regenerate CP over the course of the game, so that may or may not help with the high cost of AoV.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I can't see how Agents of Vect will make a difference in most games.

For one, most Eldar armies I have faced have about 8 CPs max. Even if the AoV is successful, that's at most 2 blocked Stratagems. It comes at the cost of rerolls and other Stratagems.

For another, how many armies really rely on Stratagems to the point where this is going to make a difference? I play CSMs, maybe if someone used it to block Tide of Traitors it could affect me capturing a single objective. Or maybe to block Veterans of the Long War / Endless Cacophony on a unit of Obliterators. But it's rare for me to play a game where either makes or breaks me, since so many other factors affect the outcome.

More than happy to have opponents spending 3 command points on a Stratagem that, at best, inconveniences me. The fact it has a 16% chance of burning my command points is not enough to care about.

Some armies are going to be much more vulnerable to this. If your game plan hangs on strategem like ba 3d6 charge this can screw them. Otoh ig usually doesn't have strategem that's crucial to go off so apart from reroll at crucial point not going to kill them as badly as 3d6 charge not going off.

3CP are really a lot. Drukhari will not spam brigades or battallions, they usually have 7 CPs in total and we need a few of them to re roll the bad results on the D6 damage on the dark lances.

Right now I don't think I'd use this stratagem regularly.

I loathe everything about this Strategem. It will just encourage more soup hijinx.

Eldar Brigade with Dark Eldar Patrol detachment... Haha, good game nerd. Hope you don't rely on Strategems... Or your models not being dead from Dark Reapers or Shining Spears.

Dark elder get to use patrol detachments for CP unlike other armies yet they don't have to do so. They can take 2 battalions or a brigade just like anyone else for 9+ CP.

They will be fine without their 6 patrols.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Dark elder get to use patrol detachments for CP unlike other armies yet they don't have to do so. They can take 2 battalions or a brigade just like anyone else for 9+ CP.

They will be fine without their 6 patrols.

I don't think DE will play regularly with more than 7-8 points. 3 HQs are already a tax. 2x battallions will not be that common and the brigade won't gonna happen at 2000 points unless the DE player brings only a few (or even zero) transports and I'm not sure he really wants that.

The 6 patrols look a bit more interesting than the brigade. At least you don't have to spam unwanted elites or fast attacks. But the 6 HQs tax may be huge.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I loathe everything about this Strategem. It will just encourage more soup hijinx.

Eldar Brigade with Dark Eldar Patrol detachment... Haha, good game nerd. Hope you don't rely on Strategems... Or your models not being dead from Dark Reapers or Shining Spears.

And then you can be grateful that they can't spend those 3CP on all the really good Craftworld strats.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I loathe everything about this Strategem. It will just encourage more soup hijinx.

Eldar Brigade with Dark Eldar Patrol detachment... Haha, good game nerd. Hope you don't rely on Strategems... Or your models not being dead from Dark Reapers or Shining Spears.

The problem is the soup itself, not the drukhari codex. They have been garbage so far, they deserve a strong codex. Nerfing the soups is something very needed IMHO, it's actually the most important thing I'd like to be included in the upcoming FAQs. More than nerfing the dark reapers or the new tyranids overpowered list.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Hey. If everyone else can just take more than 3 detachments, looks like my Feculent Gnarlmaw (and the Fort Detachment) is making it into every list I write now. Thanks GW!

Why would anyone including my Dark Eldar get to use more than 3 detachments in normal games? I don't see any need for it.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Why would anyone including my Dark Eldar get to use more than 3 detachments in normal games?

Because that's the rules for normal games.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Hey. If everyone else can just take more than 3 detachments, looks like my Feculent Gnarlmaw (and the Fort Detachment) is making it into every list I write now. Thanks GW!

Why would anyone including my Dark Eldar get to use more than 3 detachments in normal games? I don't see any need for it.

See earlier in this thread where people were complaining that GW obviously intends for DE to bring 6 or more detachments when others bring 3.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Why would anyone including my Dark Eldar get to use more than 3 detachments in normal games?

Because that's the rules for normal games.

We've scoured the rulebook, again, and only found the suggestion. Please quote for me where this is a rule.

If you're talking about local houserules and 3rd party tournament rules, go ahead.

The only rule we've found is the bit about "an army can contain any number of detachments", which seems right there to spit in the face of everyone saying DE can only take 3.