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Prophets of flesh gortesques are one of the best units in the game. I own 22 and rarely use them all because they are pretty annoying for folks to play against.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Prophets of flesh gortesques are one of the best units in the game. I own 22 and rarely use them all because they are pretty annoying for folks to play against.

Glad to hear... how do you play them? 1x10man Grot squard WWP'ing turn 2?

Stuff them in as many Raiders?

Stuff 7x grots + hammy in Tantalus?

I usually just walk a unit of 7-10 up the gut as they say.

All those other methods can work though. I would encourage you to mix it up and play around until you know what will compliment the style list your running. It's kind of tough to say exactly how they should be run without seeing your army.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Prophets of flesh gortesques are one of the best units in the game. I own 22 and rarely use them all because they are pretty annoying for folks to play against.

>22 grotesques

oh boy i hope you found some cool (cheaper) conversion or got them second hand

if not.... can i trouble you for a dollar?

Bullygrins seem pretty much to be exactly like Gorts but better >.>;;

 Red Corsair wrote:
I usually just walk a unit of 7-10 up the gut as they say.

All those other methods can work though. I would encourage you to mix it up and play around until you know what will compliment the style list your running. It's kind of tough to say exactly how they should be run without seeing your army.

I basically play a kabal of darklight spam. (think 3x ravagers, 3x reapers and sometimes index blaster borns.)

I've been having some success with a spearhead of hammy and 3x Taloi, but it seems I can drop the blaster borns and others to fit in some Grots to keep the pressure off of my ravagers/reapers.

 whembly wrote:
Hey guys... more questions...

Groteques: Has anyone played them? (I'm assuming from prophet of pain??).

How do you play them? WWP them for turn 2 mayhem? Full squad? Are they worth it?

I only have 3 Groteques and they're rather pricey to get 7 more...

Thoughts?

Grotesques are one of the best units in the game, you will take them as PoF, a 4++/6+++, and dont buy the singles, just get Crypt Fiends or Ogres from Fantasy and mix in Talos bits

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Hey guys... more questions...

Groteques: Has anyone played them? (I'm assuming from prophet of pain??).

How do you play them? WWP them for turn 2 mayhem? Full squad? Are they worth it?

I only have 3 Groteques and they're rather pricey to get 7 more...

Thoughts?

Grotesques are one of the best units in the game, you will take them as PoF, a 4++/6+++, and dont buy the singles, just get Crypt Fiends or Ogres from Fantasy and mix in Talos bits

Oh... great idea on the Crypt Fiends+Talos! Thanks guys!

drakerocket wrote:
Bullygrins seem pretty much to be exactly like Gorts but better >.>;;

No denying that Bullgryns are great but there are some subtleties about Grots that aren't immediately obvious.

Being 4 wounds is awesome when barely anything in the game does flat 4 damage, it means that nothing is very efficient at killing them. A 3 damage weapon kills a Bullgryn but takes 2 to kill a Grot, against a 2 damage weapon you will make a 6+++ just over half the time, again making it inefficient.

Grots are better at killing hordes (which are prevalent) and without having done the maths I would wager that their damage output is similar with the reroll to wound strat and +1 to hit on T3.

Importantly, they're also faster, especially with reroll advance and charge.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Prophets of flesh gortesques are one of the best units in the game. I own 22 and rarely use them all because they are pretty annoying for folks to play against.

>22 grotesques

oh boy i hope you found some cool (cheaper) conversion or got them second hand

if not.... can i trouble you for a dollar?

I made 12 with crypt horrors from fantasy, and I made 10 with legion of everblight warspears minis all kitbashed with talos bits. I made them at the end of 5th and into 6th because coven is my jam. They just got real good on me lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Prophets of flesh gortesques are one of the best units in the game. I own 22 and rarely use them all because they are pretty annoying for folks to play against.

>22 grotesques

oh boy i hope you found some cool (cheaper) conversion or got them second hand

if not.... can i trouble you for a dollar?

I made 12 with crypt horrors from fantasy, and I made 10 with legion of everblight warspears minis all kitbashed with talos bits. I made them at the end of 5th and into 6th because coven is my jam. They just got real good on me lol.

I've got 6 made from crypt fiends (or is it horrors) and talos.

I put them in raiders, or just have them walk.

ryuken87 wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Bullygrins seem pretty much to be exactly like Gorts but better >.>;;

No denying that Bullgryns are great but there are some subtleties about Grots that aren't immediately obvious.

Being 4 wounds is awesome when barely anything in the game does flat 4 damage, it means that nothing is very efficient at killing them. A 3 damage weapon kills a Bullgryn but takes 2 to kill a Grot, against a 2 damage weapon you will make a 6+++ just over half the time, again making it inefficient.

Aaaaah yes that's nasty. I remember sending my da killa klaw brutal&kunning warboss who averages out dead knight and only barely killed them(and that's dying in process). And almost failed to do that as well.

That W4 is bigger than one might think out.

Also dont forget, we are DE, we have 6+++ always, 4++/6+++/4wounds, and re-roll charge turn 2, +1 to hit turn 3

I love my grotesques, but they've been retired from my competitive lists for ~6 months due to the increased prevalence of Deathwatch. How do you find yourselves dealing with a matchup against deathwatch when running a big grotesque squad? They mostly just eat my lunch.

Drager wrote:
I love my grotesques, but they've been retired from my competitive lists for ~6 months due to the increased prevalence of Deathwatch. How do you find yourselves dealing with a matchup against deathwatch when running a big grotesque squad? They mostly just eat my lunch.

Good thing they were nerfed to the ground then huh

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Drager wrote:
I love my grotesques, but they've been retired from my competitive lists for ~6 months due to the increased prevalence of Deathwatch. How do you find yourselves dealing with a matchup against deathwatch when running a big grotesque squad? They mostly just eat my lunch.

Good thing they were nerfed to the ground then huh

In what way? You can still deep strike in Stormvets and batter Grots unless I missed something in the FAQ. 2 storm vets kill a grotesque on the drop and they often drop ~20 of them.

I rarely see DW dropping in. When I do it isn't in large numbers. Your army needs to have more tools from the sound of it. If you play strictly coven then your gona have some really bad counters, thousand son death hex is another PITA. It just happens when you go all in on one strategy.

Luckily, even 10 grotesques are only 350 points and theres plenty of room for some variety. Take a squad of mandrakes and a voidraven. The mortal wounds really give their storm shields pause. As for when they do drop vets in, you need to screen mate. There is no reason for them to be dropping in within 12" when you can deploy fliers and use venoms to screen them back. At the very least, it should be hard for them to drop in 20 models on 32mm bases within double tap range. If you cut their shots down to half (none rapid fire) your probably looking at 3 dead grots max (40 shots, 26 hits, 26 wounds if they mission tactic elites, 13 through invulns, you shrug 2 for ~11 damage) . Thats only 105 points, then you just kill what dropped in and profit.

I really like the "stuckubus" for this scenario as well BTW. You can always pin them in combat if you cannot deal with the entire lot. Just use something else to tag the majority of the unit/soak overwatch and charge her onto a far flank so they cannot beat her to death.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I rarely see DW dropping in. When I do it isn't in large numbers. Your army needs to have more tools from the sound of it. If you play strictly coven then your gona have some really bad counters, thousand son death hex is another PITA. It just happens when you go all in on one strategy.

Luckily, even 10 grotesques are only 350 points and theres plenty of room for some variety. Take a squad of mandrakes and a voidraven. The mortal wounds really give their storm shields pause. As for when they do drop vets in, you need to screen mate. There is no reason for them to be dropping in within 12" when you can deploy fliers and use venoms to screen them back. At the very least, it should be hard for them to drop in 20 models on 32mm bases within double tap range. If you cut their shots down to half (none rapid fire) your probably looking at 3 dead grots max (40 shots, 26 hits, 26 wounds if they mission tactic elites, 13 through invulns, you shrug 2 for ~11 damage) . Thats only 105 points, then you just kill what dropped in and profit.

My army is pretty varied already. Losing 350pts for no benefit in a common matchup just makes we want to play a different unit though. Last time I was using Grots they ahd to be the tip of the spear in the army though, so I might give them another run.

Drager wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I rarely see DW dropping in. When I do it isn't in large numbers. Your army needs to have more tools from the sound of it. If you play strictly coven then your gona have some really bad counters, thousand son death hex is another PITA. It just happens when you go all in on one strategy.

Luckily, even 10 grotesques are only 350 points and theres plenty of room for some variety. Take a squad of mandrakes and a voidraven. The mortal wounds really give their storm shields pause. As for when they do drop vets in, you need to screen mate. There is no reason for them to be dropping in within 12" when you can deploy fliers and use venoms to screen them back. At the very least, it should be hard for them to drop in 20 models on 32mm bases within double tap range. If you cut their shots down to half (none rapid fire) your probably looking at 3 dead grots max (40 shots, 26 hits, 26 wounds if they mission tactic elites, 13 through invulns, you shrug 2 for ~11 damage) . Thats only 105 points, then you just kill what dropped in and profit.

My army is pretty varied already. Losing 350pts for no benefit in a common matchup just makes we want to play a different unit though. Last time I was using Grots they ahd to be the tip of the spear in the army though, so I might give them another run.

I feel like this is just part and parcel for the game though. Any really strong unit that isn't broken will have counters. BTW those 350 points are not easily killed with clever play as I just pointed out. You can also WWP them in on turn 2 if your really fussed or it makes sense. I generally don't expect to come out of the early turns without taking some heavy casualties. Death watch are slow and infantry, two of the things our army takes advantage of most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe sharing the DW list and your own might give me a better picture. Feel free to tell me what you want to avoid using etc. as well if you like. I generally find it's more useful and easier to discuss counter strategy when you know whats being used exactly.

If he is taking the 4x9 Vets with SS/SB's yeah that is a problem. But remember it takes equal points in Vets to kill in Grots. If they are using them all to shoot you Grots turn 1 then you can shoot and kill at least 3 of the 4 units next turn. So its a trade that will be better for you.

Just make sure otposition yourself to shoot them after they teleport to the beacon, might want to take 1 unit of Mandrakes to put in the back and stop that.

Q: Can the Counter-offensive Stratagem be used to negate a unit fighting last because of the Vexator Mask Artefact?
A: Yes, the Counter Offensive Stratagem allows a unit
to fight outside of the normal fight order (i.e. the
Stratagem does not give a unit the ability to fight first in
the Fight phase, it simply instructs you to pick a unit and
fight with it next).

From the new faq.

So we just lost half the utility of the mask. And in my mind the good half.
We pick a unit we want to go last they pick a unit they want to go next, its always going to be the same unit, because thats the most dangerous one. Sure it cost 2 command points but they were going to spend them any way. Or they weren't becuase they don't care the the unit we vex goes last. If they have 2 dangerous units the counter-offence the one we vex and attack normally with the other one.

This took a really powerful artifact with a cool ablity to a basic ignores overwatch relic. All the ingnores overwatch relics also do something else. Ours does too on paper but in practice I don't think it will with the new change.

Headlss wrote:

Q: Can the Counter-offensive Stratagem be used to negate a unit fighting last because of the Vexator Mask Artefact?
A: Yes, the Counter Offensive Stratagem allows a unit
to fight outside of the normal fight order (i.e. the
Stratagem does not give a unit the ability to fight first in
the Fight phase, it simply instructs you to pick a unit and
fight with it next).

From the new faq.

So we just lost half the utility of the mask. And in my mind the good half.
We pick a unit we want to go last they pick a unit they want to go next, its always going to be the same unit, because thats the most dangerous one. Sure it cost 2 command points but they were going to spend them any way. Or they weren't becuase they don't care the the unit we vex goes last. If they have 2 dangerous units the counter-offence the one we vex and attack normally with the other one.

This took a really powerful artifact with a cool ablity to a basic ignores overwatch relic. All the ingnores overwatch relics also do something else. Ours does too on paper but in practice I don't think it will with the new change.

It doesnt effect me at all honestly, i used it to stop chargers from charging me, If i have 3 Talos or 9 Grots with my Haemonculus near, and they charge, i'll use it, b.c they are the charging unit they can no use Counter-offensive Stratagem (unless they multi-charge, but if they did that then i already made mistakes), If im charging its against non-melee units so i dont care if they spend CP to ignore it.

The Mask nerf is rather frustrating because I think the exact opposite was ruled for Paroxysm in the previous FAQ (i.e. you cannot interrupt). However, the main benefit is usually in your opponent's turn anyway, so I'll still take it every time. They are still spending 2CP and if it's game changing important you can always Vect it.

ryuken87 wrote:
The Mask nerf is rather frustrating because I think the exact opposite was ruled for Paroxysm in the previous FAQ (i.e. you cannot interrupt). However, the main benefit is usually in your opponent's turn anyway, so I'll still take it every time. They are still spending 2CP and if it's game changing important you can always Vect it.

I don't use vect. I use the mask.

So with the new WD Ynnari around the corner we can now take the Ynnari HQ's in normal Drukhari lists is anyone brewing some lists that replace our duplicate HQs in battalion with Ynnari HQs instead? Obviously they are costly but adding some psychic could be nice for us. I'm personally going to try jamming The Yncarne because the model is gorgeous and i like how it allows "big brain" plays

VladimirHerzog wrote:
So with the new WD Ynnari around the corner we can now take the Ynnari HQ's in normal Drukhari lists is anyone brewing some lists that replace our duplicate HQs in battalion with Ynnari HQs instead? Obviously they are costly but adding some psychic could be nice for us. I'm personally going to try jamming The Yncarne because the model is gorgeous and i like how it allows "big brain" plays

I've been contemplating this list:



I thought it would be fun to play a Kabalite-heavy list, in the style of some of the older DE armies. It was going to be a Poison Tongue list but I thought it could be interesting to try it with Ynnari instead. Basically trading a weak poison buff for better HQs and some psychic powers.

Any thoughts?

Also, regarding the Ynnari psykers, which powers do you think are best for Dark Eldar?

A mostly ranged Kabal list isn't going to want to be run as Ynnari. You're literally losing out on an army-wide buff in exchange for almost nothing but a single HQ being slightly stronger.

In terms of beneficial psychic powers, it depends on what you're running. In a Ynnari detachment Shield of Ynnead and Unbind Souls are probably your top priority, if you're taking Yvraine or the Yncarne in a Drukhari detachment you'll want Gaze of Ynnead and... something else. Word of the Phoenix could be a decent self-buff if you want to make them more durable, Ancestor's Grace and Unbind Souls will help them both in combat. Storm of Whispers doesn't do enough in most circumstances to justify taking it.

 Burnage wrote:
A mostly ranged Kabal list isn't going to want to be run as Ynnari. You're literally losing out on an army-wide buff in exchange for almost nothing but a single HQ being slightly stronger.

And psychic powers but I take your point.

That said, what DE units would you recommend using with Ynnari?

You say that I shouldn't use ranged units but it seems melee units don't really gain much benefit either. They still have PfP so Soulburst is going to be redundant from turn 3 onwards anyway (bar a few edge cases). Wyches seem to get minimal benefit out of it - especially compared to their own Cult bonuses. And Coven and Mandrakes are off-limits entirely.

 Burnage wrote:
In terms of beneficial psychic powers, it depends on what you're running. In a Ynnari detachment Shield of Ynnead and Unbind Souls are probably your top priority, if you're taking Yvraine or the Yncarne in a Drukhari detachment you'll want Gaze of Ynnead and... something else. Word of the Phoenix could be a decent self-buff if you want to make them more durable, Ancestor's Grace and Unbind Souls will help them both in combat. Storm of Whispers doesn't do enough in most circumstances to justify taking it.

That's useful, cheers.

 vipoid wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
A mostly ranged Kabal list isn't going to want to be run as Ynnari. You're literally losing out on an army-wide buff in exchange for almost nothing but a single HQ being slightly stronger.

And psychic powers but I take your point.

That said, what DE units would you recommend using with Ynnari?

You say that I shouldn't use ranged units but it seems melee units don't really gain much benefit either. They still have PfP so Soulburst is going to be redundant from turn 3 onwards anyway (bar a few edge cases). Wyches seem to get minimal benefit out of it - especially compared to their own Cult bonuses. And Coven and Mandrakes are off-limits entirely.

Well, think about how the psychic powers buff a ranged Kabal list (and the list you posted in particular).

Word of the Phoenix's best case scenario is that it brings back a Scourge or heals your HQs or Court units for D3 wounds. Not terrible, but not astoundingly useful.

Unbind Souls helps your Archon and Court, nothing else. Could be replicated on your Archon by Hatred Eternal (and more effectively, because it would also apply to ranged weaponry).

Shield of Ynnead is useless for your embarked troops and vehicles, because they already have a 5++. Best case scenario here is that your Lhamaeans or Scourges get a 5++ - not tremendously helpful when the Scourges already have an innate 6++ and the Lhamaeans are worth a total of 45 points.

Ancestor's Grace has an edge use case for Scourges, but aside from that it's the same buff that your Archon provides except it only affects a single unit.

These buffs, even combined with Strength From Death, really pale in comparison to the benefits that a Kabal Obsession would bring. Black Heart and Flayed Skull in particular.

I think the best Ynnari DE detachment is almost certainly going to consist of Wych Cult units alongside a token Archon to take advantage of Shield of Ynnead and the multiple reroll-wounds abilities, but even then I'm not hugely convinced that it's worth taking over native DE.

 Burnage wrote:

Well, think about how the psychic powers buff a ranged Kabal list (and the list you posted in particular).

Word of the Phoenix's best case scenario is that it brings back a Scourge or heals your HQs or Court units for D3 wounds. Not terrible, but not astoundingly useful.

Unbind Souls helps your Archon and Court, nothing else. Could be replicated on your Archon by Hatred Eternal (and more effectively, because it would also apply to ranged weaponry).

Shield of Ynnead is useless for your embarked troops and vehicles, because they already have a 5++. Best case scenario here is that your Lhamaeans or Scourges get a 5++ - not tremendously helpful when the Scourges already have an innate 6++ and the Lhamaeans are worth a total of 45 points.

Ancestor's Grace has an edge use case for Scourges, but aside from that it's the same buff that your Archon provides except it only affects a single unit.

These buffs, even combined with Strength From Death, really pale in comparison to the benefits that a Kabal Obsession would bring. Black Heart and Flayed Skull in particular.

Just a point but Ancestor's Grace could be used on a Ravager (especially if the Archon is going forward with his court), otherwise I take your point.

 Burnage wrote:

I think the best Ynnari DE detachment is almost certainly going to consist of Wych Cult units alongside a token Archon to take advantage of Shield of Ynnead and the multiple reroll-wounds abilities

The issue with Wyches is that the best units are the super-fast Jetbikes and it seems like Yvraine would seriously struggle to keep up with them.

 Burnage wrote:
I think the best Ynnari DE detachment is almost certainly going to consist of Wych Cult units alongside a token Archon to take advantage of Shield of Ynnead and the multiple reroll-wounds abilities, but even then I'm not hugely convinced that it's worth taking over native DE.

Sadly, I think you're right.

It's a shame because I really like the flavour of the Ynnari artefacts and warlord traits but the benefits really are crap and having to take a special character just to use them makes it feel like I'm hamstringing myself for the privilege of having a worse army.